iceman64
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Posts posted by iceman64
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1 hour ago, 24K PureCool said:
Well I was just saying trades in general not specifically regarding our pick at 11.
Also we don't own the Isles pick anymore so they finishing dead last have no bearing on anyone but the Islanders.
Shite, good point, I forgot about the first gone next year for Hronek, Fack!
But if 11th goes as a trade sweetener to make it happen and as long as we do ok in it for someone/s we need now and the future, I'm ok with that.
Personally as far as JR and AL go, I was hoping they'd realize how bad this team is/always was, for simple lack of depth. It's one thing to have a great roster but failing to factor in depth due to injuries, sickness, whatever, is a never winning mind set, that's the real reason we've never had a cup here.
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Personally I wouldn't be unhappy to trade Boes, Garland, and 11th for a top 4 D and a high end D prospect/s who is already in development and ready to move up to the big show given a chance. Shed some cap and get more depth, something to that effect..
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13 minutes ago, 24K PureCool said:
I ain't gonna lie. I am more interested in potential draft day trades than any player we gonna select at 11.
Fair.. we need upgrades BUT they need to be on D but that's THE only scenario we trade that pick! imo anyway... For what it's worth.
However let's hope the isles reallyyyyy suck next year! Dead last in the league!
Wouldn't that be something?
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16 minutes ago, AlwaysACanuckFan said:
My mock draft on how it could go down
1) Chicago- Bedard
2) Anaheim- Fantilli
3) BJs - Carlsson
4) Sharks - Smith
5) Habs - Benson
6) Arizona- Michkov
7) Flyers- Reinbacher
8) Capitals- Leonard
9) Detroit- Moore
10) St Louis- Dvorsky
11) Canucks- Sandin Pellikka or Barlow
Well the general rule of thumb is picking BPA, BUT if it's for position then that changes things, a LOT or if someone goes off the board and sees something in a player other teams have missed and is what their looking for in a player, obviously skill is a big factor but attitude and work ethic are there too as a factor that can help dictate a pick so who knows until it actually happens but kinda fun to see how scenarios play out.
This season and next is a really important time for us and will set the tone for years to come, I just want to see depth and the farm NOT sold off for once, that shite doesn't work as we Canucks fans have seen quite enough of that since day 1.. it's time for the b.s. to end and have a "built" elite team with depth!
Wouldn't that be a switch??!!
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So now.. at 11th, who do we pick? that's a tough call, develop a forward at BPA and then trade him for D? Or look elsewhere for D prospects and keep the forward. Seems to me, we'll be lucky to end up with a D pick since good projected RHD might be scooped before we get a shot.
At any rate we need to load up on D, not just for the next few years onward window but over the long haul because if there's a position we always need depth at, we all know that's D, it's not rocket science.
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54 minutes ago, VforVasili said:
Not criticizing you in particular but I sometimes wonder if people on these boards have just never interacted with a Swedish person before. Alvin is practically bubbly compared to your average Swede. I see this a lot on here as people criticize him for stumbling on his words as well. English isn't his first language and he does just fine. I think an even tempered decision maker is frankly something we have desperately needed for some time now.Oh you mistaked that it was a criticism, I thought it was funny actually, like what the F else are you going to say in his position?
Nothing to do with criticism at all btw, just making that clear.
The only thing I ever got on him a bit for was Schenn but not that bad because it could have been JR who made that idiot call to dump one of the best 3rd pairing guys with toughness we need more of on this team not less especially the way our D is usually heavily injured, it's happened a TON in the past with Elder, Salo, and Tanev.
And that's not counting how bad we got it last season that basically cost us a playoff spot with losing Demko mixed in but losing so many D before we even got 5-10 games in, I thought THAT alone would make management see how shallow we are at that position and not keeping a player who would be needed in spades when we make the playoffs.
The playoffs is all out war and if Schenn isn't a warrior then I don't know who is.
However! Other than that, seems like AL gives a shite about the team and not just doing his job, I see he takes his job with pride involved so no I have no reason to be hating on him.
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1 hour ago, Toni Zamboni said:
are there some good players avail at 11th?
who should we pick?That's a loaded question, after the 5th draft spot it's all opinions from there on down to at least 12-13th since the talent seems to be that close.
If it's us, it's tough, we need RHD and there's really only 2 that seem to stand out from the crowd but they may or may not be available but obviously the best player available because he can always be traded if it's a forward in a D swap I guess.
So it being so close, Reinbacher or Pellikka are among the scarce D in the top 20 picks.
Hard to know if picking either of them is picking up or down at 11th spot or if they'll even be there since we're not the only team after RHD.
As usual the top 2 picks are for sure, Bedard and Fantilli but it always seems to go sideways after that in most drafts, so many different scouting reports and opinions, it's just too hard to know for sure the right draft order after the top 1-3 picks
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33 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:
Can someone please change the thread title to Bedard to Chicago or something?
Well it's to Chicago, and as much as I'd have liked Bed here, much like edm and McDavid, if McD gets injured, they're screwed, I really don't mind us not having that much cap in one player and Drais on top of that for Edm makes it double trouble, if Drais goes down, same deal, the rest of the roster is a lot lower tiered with 2 players with that much $ combined, too much risk.
I'd rather have at least 3 players with that instead or 4 if it can be swung.
Either 3-4 still drops the odds down of losing games and possibly a playoff spot because of it.
Nah....
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A guy posted this on Twitter with the caption
"Very excited at 11th". by AL, so believable!!! Such a look of excitement! Wooooo!
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6 hours ago, Goal:thecup said:
Couple bald guys holding him down..
I wonder if Brock would look good with a single racing stripe like that?
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3 hours ago, CanucksJay said:
Lol who snitched?
Kick him off the team
I doubt anyone except the media who probably hyped up Toc's suggestions to show up early to get in shape better etc, and someone passed it along. You know how that goes, ball gets rolling...
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After the draft tonight, sucks BUT I'm surprised we didn't drop! Things are looking UP!!! Shrugs.. maybe.. maybe not..
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Bettman is prolly scared this might help us win a few more games or something, can you imagine if Vancouver won a cup? He'd lose this $hit!
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14 minutes ago, Goal:thecup said:
Then it would be $50,000.
Cuz of course they're gonna say they wanted it.
Wonder if they handed out some 'homework'?
Hey Kuz, get a haircut!
Can you imagine the uproar if they asked Flow to do that? Whoa! Riots in the streets! (again)
This time not for losing.... Just Brock losing his Do..
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4 minutes ago, Goal:thecup said:
Probably already happened; like prison 'gym class'; mandatory for some.
Sorry, I'm following the War in Ukraine too much.
Aside - (11pm our time is 9am May 9th, 2023 at the Victoria Day Parade in Moscow, which Poot will not attend in person, cuz, "too busy"; there will be less materiel on display for some reason.. )
But yeah, only the Canucks could get punished for something they haven't done yet, right?
Sorta the Reverse LaGongo - which somehow was ok at the time, "but just you wait!"
You mean LaGongshow right?
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27 minutes ago, Devron said:
Surprised bettman didn’t take our pick away
Oh I'm sure if he could lawfully do that, he would have. Once a a$$hole, always a a$$hole.. it's a toss up for me who to hate more Bettman or Louie Eriksson..
But actually 50k? Wooooo that's gonna break FA for sure!!
Bettman probably will take his buddies out dinner on weekends for awhile...
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Just now, VancouverHabitant said:
No that's Louie Eriksson after hearing he got traded... "Get out while you still can"
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1 hour ago, Alflives said:
Brock stays. He’s a line driver. The Smurf is gone .
Sort of, I'm concerned with his wrist and back with no tough side to really speak of which we need more of a balance of both in a player.
Plus we have a log jam of newbies needing shots at it and even if they aren't quite there then at least we know and can adjust plans accordingly but we have enough scoring punch to add more physical punch so losing a sniper soft-ish wouldn't hurt us much if at all and both players combined cap isn't exactly chump change right? And Myers is off the books next year so upgrades and raises along the way is a for sure consideration of dumping some cap in favour of younger group and not so many FA's because you can only win so many of those, some work, some don't, we've seen our share.
And not to mention the injury luck this team has had over the years and the depth we lacked all this time, gets exposed and gets nowhere but we never seem to get that going that route instead of running a successful farm from draft on up, that a laughable wishful way of thinking.
Idk anymore, why the F do people think anything else is going to work ffs??!
This is the Canucks history in a bottle.. yeah fun to watch said roster with next to zero depth play great and win lots and make the playoffs only to be bounced out when injuries hit and no one to step in like the deep elite teams have.
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6 hours ago, ToTellTheTruth said:
Destined for more failure.
Here is a future concern and failure that leads to that now.
Who is the 2nd line center in 3 years?
Should the target not be a 2nd line center now? Especially if the team is "building" and developing?
The 3rd line center is just an energy guy with Tocchet, a big fast forechecker, all that is needed for that is to be able to skate fast and hit hard. Work long the boards well. If I got anything out of all those end of season meaningless games is was there are a couple of prospective 3rd line centers already here.
But the talk is all about getting a third line center because they don't want fans to see what is plain as a freight train bearing down on the team, Miller will not be good enough in 3 years to be the 2nd line center unless Pettersson leaves.
Speaking of Pettersson, if he does not sign a new long term deal before July 1 then the team almost has to trade Miller otherwise he will become the new Eriksson or OEL in 3 years when he hits 33 yrs old. Look around the league is O'Reilly the same as he was 3 years ago? Taveras? Toews, Kane or Taresenko? What makes anyone think Miller will be that much different? And on a team that will be leaning on him even more due to not having the supporting depth.
If he gets to July 1 then Miller dictates the direction of the team, not management or at least influences what the team can do way out of proportion to his contribution and dollar value.
When it was Eriksson it was how his cap hit was damaging improvement, now it is OEL, both players could play but not up to their dollar value and their contracts had the team handcuffed causing FAs to walk for free, draft picks to be traded and no time for development. Since 2014 draft the team got lucky twice, Brackett's insistence to take Pettersson and Detroit's taking Zedina instead.
They let the cap manage the team instead of the team managing the cap.
That has to change. IMO thy can do this if they use the cap spent already through retention. While there is a cap hit still on the books it can be managed through the used of entry level contracts or second contracts and the cap going up.
Lots of posting about buying out OEL. Okay, it is not his play so much, which is declining like most 30+ year olds (see Miller) it is the cap hit. If he were bought out the cap hit in 2 of the next 3 years is larger than a 50% retention with nothing coming back and lasting 8 years. Where as a 50% retention will result in a 3.3 mil cap hit for 4 years it also allows for something to come back. Make no mistake OEL at 3.6 mil is very valuable as a 3,4 or 5 guy or even if matched with a far better defenceman than Canucks have even more.
Buyout OEL equals nothing coming back and costing the team for 8 years.
Retention equals a cap hit for 4 years AND a prospect/pick coming back.
Boeser is the same thing only with a larger return
Buyout equals 4 years of over 2 mil cap hits with nothing coming back
Retention equals 2 years of a 3.3 mil cap hit but increases his trade value immensely at 3.3 mil, a much higher draft pick AND a AAA prospect
Garland not so much for a buyout
Buyout equals 6 years of cap hits
Retention equals 4 years but with a return of a prospect or pick.
If retention is used in all three at 50% which is negotiable, then the cap relief for the Canucks is close to 9.5 million, and that goes up if retention is less. Plus the addition of whatever assets come back this way. Assets have trade value too so there could be immediate improvement if Allvin wants to cap out the team and make the situation even worse than now because he will not have the retention spots for two years.
IF a Miller trade is on the table and the team did retain say 12% of his salary, around 1 million he could get at least a first round pick in return plus a younger center or young defenceman with top 2 potential from some teams.
IMO there are about 9 teams that would be interested in acquiring Miller now as they are all set up to win now or retool due to having older vets on the team or just retiring, they are NYR, Washington, Pittsburgh, Winnipeg, Boston, St Louis, Columbus, Nashville and the Islanders. All will have enough cap space, some with only some minor work. These could be with taking on the full contract but retention could add to the return.
There are players/picks/prospects on every team that would help the Canucks in the next 2 seasons go from idling along waiting for entropy to catch up to other teams to be a team on the climb through talent, depth and skill.
Retooling in this fashion, through the use of retention to get more picks, young players and prospects shows Pettersson that the team will be much better as he ages himself.
I remind fans that while Pettersson is only 24 now he is 26 in 18 months and Horvat was traded at 27 and he has stated he isn't sad in his new home.
And that Pettersson and his agent are not fanatically loyal to this team as his statements of wanting to play in the playoffs with a chance to win he made clear. This will be demonstrated by how fast and how long his next contract will be. If he does a Dubois type deal then this team is in for a world of hurt because they will not be able to change the direction they have set. They will be capped out with no first line prospects in the system, none of the calibre of Pettersson and Miller will be over the hump of his prime
In 2013 and today who is being sold to the fans
Sedins = Pettersson and Hughes
Kesler = Miller
Luongo/Markstrom/Miller = Demko
The big difference is President Trophies and a cup final appearance.
The Sedins get trotted out for celebrations a couple of times a year, the old 94 team gets a night, the 2010 team a night lots of nostalgia nights because there is nothing now.
For those fans that cling to the results of the end of the season.
For two years in a row the team won lots of meaningless games at the end of the season. So did many bottom teams over the last 4 years.
The team has the same players only older and had even fewer points last year.
They still lack depth and are capped out.
They are still trading away 1rst and 2nd round picks for middle of the road players, Hronek might be a beta version of Tanev, maybe
Draft Lottery on Monday maybe it the team's turn to move up Bedard would be nice, Fantilli great. Now watch Allvin trades the first today before the lottery and then says "It was Monday in Sweden where I live"
Garland and Boeser will be gone, they just don't fit Toc's mold anyway but rest assured even if we have to retain some cap in either case it won't be a deal breaker.
Everything sort of hinges on one thing, Bettman, usually full of $hit but in March he quoted that a cap increase would be considered for this season even though escrow hasn't been paid off yet since so many teams are in cap crunch.
Anything would be helpful at this point but it could be b.s. too.
However we need to trade for either picks or prospects coming back but we can't be doing the opposite as per usual, that's why we're in the state we're in to begin with, without depth, that's the failure part we've sucked at because management/ownership continued to listen and react to a lot stupid, (*shortsighted*), sell the farm fans/media for a one and done.
Which brings us back to where we are today after a franchise history of trying that scenario that never worked instead of building a elite team with depth...
THAT is the real reason for failure here in Vancouver
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23 hours ago, Alflives said:
I think a lot of us are still suffering with PTBD. But we need to realize, to get well, that this regime is more like Gillis than Benning. Hronek just turned 25 when we got him and he completes our core.
If we buyout OEL and dumperoo Myers we will be 105 points next year. We have a great younger core and are retooling the supporting cast to make it great too.You know Alf, I wouldn't give up on OEL that quickly, he was a force at one point and if he can return to that form we could be ok, Myers doesn't have to be traded until we have a suitable replacement but not sacrificing is the key for both if something can be salvaged, like keeping Myers another season then add a FA or top prospect Ala a Boes or Garland trade.
But we need to have a hard-nosed, big, smart D with some upside skill but a stay at home guy to compliment a smaller PMD like Hughes, if we can pull the same toughness and skill on each line to compliment that and have depth at it too. That would help us a TON
Picture a faster Guddy who can play a notch up.. exactly what we need but so do a lot of teams, getting and developing younger ones like that is a ton easier.
It seemed to me that what Benning was after when signing Guddy and Tryamkin but IF it had worked out and matched with PMD's, there's the answer as a lot of elite teams have pulled off in the past.
Can it be done here?! Idk but without said tougher bigger D, anyone can just park themselves in the crease
and screen, no one can stop what they can't see and we've been burned by that a LOT!
It's time for US to have guys who can physically remove a forward from the crease on every pairing.
Will it happen? Can JR n AL pull it off and depth it too? Probably not and not getting my hopes up but one can dream Mr Alien...
Edit: OEL.. well maybe it's as simple as more time with Gonchar, idk but a OEL buyout would be painful in the long run but you know that I'm sure
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1 hour ago, EP Phone Home said:
preaching the truth and facts Iceman.We should’ve started building a team (depth and cornerstone players not just Petey, Demko and Hughes) when the Sedins retired in 2018 and Trevor Linden wanted to build a deep and young team. That was one year after Petterson getting drafted, Hughes was just drafted and Demko was still in Utica and not with the big club other than his first call up/start against Columbus in 2018.
This was the time to accumulate draft picks and take bad money (contracts) for short term pain, for picks and prospects to increase the timeline of this rebuild that Linden proposed to FA and Benning. We know the story after that, Linden leaving the franchise because FA wanted a quick turn around (when doesn’t he want that) and Benning said he can do it.
So instead we went free agency shopping and used the 14+ million dollars that came off the books with the Sedin’s retiring. Spent money on Gagne, Beagle, Rooster, MDZ, Nilsson instead of weaponizing cap space like we have seen with so many other teams around the league do when they need to rebuild the cupboards and depth of their organizations. And the irony of that summer spreading spree bit the team in the ass in the off season of 2020 when we didn’t have the cap space to resign our right side defenders in Stetcher/Tanev as well as top 6 winger Toffoli. It’s very short sighted mistakes that we might run into repeating as soon as end of the 2023/2024 season when we have to somehow find the cap space to resign Petey and Hronek
when they need new deals. Of course we will make the room for Petey but at what cost?
It doesn’t do us any favours always being so close up against the cap. Teams aren’t stupid and can see when a team is cap crunched (which we always seem to be) and can get really solid players for peanuts due to their cap issues. Seattle traded just a 5th and 4th to Columbus for Bjorkstrand.
It’s a very difficult task to achieve to rebuild a blue line when you have 13 million combined in undesirable D men in Myers (free agent signing in 2019 6X5) and OEL (the trade that Benning did to try and save his job and failed) how does one improve when we are stuck with dead weight contracts. While Myers might be able to be moved being in the last year of his deal, we are stuck with OEL.
One other thing that has been a glaring issue with this team is the reluctancy to draft more blue liners especially on the right side. You mentioned how we happen to never have enough depth to get in the playoffs or to go far in the playoffs. This is very true, especially on the right side defence. I don’t have any issues with what we have and what’s coming on the left side. We have Hughes, Rathbone,Hirose, Wolalin, Breez and EP2.0 coming on the LS. It’s the right side we have little to no depth and no elite RSD on the way. Who was the last RSD that we drafted and developed?
Johnathan Myrenberg (traded last year for Studnicka who may or may not be in our future plans) Jet Woo that’s who and he’s having a great year in Abby. But why haven’t we been drafting more RSD when it’s been our area of weakness on the big club and in the system for a very long time. Is it because Defensemen take a lot longer then Centers or Wingers do? That management doesn’t have the runway of 4-5 years to develop these prospects?
I think JR and most of the Canucks Execs have until the end of next season before their contracts run out so they aren’t focused on the future they are focused on getting instant results. That was intentional and how FA wanted. Another quick turn around that JR said he would help take on. So the future of building out depth has taken a back seat for a ready now playoff hunt.
This short term way of thinking limits this teams potential ceiling of being a cup contender and instead we the fans have to settle for just a playoff team (not even that the last 3 years). Which you have pointed out @iceman64 that if the goal is just to be a playoff team it’s a numbing goal and standard to “just get in and anything can happen” benchmark.
Now because we didn’t go ahead with Trevor’s plan of rebuilding in 2018 we are stuck with a unfinished product that yes has some REALLY great pieces but the work isn’t done and we are stuck in a place where our core doesn’t want to be bad and get the elite talent we need to expand to contender (not pretender) status. We are in a way f**ked with the layout of contracts and our three cornerstones in their prime with very little margin for error to add to and improve upon.
The Hronek trade was not the right time to make but since JR and Co are on the clock, rather then draft a Hronrek with the 1st or 2nd (he was after all a 2nd round pick) rounder we had we used those cost controlled and potentially better assets go so we can gamble on next year. If we make the playoffs and Hronek has a good year, we have to open the bank for him and Petey.
I absolutely hear you loud and clear Iceman and I’ve opted out of my season tickets because I can no longer give my money towards a goal( playoff spot not a cup) that not every fan agrees with. It’s the only deterrent I have to say I’m done with the refool on the fly method that we continue to try and sell to the fan base
I’m always going to want to see this club win the big prize but you, myself and other fans have seen the trend that we’ve been stuck on since we lost the final in 2011 and we want to cut corners to get there. So I’m sceptical this retool short term plan is going to work this time because it sure hasn’t worked out the last 9-10 years. The fear I have in the next decade is that we will be the lone team in the sad club with Buffalo looking like they are getting their act together finally and Toronto might get over the hump now that they got through the first round. Hope I’m dead wrong about that but I can see it.
Anyways Iceman I might have vented more then I should’ve but there’s good reason to be critical about this team spinning it’s tires for this long. If posters on here have issue with what I am saying here, maybe the team should have higher standards and put a stop to the short sighted mediocrity that we’ve all endured. BE BETTER DO BETTER! We all want to see a cup championship in our lifetime it’s overdue and we want a deep team that can deliver that goal. There’s nothing wrong with having those expectations.
Lmao I know hey? The venting part I mean, oh believe me I get that! If I started in on my thoughts about more than that and who kept the one and done show alive and well all these years? The Vancouver media and online media hacks (self proclaimed or otherwise) forgets the past and continues the b.s. of trading picks, prospects, for roster players with big names that may or may not work out here. Sometimes it worked but mostly we ended up on the losing side. Well not during the season but when depth was relies upon and you don't have any... Ruh roh... Man the lifeboats because this ship is sinking! Over and over again! Like wtf??? 40+ years of this and we keep repeating.. omfg! Lmao!
*Pats self on the back* for keeping my blood pressure down!
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On 3/20/2023 at 1:50 PM, 48MPHSlapShot said:
Silver lining to not having Demko for most of the year is that it shone a spotlight on just how terrible our defense actually is. There's no hiding from it now and management is finally being forced to take action.
Sounds like most of our rosters over the years, good enough to be really good but not good enough to be great, yet people were perfectly content to have a good "seasonal" team that got ousted 1st round in the post.
However it started in the media and idiots who refuse to critically think for themselves followed happily along and trumpeted loud and long for more of the same.
Well when we start to get into the post season again, I'm sure they'll be more than happy to keep it up but miserable we won't win a cup and cry even louder...
Question is, will we ever actually build a team? Maybe, IF management ignores the fans and does it for ONCE in our lame history of repeat "the same ole"
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Seriously? It was hardly just missing Demko, at the beginning of the year our D had massive amounts of injuries and our lack of team D showed from the forwards. Plus losing Mik made it even worse.
However this is pretty much like every year, our lack of depth gets exposed like it always does when management caves to public opinion to get a better roster instead of building one with depth.
Oh wait, a one and done Stanley cup isn't working..
Funny how that is, as usual...
I fully expect it to happen again though, par for course around here, the golf course that is.
Fans who think that will EVER work should just shut the F up or go cheer for the Coilers or Flamer-outs..
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On 3/17/2023 at 3:25 AM, Bob.Loblaw said:
I think some people are forgetting that Spencer Martin was outplaying Thatcher Demko at the start of the season. A start which had us go winless in our first seven games. It was a nightmare to watch us lose day in, day out - sometimes in dramatic fashion, too. When Demko went down, it was sensible to keep Martin in net. He was a feel-good story after playing lights out last year and outshining Halak. I think it was fair to believe he could keep that up for a while, and unfortunate that he couldn't. Even now I don't think those horrible stats from this season reflect his level of play.
The tank job started to begin when other players started to go down. And the REAL tank job was when management held onto Boudreau for no apparent reason.
Not true...
[Discussion] Draft and Off Season Talk
in Canucks Talk
Posted
I wouldn't go that far, in the final push, Boes and Garfield upped their value THANKFULLY!
At the TDL they weren't worth very much but both turned it on so there's that, that could be a factor as well.
This could turn out well for us yet, if we trade those 2 and the 11th, we could get D coming back so it might turn out to be a glitch, nothing more but management seems fully aware because of our horrible start with D dropping like flies, where as prior they got Lekk, where it needed to be a trade up or down for a D, although if he comes in lights out or just really good we could trade him for D, it's not like we don't have options is my point, no, not tons but enough to make some changes and build on them with depth.