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Everything posted by The Lock
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This seems more like a "chicken or the egg" question. On one hand, one could make the argument you just brought up by saying the players developed. On the other hand, one could also make the argument that those players don't develop without the proper support in place from the coaching staff and the GM. Realistically, you probably need both at the end of the day and there probably isn't a single factor that caused that changed.
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Well this is why I'm asking you rather than assuming. I'm trying to figure out where you stand so that a better conversation could be had if a better conversation exists. I do think that, if another leader comes in (or steps up from the existing group) then at least it shouldn't even matter if Miller's a leader or not. A letter is just a letter at the end of the day in my opinion and people will look up to whoever they want to look up to.
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I will say that the one thing that concerns me with Green lately is how he's been blaming everything else but himself. I've seen him blame the players. I've seen him blame the officiating. So when it comes to himself, I can't help but ask if he's avoiding blaming himself so as not to put the topic on his job security? I can't see him having that security anymore and I can only imagine he's knows this for a fact.
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But how do you know that's the problem for sure though? I'm not going to say it isn't at all, but how do you actually know? In fact, for argument sake, let's say it is Miller. What do you suggest? We trade him or just bring in another leader while keeping his skill? Are you just suggesting he's not a leader or are you straight up "anti-Miller"? And I'm sure Tippett was part of the solution in Edmonton, but he wasn't the only solution either. They also have Holland as GM and their team makeup is different. But, then one can argue it wasn't in their core group at all since all those guys are still there.
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You can do all of the finger pointing in the world at this point, but the fact of the matter is, no one outside of that locker room is going to truly know the answer to your question. For all we know, it might not even be Green that's the problem but it could be one of the "leaders" on the team. It could even just be the makeup of the team causing the issue and not having one of the veterans we had before. It could even be someone like Beagle not being there for all we know since we did get rid of a lot of vets in the off season. It could be the assistant coaches. It could be Benning. It could even be covid's hampering affects on our players making them tired for all we know. Basicaly, we don't know. Remember how Edmonton went through a coaching graveyard a couple of years back? They had all the talent in the world but no drive. Perhaps that's our problem now, which would lead to the question: what changed in Edmonton for the better?
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There was a disagreement on where the team should go and Linden left. That's all it has to be. It doesn't mean Linden hates Benning's guts or his character. It means there was a disagreement. That's it. All of this hating someone's character is unknown at best so assuming such a thing is what I'm talking about with the immature part. I get that people want to speculate on things and make things up in place of what they don't know, but that doesn't make that stuff correct. If enlightening is about basing things on what we know and what we don't, then consider my job here to be done, unless of course you have proof that there were character arguments, then enlighten me with your proof. I'm willing to listen.
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I think just because someone parts ways with someone else, it's not always due to character issues. It could have easily been due to ideas on where the team should be headed. So to think Linden would "concur" or not seems kind of silly and immature to me when it likely wasn't due to Benning's character to begin with. I think people overthink situations way too much, which I understand since not a lot is known to begin with and people want to fill in the gaps but, as a result of that, is unlikely to be accurate at all.
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It's also why I tend to go into drafts with little expectation. If we select a player I want, it doesn't mean it was the right or wrong pick. If we select a player I don't want, it's the exact same thing. Simply put, no one can predict the future. Also (and this is going off in a bit of a tangent), I can see the purpose of being excited for the future, since it's something to look forward to, but I don't see the purpose of thinking the future is doomed. Mindset is everything in this day and age and there is such a thing as having the right mindset and having the wrong mindset.
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I think points can come later for a guy like Woo. He needs a niche on the team if he wants to make the big squad. He needs to give Green a reason to call him up and have him stay on the Canucks roster and I think worrying about points could detract from that in this specific case. I say concentrate on being a solid defender 1st and then, only once he's on the main team, points be thought of if points are even necessary with him.
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Let me explain. It felt more like you were piggybacking off of what I said with something I don't believe is happening, at least not to the extent in which you describe it. That's why it felt like you were twisting my words to fit another agenda. It's most likely in the way it was presented in which it had that effect.
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Here's a very recent article on the matter: https://www.fearthefin.com/2019/2/27/18242765/2019-nhl-trade-deadline-jonathan-dahlen-vancouver-canucks-jim-benning-san-jose-sharks-barracuda While that article doesn't specifically mention who wanted the trade, there's no other reason why an agent would actually request something get done and it's pretty evident there was some animosity happening at the time. There are other articles out there that do claim Dahlen requested a trade. I just felt this article was more relevant at the moment. Also, for the record, I'm unlikely to respond to most of your posts at this point. I don't see you as being someone I care to have a discussion with. I don't know if it's an English barrier or what, but there's always some weird disconnect with you between what's being said and what's actually going on and, as much as I've tried to be nice and give you logic, you clearly aren't willing to listen to logic.
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The only thing I feel like I'm witnessing at the moment is some of the worst threads started by a single OP that I've seen in my 10+ years here. I get being frustrated by where we are at at the moment but the titles of these threads are what I would expect from reading a newspaper by a political propaganda machine.
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I was hesitant on this at first admitedly, but having gone to bars and restaurants with the passport, I feel much safer actually being at those places knowing everyone is vaccinated. From a selfish personal standpoint, I'm kind of liking it at this point. It sucks for the people who have medical reasons to not get vaccinated, but a lot of those people probably shouldn't be going to the bars and restaurants right now anyway. As much as it may feel like an invasion of privacy, I also don't think it's fair for the majority to suffer because there are a few who have their conspiracy theories about vaccines or are scared to take them. There's 2 sides to all of this and I think the frustration of the vaccinated who want this virus to go away should also be considered here.
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Maybe he couldn't be traded for more of a sure thing. It's easy to assume he's worth more, but that doesn't mean he is and demanding a trade lowers his value. Holding onto him would have lowered that value even more. If a player requests a trade, he's not going to be productive for your team. He's not going to be that goal-scorer for you. He's not going to want to play for your team. It's too late at that point. Honestly, I think you are in some unrealistic reality with this. You want to think we could have done better and I don't blame you for that, but I just don't think it's reality in this case. It's wishful thinking and trying to put a demerit on a GM who had his hands tied behind his back.
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If you are a boss of an employee and that employee requests a move and you move that employee, should that go in your performance review? To add context to this question, the employee is not ready to do the work effectively but may be able to later if they are willing to put the work in; however, the employee doesn't want to be there so that employee doesn't want to do the work. Should that actually go under your performance review as a boss? Personally I think Benning did the right thing, so I disagree that it should be in the negative column.
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I havne't been on here in a few days so this is a late reply, but what you are stating here was not my intention with my post you replied to. The statistics do what is possible given the circumstances. They aren't going to be entirely accurate since you can't control what people do. This does not traslate to having very bad science. This just translates to needing to consider that there are going to be more cases of covid than what's being presented by the media. This isn't some erosion of logic. If anything, the erosion of logic is coming from the people who want to make stuff up against the government and make people scared of taking vaccinations. Also, the only reason why it may seem like people are more afraid now is because this virus is more public than anything we've had in the past century. It's arguably even more public than the spanish flu at this point. I'm going to be honest with you, if you can't condone lying to combat lying by the other side, then don't be a hypocrite with it. You're doing the exact same thing here if you want to twist my words like this. Quick Edit/Addition: I also want to point out that we are in a time where the right wing is truly right wing in a lot of places, basically more right wing than normal, and I think this is what's caused a massive divide that we haven't seen before. It's forced both sides to dig their feet in the sand and not be willing to budge and literally millions of people are dying in the world because of it. I get that there are cases of underlying health conditions where people shouldn't get vaccinated and in no way would I tell those people to get vaccinated, but beyond that, people really need to put their health and other people's health above whatever conspiracy theories they have and it saddens me to see people twisting my own words just to fit their own agenda.
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Even if management isn't "obligated" to trade him, if he doesn't want to be here, you can't just make things instantly better. How would trading him later have fixed thing? Make the same trade and get the same return but a year later? What you are suggesting literally does nothing to help the situation. If anything, it would make things worse. Just look at the Eichel trade for comparison. Buffalo waited a long time to make the trade and they got way less than they probably would have before everything else went down. Waiting on a player who wants out typically lowers the value over the time, not the other way around. So what exactly does management have to wear here? There's nothing to wear and I think what you're suggesting is a terrible idea. To be clear, I don't think Benning is right about everything (in fact, there are a number of things I disagree with), but trading players when they request a trade is not one of those disagreements. I like the fact that we aren't letting such issues become an achilles heal. Seriously, when has holding onto a player who has requested a trade ever actually benefitted the team? I'd genuinely like to know because I think most cases it doesn't.
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Personally, I don't really see how it was a bad trade given: 1) He demanded a trade in the 1st place 2) He might not have panned out here anyway due to his attitude which demanded the trade in the 1st place People are quick to look at how a player is doing now and wish it could have been here. I get it, but it probably wasn't going to happen here anyway. Would you rather have Dahlen handicap management by keeping him in the NHL if he wasn't ready? This is a player who literally got sent back to Sweden after the trade, so clearly it wasn't just us thinking he needed time.to develop. Some thing just aren't meant to be in the end.
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Agreed. Sometimes I wonder about people who feel the need to criticize a 22 year old in the same manor as a player who has been in the league for years. It was clear that he had (and still has) some learning to do. However, he's found his niche on the team and has a solid foundation of skills (that more players can't even say that have) to build on. He's evidently a very studious player. Given that, he's going to continue to learn and develop. There may be hiccups here and there, but that's no reason to cause concern at this point as it's part of the learning process.
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Think of it this way. Have you ever known someone who told you the same negative story every time you hung out? The 1st, and even the 2nd time, is usually fine (and that's where what you say about nitpicking is true). It's when you start hearing the same thing over and over to the point where it's beyond nitpicking and just being someone who's being annoying and probably someone you don't want to hang out with at that point. Nitpicking's fine, so long as it's doesn't get to the point where it's just straight up complaining and not even being constructive, which is what repetition typically does. That being said, this is a Canucks forum and we have only so many things we can talk about in a single thread, but that's also why there are multiple discussions going on in the forum as a whole.
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Keep in mind that no matter what, we don't really know how many active cases there actually are. There's going to be people who get covid and not get tested. This could be due to then mistaking covid for something else. This could be due to them just immediately self-isolating without getting tested. This could be due to them not even having symptons. In any of those cases, those people are not going to count towards those numbers in the end.
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[Signing] Flames sign Jacob Markstrom
The Lock replied to -Vintage Canuck-'s topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
None of this says otherwise about what mll or what I said earlier. You talk about dishonesty. How about you start being honest yourself because you're not exactly showing yourself as being an honest person. Just covering your ears going "lalala I can't hear you" does not make you right or "logical", it makes you ignorant. I've listened to what you've said. I've questioned what you've said to try and move the conversation to something productive. I didn't expect to get anything out of it because I know the kind of poster you are, but at least I can say I've tried to reason with you. There is no reasoning with you in the end unfortunately. I would love to have had a productive conversation with you. Too bad you don't seem to want to let that happen. -
[Signing] Flames sign Jacob Markstrom
The Lock replied to -Vintage Canuck-'s topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
No I read them quite well. You might want to read my words. You literally agreed with what I said because my point was literally that the logic in order for your scenario to happen was flawed. When I presented that logic you literally were like "strange way to talk about goalies". Yeah. It's strange which is why your logic is flawed. lol