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Everything posted by Kevin Biestra
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Chris Pronger was still under contract and getting paid when they rushed him in if I remember right.
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Wayne Babych was a stud. He was looking like he was en route to the Hall of Fame just like Tim Kerr and Barry Pederson before he got taken out by injuries early on. Calder finalist in his rookie year, 54 goals in his third season on a team where he wasn't benefiting from a Gretzky, Hawerchuk, Savard or Stastny dishing out the puck. It was Babych, Federko and Brian Sutter driving the offense. Then he got injured the next season and he was never the same.
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I'm not quite sure what your point of disagreement was with me about boxing or MMA, and I'm still trying to clarify or figure it out, or forget about it which is fine too. I can barely remember at this point what I was trying to say but I guess it was that hugging is basically a way of signalling to the referee that you don't want to continue the fight in hockey (come on get in here refs) and it's often mutual with both fighters. You can hug to "avoid a fight" in boxing or MMA, or it can be used as part of a strategy like dirty boxing against the wall...but more often than not it's not part of a very active offensive strategy. It's usually resting or neutralizing the other guy's offense or part of a slow moving low risk attempt to get a better position which may be active and interesting, or maybe not. You don't really see much standing and prolonged hugging between MMA fighters if it isn't against the fence, and the only time I can really think of it is when both fighters are exhausted like hockey players and just want it to end (something like Kimbo Slice vs. Dada 5000). The Smyl clip was just for fun. You don't see a lot of judo in hockey so you have to appreciate it when it happens.
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What are you saying about MMA exactly? GSP wasn't known for hugging standing up, he was known for taking guys down and hugging them on the ground. This quite often results in the fighters being stood up and separated, though it didn't happen often with GSP. And he didn't really become a hugger / blanket until after the Serra fight. By the way, here's Stan Smyl with the greatest takedown in hockey history.
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He said guys who were almost done / in their 30s. However, I would have the Sedins in the HOF.
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All four of those are fighters I didn't really enjoy watching that much. Also...you can and often do hug to put an end a hockey fight. You generally just get separated and are made to keep fighting in boxing and MMA. So yeah, Brashear would probably beat Odjick in a fight, possibly with a lot of hugging, but I much preferred watching Odjick and so did the fans generally speaking. Just like Lennox Lewis beat Mike Tyson, but I know whose fights I wanted to see more.
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Locks to get in... Erik Karlsson, Duncan Keith, Chara, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Toews, Patrick Kane, Thornton, Stamkos, Bergeron Probably... Weber, Doughty, Quick (probably but then again, Barrasso and Vernon), Marc Andre Fleury, Anze Kopitar, Ryan Getzlaf, Corey Perry, Henrik Lundqvist, Carey Price, Brent Burns A Little over 50% chance... Marleau, Sergei Bobrovsky, Nicklas Backstrom, John Tavares, Brad Marchand (yuck) A Little under 50% chance... Eric Staal, Ryan Miller, Pekka Rinne, Kris Letang, Phil Kessel, Claude Giroux
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Yeah to me Tonelli is almost right on par with Gillies. Gillies didn't even get 700 points in his career. He was one of the Bure, Neely, Lindros types. He was basically shot at 29. The four Cups get him in, but apparently not for Tonelli who is almost a 1,000 point player with WHA included - which I think it actually should be for players. I would have Tonelli's peaks above Kesler's. He was a 2nd team all star twice. Plus four Stanley Cups, six Finals and his legendary Canada Cup. A 100 point season and a Selke finalist one time as well. I think Huddy retired at about 11th all time for career playoff points by a defenseman, something most people wouldn't appreciate. He's at 22nd now after another 25 years.
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Yeah I have Lowe at the very low end of a Hall of Famer but it's not an abomination. If it opens the door to discuss guys like John Tonelli, Charlie Simmer, Rick Martin, Brian Propp and so on then I'm not opposed to it. The thing with Lowe is that Charlie Huddy is basically a hair's breadth below him. Anyway, Kesler is a 1000 game, 500 point Selke winner. He has a better case than several other Selke winners and a worse case than some. People saying Kesler shouldn't even be discussed before being discarded by the selection committee are selling the guy short. I wouldn't induct him but he's definitely in the category of players where you make a note when they are eligible and talk about it.
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He should be close to a first ballot entry for the US Hockey Hall of Fame. He more than meets that standard. They are all good players in there but Kesler is well above Aaron Broten. I'd have him above Tony Amonte, Dave Christian, Chris Drury, Tony Granato etc. and getting reasonably close to Neal Broten.
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Yeah those were the two that people talked crap about. Maybe it was just the Blue Oyster Bar mustaches, who knows. That actually does kind of look like Glenn Anderson in the studded leather mask...
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I suppose McDavid goes without saying as well. I think Erik Karlsson gets in even if he retires tomorrow. Probably not first ballot but eventually under the Lindros / Neely / Bure formula. Even though Neely didn't really have to wait.
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Agreed that he's closer than people think. He was a finalist five times and he was second for the Selke twice, once to Datsyuk and once to Bergeron. I said elsewhere that the list of players who were a finalist for the Selke five times is very short. It really is. Even two time winners usually don't get nominated another three times. And several very good players won one and were never a finalist again. Bergeron is a complete anomaly with his ten nominations, it has been like the Dionne, Hawerchuk, Savard, Stastny, Trottier etc. just competing for second best in the 80s after Gretzky.
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Should might be another question but I think Chara, Kane, Toews, Malkin, Hedman, Stamkos and maybe Doughty and Bergeron will be first ballot as well.
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Bergeron is the class above Kesler, but that class is literally the greatest of all time. If there were a defensive forward hall of fame, Kesler would be in. The list of players who have been a Selke finalist five times is very, very, very short.
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Back in his playing days the big rumor was that he was gay. ZOMG oh no!
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Kesler's time in Anaheim is more impressive than people think. Selke finalist twice, I think two runs to the conference final. He played 44 playoff games for Anaheim, not that much less than his total in Vancouver. The Sedins played 6 playoff games after Kesler left. I wouldn't put Kesler in the Hall of Fame but he is in the group of players where you at least have a conversation about it when they retire. A thousand game, 500 point Selke winner with other achievements as well. I think he was a Selke finalist five times.
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I'd have had both Vernon and Barrasso in a long time ago. I don't think there's even much of a case to make against them.
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Good to see you. I wonder how much of Turgeon's rough times with the HOF committee has its origins in his chickening out of the brawl at the World Juniors. That seemed to follow him around, I guess just like whatever people don't like about Barrasso and didn't like about Glenn Anderson. I figure Turgeon eventually gets in just like Andreychuk did. He just has too many points to sit on the outside forever. Tim Kerr was guaranteed to get into the Hall of Fame without those injuries. Kerr had the big seasons, Propp had the longevity and the playoff runs, and neither quite got over the hump. Kerr is really a lot like Charlie Simmer when you look at the numbers. Barry "not Cam Neely" Pederson was also en route to the Hall of Fame as well before his shoulder problems. Who knows what that guy would have done, he was insanely good in Boston, more or less opened his career with three 100 point (ish) seasons. In his second and third years he was 3rd and 4th for the post-season All-Star team. At CENTER. In the 80s.