Toews
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2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
I should have clarified that I meant top 5 picks. -
2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
The media always plays up the narrative that teams are seriously considering moving picks and not a single one has been traded after the draft order has been set in the past decade. Every single GM always answers that they are listening to offers but its just doing their due diligence more than anything. Having a top talent under team control for the next 7-8 years and on an ELC for 3 years is just too valuable to pass up unless you are getting a massive overpayment. So all this discussion about the 3rd pick is rather pointless, its fun because there is little to discuss but its still pointless. -
The Official European Football (Soccer) Thread
Toews replied to Scottish⑦Canuck's topic in Off-Topic General
While I am not a fan of either team, the thought of Real being the first team to complete a successful defense of the CL just fills with me revulsion and disgust. So I guess its Forza Juve for me. I get the feeling this one will be a snoozer, 0-0 penalties probably. -
Considering how you are lashing out and being defensive, somehow I doubt it was a "tongue & cheek" comment. More like you made a "braindead" comment and now you are backpedaling hard. Anyone that isn't "simpleminded" should know that sarcasm can often be hard to detect in text unlike speech... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law With the likes of Rob Zepp and canuckledraggin running around, you should convey sarcasm more effectively. @Jester13 Not to be a grammar police but the correct phrase is "tongue-in-cheek", just for future reference.
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Your comparison is entirely baseless. This is what I mean by illogical comments made just to pump Jake's tires. Bo was coming off an injury, those were his first pro games of his career and he hadn't played in weeks.
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2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
Teams also use the interviews to ask players about their teammates or players they might have played with in the past. I remember Eichel saying that his interviews had a lot of questions on Noah Hanifin. Don't read too much into the interviews. Its quite possible that they are interviewing Petersson to ask about someone like Liljegren. -
Jake's fitness actually gets brought up as a point in his favor. I give him credit for losing ~30 pounds and I do believe that he will be fit in camp next year but IMO it isn't going to fix the flaws in his game. I have made detailed posts outlining his flaws and where I hope to see him improve. Hardly anyone seemed to be interested in having that discussion. We aren't going to see an entirely different player just because he shed some weight. Jake still has a long ways to go. To me he needs to go down next year rather than be put in a 4th line role because that will be about as high as he will be on the roster. Even guys like Goldobin and Gaunce are well ahead of him. I wouldn't be surprised if Dahlen and Gaudette have better showings in camp as well.
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You do realize that every single prospect on that list went to the AHL to "learn how to be a professional" and improve their two way game? Most players on that list are in the AHL so that they can learn the pro game.
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Some people keep posting illogical comments though. The OP that Fors responded to made the claim that all young players are mediocre in the AHL. Comments like that need to be refuted with facts. Its not like people are $&!#ting on anyone who is just hoping for him to become better. But misrepresenting information to make over the top comments like the OP was doing needs to be called out. Also it seems like some individuals deliberately post baiting comments like "haters are nowhere to be found when Jake does well". I think these are the real trolls here, because the thread goes to hell right after that.
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What updates could you possibly hope to see in June? I mean if you want to see what he is up to, you are better off checking his instagram feed.
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I am pretty sure he prefers to live in reality instead. If you want to have a career in the NHL you have to do more than just hit and block shots. That can't be the extent of Jake's "game", even 4th liners now days are expected to produce. Evidently not because Goldobin certainly didn't look mediocre in the 3 games he went down to Comets for. He scored 4 goals in 3 games with the Comets, Jake scored 9 goals in 65 games. Nearly half of Jake's goal output and Jake played 62 more games. Jayson Megna and Michael Chaput made the Canucks roster. Not only would they make the Canucks they would be on the top line with Bo. Granlund and Baerstchi aren't much bigger than Ehlers, how much do they get pushed around on a team like the Canucks? To an extent all smaller skilled players get mugged in the NHL. Just take a look at what has happened to Crosby in this playoffs. They learn to play through it though, just because Ehlers plays with Laine and Scheifele doesn't mean he faces less abuse. Neither of those guys are big time fighters either, nor do they have much sandpaper to their game. Now you have entered the realm of the fanciful. Nylander has excelled at every level of hockey he has played at. He didn't suddenly improve because he played with Matthews. He always had the talent to be this good. If playing with a generational talent made a player significantly better Dane Fox would be sniping goals for the Canucks right now.
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2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
Megna and Chaput got minutes because this team has 0 depth and they are professionals who didn't show up out of shape in camp. Jake got too much of a leash rather than too little, Tryamkin was benched for 10 games for not being in shape yet golden boy Jake was still here at the start of year playing games despite being unable to take a proper shift. I do believe that the double standard the team showed for the 6th overall pick versus a 3rd round pick probably played a part in Tryamkin taking his talents to freaking Eastern Europe. In most cases players don't leave for Europe after having successful rookie seasons. I imagine it takes a lot for a player to forego more money, living in a beautiful city like Vancouver and living in 5 star hotels to go back to &^@#ing Yekaterinburg. Also Megna and Chaput are all stars at the AHL level, they are quite frankly better players than Jake right now. They don't have much of a future in the NHL but they were still better options than Jake last year. -
2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
Burke had Rielly at #1. I am not sure if anyone else did. I do admire Burke for going skill with his top picks, for all his faults with his lower picks (Tyler Biggs comes to mind), he didn't shy away from taking skilled players like Rielly and Kadri at the top of the draft. -
2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
Jake isn't better than Megna or Chaput though. Those guys ripped up the AHL and Jake hasn't shown he is capable of doing that. They are also pros who work hard and stay in shape. To put things into perspective Goldobin went down to the AHL and matched nearly half of Virtanen's goal output for the season in 3 games. -
So it seems we watched different tournaments. He wouldn't be playing beside Matthews/Scheifele/Laine if he was on those teams. He would be playing for the Marlies/Moose. Those teams have better depth than the Canucks and he didn't make the bigs here.
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Personally speaking I do not hate or even dislike Virtanen. Its not his fault that he was the 6th overall pick and its not his fault that he was selected by the Canucks. Not sure why we are talking about Strome and Marner when Virtanen wasn't good in that tournament either. He was a 19 year old returnee expected to be one of the leaders at the tournament and he was a disappointment. His indiscipline in the QF game played a hand in Canada getting dumped out of the tournament. He didn't deserve to be the sacrificial lamb for that performance but he had a poor tournament, no way to sugarcoat it. Also I don't know about you but 9 points in 36 games isn't exactly the definition of "tearing it up" either. I do agree that he did show some heart after that performance and that to me was encouraging. I don't really care to compare Virtanen to his peers anymore. Many of whom have long passed him and are much further ahead. Right now I am hoping for a serviceable player, not a star. How other teams are doing does not factor into my evaluation of Virtanen either. Just because you do not like someone's opinion does not make it a "ridiculous position".
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2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
Not sure why you thought my argument turned. The past few pages I have been arguing that you always go BPA and that argument does not change for defenseman either. If a defenseman is the best player at your spot you take the defenseman. I simply stated that you need to be careful with taking a defenseman with your top pick. Forwards are easier to project because they peak earlier than defenseman. When you draft a defenseman you are looking at a few years of development before that player makes an impact. The only exceptions are players like Doughty, Ekblad, Hedman and Jones. Predicting how that development is going to at age 18 is the biggest challenge. Take a look at the list of top defenseman and where they were drafted. Many of them come from lower rounds of the draft. This is because the development of defenseman is erratic. Not as erratic as goalies which are the hardest to project. With goalies you are on an average looking at around 6-7 years of development before they make an impact in the NHL and hence it is the hardest position to project. This is the reason why no one uses top picks on goalies any more. Its a bigger risk taking a goalie than a skater. You need to be able to project a player 6-7 years into the future and that is nearly impossible to do. Your stated example of the 2012 draft is interesting because the most glaring example of why you need to be careful with taking a defenseman that high is Griffin Reinhart. Also IMO the best defenseman selected from that will likely be Colton Parayko a 3rd round pick. No one even knew who Parayko was before last year. This isn't uncommon, the best defenseman usually ends up not being one of the top selections. Would anyone be surprised if any one or all of McAvoy, Sergachev or Chychrun end up being better than Juolevi? I would think not because like I said picking the best defenseman at 18 is harder to do than forwards. -
2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
I get that. I was just explaining to Rob that he misinterpreted Fors' point. -
2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
This is where you and Fors would disagree. He has advocated that the Canucks should not be drafting based on team specific needs. For example Benning has cited the need for a puck moving defenseman. Let's say in this instance the Canucks have Glass as the better player like Liljegren. But Liljegren fits the need for a puck moving defenseman. On the Canucks draft board Glass is "BPA". Fors is advocating that in this scenario the Canucks ignore the need for a puck moving defenseman to select the "BPA" which is Glass. -
2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
Actually that's exactly what he is advocating. Look at the Preds D and they still went with Dante Fabbro last year. The bolded portion of your post is something that no one disagrees with. We all know that the Canucks have their own draft board. @fors has acknowledged that and wants the Canucks to select the player at the top of their draft board and ignore team needs in that process. That's what he meant by "BPA" not some Hockey News prospect list. -
2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
I never did say we had "vast 'misses'". The discussion from before was hypothetical. I thought I made that clear in the previous post. My concern with selecting BPA is primarily due to the Virtanen pick. A bit of it is due to the Juolevi pick as well. Benning has a quote from before the draft about the Canucks having not selected a defenseman in the first round in quite a while, something that concerned me at the time. Regardless lets agree to disagree here. Its clear that you do not share my or Forsberg's concerns and I don't think we can refute each other having not been in the room at the time of the draft. I would rather is discuss other topics than continue a discussion based on conjecture. I haven't fretted over his drafting record, maybe that should be addressed to the people that are doing that. I like to wait a few years before seeing how a draft class turns out. So far Benning has had 3 drafts, need more time to evaluate the picks. -
2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
I don't blame him honestly. I think you need to be careful with your D picks at the top of the draft. Predicting the development of defenseman is notoriously difficult. You do not want to end up with a Gudbranson or a Luke Schenn with a top 5 pick. Even then you have guys like Zach Bogosian/Ryan Murray who are decent defenseman but not something that I would be happy with at the top of the draft. Forwards carry inherently less risk and are safer to project. Its no surprise that less and less defenseman are going in the top 5. Its the same reason why a goalie hasn't gone in the top half of the first round in forever. Goalies are voodoo. EDIT: Regarding Johansen vs Monohan I would take Johansen every day of the week and twice on Sundays. I find myself less and less enamored with Monahan than I was at the start of his career. To me he hasn't progressed as well as I once thought he would. I am no longer a fan. -
2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
Honestly speaking I don't care about off the board stretches. I have zero problems with going off the board if your scouts are confident that the player you are selecting is worth the selection. If you are going off the board though you had best hope that you aren't getting a Patrick White as that might be the end of your tenure as GM. Fans turn quickly on GMs who miss with an off the board pick, that's about the only difference. My concern isn't where Virtanen was ranked. My concern is what influenced the Canucks to make Jake their selection. There are quite a few scouts that did see problems to his game including fans from the Dub. Suffice to say that there are a lot of people that aren't surprised with how his career has gone thus far. Even if he completely reworks himself into a different player, it wouldn't necessarily prove them wrong as they always said that the style Jake played in junior wasn't going to bring him success at higher levels and I fully agree with their evaluation now. To me a "bad pick" is a player that ends up significantly worse than the players selected within that range. Hugh Jessiman has the dubious distinction of being one of the worst picks because every single pick in the first round that year ended up being a player. Maybe Jessiman was ranked at #23 or close to there at the time, maybe he was even higher. It is still a terrible pick though. In any case we can shall see how Jake's career will turn out. Lets agree to disagree on Jake though, this seems to be a futile discussion as neither of us is likely to convince the other and I would rather not bring the toxicity from the Virtanen thread to this one. -
2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
Agree about development. I don't place too much emphasis on roster spots. The cream usually rises to the top. A player like Boeser came in and showed us all that he belonged. Sure the Canucks had 0 depth and were playing guys like Megna and Chaput due to injuries but IMO you put Boeser on a better lineup and he still cracks that one as well. -
2017 NHL Draft - Chicago, Illinois June 23-24 2017
Toews replied to hyper00's topic in Prospects / Farm Team
Actually that's exactly what he is suggesting, taking the BPA. Poile has consistently taken D even when his roster is stacked at that position. Instead of taking Seth Jones at 4, the Preds could have selected Sean Monahan/Elias Lindholm instead and would be a worse team for it today. Ryan Johansen > Monahan/Lindholm