theo5789
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(Signing)Mark Stone ext. 8 years AVV 9.5 mil
theo5789 replied to Wayne Glensky's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
Whatever perception Ferland has in terms of physicality, it is certainly more than what we have now. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't overpay for Ferland either, but if it's a choice between Ferland or Dzingel, then I'd choose Ferland, but yes his health and potential contract demands are worrisome, so I'm not really pushing for the idea either. Dzingel may be decent, especially if he can hit at least 60 points with us, but my point is that just doesn't seem like enough of an upgrade. If this contract year for him is just a surge and say he drops back to a 45-50 point guy, well it's just not much of an improvement over what we have already. It's not like Dzingel is "proven" which is why I brought up his history and we would be banking on him continuing to improve or at least remain consistent with his production now. It's a gamble to pay a guy his UFA price to come to a non-contender whether it's salary or term. I know Roussel is not the typical top 6 option, but he looked decent with Horvat and is also having career numbers. He will find himself throughout the lineup wherever needed. Eriksson just doesn't disappear for us (even though some may like to see that) and there are guys like Spooner as well. We have enough of a log jam as it is and it's not worth the juggling act for a minor upgrade IMO. I get what you're saying though, I just don't feel like Dzingel is the answer. -
(Signing)Mark Stone ext. 8 years AVV 9.5 mil
theo5789 replied to Wayne Glensky's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
Perhaps 6x6 is overboard, but he's going to try to cash in at his stage in his career, so it's whoever is going to pay him the most for as long as possible. Dzingel just isn't a player I feel is worth whatever that may be. Maybe he can be signed for a 4x4 type deal, but then he will probably look at going to a contender instead. -
(Signing)Mark Stone ext. 8 years AVV 9.5 mil
theo5789 replied to Wayne Glensky's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
Only reason Ferland is of more interest to me is simply because he provides an element to our top 6 that we are lacking. I don't think Lee will be available either which is why I'm not even looking at him. There are certainly positives to Dzingel's game that is intriguing, but he will likely be overpaid for what he provides. As a 2nd liner type, we already have too many as it is. Baertschi if he can stay healthy is a 2nd liner. Leivo while not having the numbers looks to fit into a 2nd liner role (at least he provides some physicality and his skill set seems better than his points would indicate). Pearson has been and currently in around his 40-45 point pace. Goldobin doesn't seem like he will get to the 2nd liner role unfortunately. So with that said, I'm comfortable going into next season with Baertschi, Leivo and Pearson taking up the top 3 LW spots and Dzingel may be out de facto 1st line LW, but he's not a major upgrade to that group. Keep in mind we also have Spooner who is also capable of getting into that 40-45 point range. There's also a possibility next season that we will have a center's crunch which may push one out to a wing spot. I agree that Panarin and EK are likely not to sign here, but they are the type of guys that will be worth their contracts despite the high price because there is a trickle down effect for what they provide and knowing they will be your top guys. Back to Dzingel, assuming he's looking for term and dollars (eg 6x6), it's no sure thing that he could even hold onto that top LW spot on our team, so for his potential price, it's not enough of an improvement to what we have is the point I'm trying to make. And this like you've mentioned about Myers is the reason why I would avoid the "middling" guys. Just realized, I almost completely forgot about Roussel as well, which just furthers that I'm fine heading into next season without a "top 6" winger signing unless it's a team changing one. -
(Signing)Mark Stone ext. 8 years AVV 9.5 mil
theo5789 replied to Wayne Glensky's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
Should we bother with middling UFAs? They will be just as overpriced (overvalued) as the top end guys but with far more risk of not panning out to the expectations. Dzingel is having a career year (with 52 points in 71 games so far), but he's 27 and doesn't have a whole lot of history of consistency. He might be looking for a 6x6 type deal. If he's willing to take 4 million a season, then I'll consider it, but that seems unlikely. He certainly won't make a big enough difference for me (not a huge upgrade on what we have) to have him plug up another forward spot and it's unlikely he signs a short term deal. Panarin and EK are going to be pricey, but they will bring their games. They will change a team. I rather target the big fish and forget about the middling guys. If the big fish don't want to sign here, then we just continue on our path without an accelerated UFA boost. I can understand the value of someone like Stralman to go with our young guys and he probably won't get a long enough deal to worry about him long term. Myers IMO is another middling guy that I wouldn't be bothered with unless he signs a bargain deal. Ferland is another guy that I can understand why we would be interested in, so if his price isn't outrageous, then I'd consider him. -
But wait, don't forget the 12 hits! What's also comical is that most will forget/ignore the fact that Benning got Schenn and a pick (7th) for Del Zotto who we had signed for free and wasn't playing for us by the time he was traded. But people will still remember that Del Zotto was moved for a 6th at the TDL and will likely add it to the Benning poor asset management/doesn't know how to trade/bad pro scouting list. On the flip side, Schenn is cheap, will likely clear waivers so would be a decent call up option if re-signed. If Schenn does end up being a regular player for us, then I sure hope we are bolstering our top 4 (eg signing EK) to eat up the majority of the minutes.
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Well the trade was a dman for a winger. Usually dmen have more value which is probably why Pittsburgh was willing to take the extra year of salary. Pearson certainly wasn't having a good season and it was a gamble to take him on if he couldn't get his game back in order. I liked Gudbranson and still don't believe he deserved the criticism he had recieved here. With that said, I remembered liking Pearson during the games against us when he was in LA. I remember him being a very fast player and burning our defense a couple of times in one game. He didn't seem to have this breakaway speed that I saw when he first got here, so I'm not sure if it's the league just faster and caught up to him or if he's lost a step, both of which could've also accounted for his decrease in production this year. I remain cautiously optimistic about Pearson because even Leipsic had a good final stretch of games to close out the year for us after being traded, then fizzled the next season. We will have a major logjam next season, so it'll be interesting how Benning is going to sort out the roster. Spooner has had 3 assists in 6 games, Baertschi is aiming for a return and Goldobin looked more inspired before being sat out once again. Leivo has looked really good despite not having the best point output (16 points in 42 games with the Canucks). Add in Boeser, Virtanen, Granlund, Eriksson, Motte and even Schaller, plus whichever other young player(s) are vying for a spot and there just too many. Even at center with Gaudette looking to stick is going to push someone out at center possibly or one center is also going to be shifted to wing adding to the logjam.
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What Guaranteed Draft Position? With Simulators, Current #8
theo5789 replied to TheGuardian_'s topic in Canucks Talk
Or maybe like more recently we pick a player that ends up being the best of the draft despite not picking at the top like we did for Pettersson. -
(Signing)Mark Stone ext. 8 years AVV 9.5 mil
theo5789 replied to Wayne Glensky's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
Add in the fact that he got a full NMC for the duration of the contract as well, so he may have taken a "discount" for that as well. Stone is excellent, but not quite worth that much. Still better than the Nylander contract though. -
(Signing)Mark Stone ext. 8 years AVV 9.5 mil
theo5789 replied to Wayne Glensky's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
This is why +/- is a misleading stat. Boeser is in a completely sheltered offense role. We have signed the UFAs that we did to insulate players like Boeser, Goldobin, and even Pettersson from the rigors of defensive minutes. They provide most of the offense so they generate more opportunities for themselves to gain more pluses. On the other hand, guys like Beagle, Motte and Eriksson get the minuses facing the hard matchups and have very little opportunity in the offensive end of the ice because they aren't deployed in that way. To break it down a bit, Boeser has had 36 even strength point and is a +6, therefore he's has 30 even strength goals against while he was on the ice. Motte has 12 even strength points and is a -10, so he's been on the ice for 22 even strength goals. Considering the competition they face and their deployment, it's obvious that Motte is a better defensive player in this most simplest way of looking at it. So with that said, +/- to me is not a very clear indicator of defensive work. Stone however had been used as a PKer for Ottawa (played 1:20 a night on the PK), something that Boeser doesn't see at all. It's safe to say that Stone is a more trusted defensive player. Boeser may be strong on the puck, but he doesn't engage. He's no Sedin in terms of board work either. Stone provides the board work along with engaging physically in more of a power forward way. Stone had 51 hits in 59 games for Ottawa (11 more hits in 5 games with Vegas). Hits are a bit subjective depending on the hit counter as some minor bumps are considered hits, but Boeser has 12 in 55 games in comparison, so while Boeser may be strong on the puck, he's certainly not as physical as Stone. This is fine though as it's not Boeser's game, but it's an addition to Stone's game. Stone hasn't been able to play full season's lately, but neither has Boeser. Stone has better numbers of late and he had UFA years bought (I think maybe Stone got overpaid by about a million annually). If Boeser is confident in himself, he should sign a bridge deal (2-3 years for 5-5.5 million) or ensure he gets paid and take a longer term deal like a 6x6. IMO I think this is a reasonable offer for a currently RFA one dimensional scoring forward. -
Remember Shinkaruk for Granlund? This type of comment was common when that trade happened. Granlund has been far more useful to us than Shinkaruk was (and for any other team at this point). Edmonton had a whole load of scorers and playmakers (high end ones) and where did that lead them? We want to develop players to be NHLers and want players willing to buy into the system. It's a team game, not just focusing on your own individual accolades.
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Define "better". Would a 50 point offense only player be better than a 35 point center that plays both ends of the ice? Offensively better, but better team player? How is it fair to see in a year when Dahlen has had two more years of development? I think Goldobin is likely the competition for Dahlen, so maybe they should be compared in the long run.
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Gaudette was to be signed or allowed to go for a 4th year in college and open up the possibility of hitting free agency (imagine the scrutiny of management had this happened). Dahlen didn't want to stay last year. It was thought because he had mono in preseason, so it would be best for him to have another developmental year in Sweden. It's looking more like he didn't want to put in the time in the AHL. He would've been one year more into his NA development had he stayed last year and maybe had a real crack this preseason (which we still gave him a decent look and wasn't good enough yet). Palmu was an overager when drafted already. He had an impressive camp and earned himself a contract. He was sent back to Finland and still remains Canuck property. He's no longer in the jam and is still developing in a men's league. But he's a 7th rounder, so an AHL regular would be a success for him. Gadjovich was already a man amongst boys. There was no reason for him to go back to juniors. Lind had progressed a lot in Junior and didn't have much left to prove there either. Both him and Gadj have been improving as the season has gone on for them.
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Thinking Cull needs to be shown the door for his developmental ability in less than a season is as ridiculous as Dahlen asking for a trade in the same amount of time. What exactly was the expectations for our prospects after 60 games in the professional level? Could it even remotely be possible that the prospects may not be as good as they're hyped up to be yet? Can't handle Europeans? People seem to forget that Palmu is a 5'6 overager 7th rounder. He was a long shot to begin with and it wasn't like he was forced to leave. Guys like Lind and Gadjovich were already not getting minutes and this route allowed Palmu to gain more minutes (and in turn opened up more time for Lind, Gadjovich, etc). He's still Canucks property should he find another level to his game. Only other Euros he had a chance to work with other than Dahlen are Jasek (who's still with the team) and Juolevi (injured early on). Doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence to back this claim up here.
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He'll be fine, he's a big boy. He will find new friends here. It's like moving your kids to a new school and worrying if they were adapt. Most kids usually do. In this case, EP isn't even moving so he's got his buddies here. Dahlen is more of the concern without his buddy in EP, but perhaps the SJ system will cheer him up.
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When a player goes to their agent to go above the Utica management, it's likely to complain and potentially make a request. If it's simply a question of deployment or whatever, you talk to your coaches about that man to man. "Voicing concerns" in what sounds like a very diplomatic way of dealing with it is unlikely to lead to a trade. If this has been discussed for a while and Dahlen got to the point where he wanted out, well that likely means he's been complaining since he got here. Let's keep in mind that we wanted him here last year to get started on seasoning him in the AHL. He chose to go back to Timra which was fine, but wasn't going to bypass him from playing in the AHL especially considering it wasn't even the top league in Sweden. It would appear he never wanted to play in the AHL, but wasn't good enough not to. We will see where his career leads to.
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Considering that the issue is that Dahlen isn't ready to play a 200 ft game at the NHL level yet and you want to sit guys that are actually defensively responsible, then yes it may have hurt. We have been right up in the playoff hunt until maybe this past week and a but of a hot streak puts us right back in. If someone like Goldobin had been injured, then I can see maybe giving him a look in that sheltered offensive player role, but Goldy's been healthy (which is a rarity on our team). Dane Fox had chemistry with McDavid in juniors and no one is even considering giving him a shot in Edmonton. History is history and it may not translate to the next level especially if one doesn't put in the same effort or willingness to grow along with his peer. Dahlen should've seen his buddy and asked for some advice from him rather than complain to his agent to the point where regardless of whatever he had said, it lead to what was believed to be a trade demand which was met. For him to continue to whine after the fact that the team didn't hold him back and met his (or his agent's) demand just continues to show his character. I was rooting for him and hope he figures things out because it would be a shame for his talent to go to waste. If he doesn't, well it's on him. He may not like the way our development is, but sometimes you don't appreciate the lessons being taught until after you've made it (think of a teenager's mentality and listening to their parents).
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A professional listens to the ones that tell him how to make the NHL. You do what you're asked of if you want to make it. By saying it's not the proper way to develop him, well what does he know about making the NHL? Because his dad made it? Not to say that the Canucks cannot learn from this and hopefully it fine tunes the development process. But when Dahlen suggests he didn't ask for a trade, either he's lying or there was some miscommunication from the agent and management and then that comes down to the agent being at fault for not portraying the right message. Despite everything Goldobin has taken during his development, he hasn't complained once (aside from the one word comment by Larionov which wasn't taken as a trade demand) and probably why the team continues to try to work with him and hope it all clicks one day. This whole thing has made me appreciate Goldobin a bit more. I hope Dahlen figures it out that he needs to listen to make the NHL as it seems like he has the drive and talent to be impactful.
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Is that a direct quote from Dahlen? Goldobin also put up amazing numbers in the AHL but clearly needed a lot of work (and still does) to be an NHLer. Putting up numbers is not all that is needed to become an NHL player. I can pretty much guarantee that the way you've portrayed the situation is not how it played out. Seems more like Dahlen is playing the victim card to rid himself of any wrongdoing while trying smear the Canucks organization.
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The thing is I believe the coaching staff is trying to develop their players to play a support game. Pittsburgh is more advanced because of the vets they have that understand the support game. This is why we can simply play only young players and dump all the vets as some seem to want. Our young guys are learning to play at the NHL level. People criticize Green for being hard on Goldobin, but perhaps he isn't supporting his defense, etc. It's not simply one mistake made and he's benched, perhaps he's not playing in a consistent way to help the team advance or whatever. Virtanen had to go through a learning curve and has improved. Or on the other hand, this is why guys like Eriksson is liked because although his offense has dried up and he isn't worth his contract, he does the "little things" that make an effective team. So to me this is moreso a rebuild thing than perhaps a coaching/systens problem which I'm sure some will start jumping on. We have seen what this team can do when firing on all cylinders and they can be dangerous, but it's a long grind and with injuries and just mental exhaustion, it's understandable that there are inconsistencies while transitioning young players. This also extends to the Dahlen situation where maybe that's where the Canucks felt he wasn't ready yet. If Dahlen doesn't want to put in the effort to make it in the NHL level, we will see how far along he gets even with all the talent in the world. Now everyone has the effort level like a Pettersson. Boeser has been getting away with a lot because he's been a go to offensive player, but he needs to work on supporting his teammates.
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This is the classic case of I have no idea who this player is (not the "brand name") so he must have little potential. And it goes the other way, you hear a name enough and even when they are well past their potential growth, people still are hopeful though because of a name they've heard. With that said, I don't claim to know much about Karlsson, so I'm going to wait and see and hopefully find out more about him before wondering if we could've gotten more. Karlsson was only drafted last year, so it's basically the equivalent of gaining another pick from last year's draft (especially considering he seemed to be a pick that we were targetting in the 3rd round as well). He's been labelled as a 2 way center, but his potential seems to go beyond a 3rd line center. We hear time and time again that this player is at best 3rd line center. Sometimes these players breakthrough and show even more. Kesler had the 3rd line center title and eventually became a 2nd line center for us. Gaudette was likely viewed as a 4th line center /AHL fodder for us after being a 5th round pick and based on him having an incredible Hobey Baker season, he's progressed and seems like a guy that can continue climbing the ranks. I remember him making a comment that he wanted to compete for the 2nd line center spot (before EP took the reigns). And Tyler Madden, who we took in that very same 3rd round that Karlsson did, looks very promising to become even more than the "next John Madden" checking forward that some projected. Besides there isn't a Karlsson (Erik, William and Meller) in the league right now that I do not like!
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Canucks would be foolish to not offer him a contract. Question is whether they do so this year or next (hopefully he doesn't take himself to free agency). He's got tonnes of speed to burn, but just needs to stay healthy. I project him to be more of a 3rd/4th liner and maybe Hansen as a comparable. His offense is a bonus, but I think he will be a very effective PKer and checker.
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[Rumor] Panarin Interested in Vancouver
theo5789 replied to SuitnTie's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
Want to draw more viewership/readership? Just include Vancouver and Toronto into every rumour. -
Fits the bill of what Benning looks for in his picks. Well done Mikey!