DSVII

I would look at his Shooting% in Boston for another reason in his regression. It was not sustainable.

But I've been told to not get stuck into the past you want me to go further back?

I know you're typing up your magnum opus response, but i'll chime in quickly here and you can add it to your chapters https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/junior-hockey/vancouver-giants-hire-former-vancouver-canucks-trainer-mike-burnstein You can thank your buddy boy Benning for that when he fired Mike Burnstein and replaced him with Celebrini. Again, a GM's job isn't all about drafting, but ensuring all other aspects of the organization are running smoothly. His decision to fire Burnstein in 2015 and revamp the athletic training and performance program cost us years of prime Tanev. The below is cap dollars lost to injury per season, blue bar being league average ranges.

Again, Dazzle, if I gave you these first round picks and a hockey news magazine with draft rankings over eight years: 6th, 23rd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 10th and I give Gillis/Benning/Blank slate GM these picks over five years: 10th, 22nd, 29th, 26th, 9th You will more likely than not walk away with more impact players than blank slate GM. I don't know what you are expecting? The fact that Gillis got Horvat from this is actually pretty reasonable when you consider NHL hit rates lower in the draft. Picks in the top 5 are almost always 90% guaranteed to be an NHL player and make an impact. That combined with the fact that Gillis had no control of his farm team until the very end in 2013, you factor that into the evaluation. A good farm system is essential for ensuring your late rounders developer properly and that was a significant advantage Benning had over Gillis (with only Demko to show for it for 8 years) Draft capital. I'm sure if we swapped Benning and Gillis's draft picks, Gillis will out perform Benning. The chasm in draft capital between the two was so huge it's almost not an apples to apples comparision. I also find it ironic that you're saying the fanbase is stuck in the past, but you are reaching even further into the past on this? Gillis spent draft capital for the cup runs, that was a return on that investment that he could not get on the draft table (which was negligible, but the Chicago Wolves hampering development of his picks played a part there, he addressed it with Utica.) Benning spent his draft capital and we still have a 27th ranked prospect pool (i understand Petey/Hughes graduated right away, but they are an exception, not the rule thus far, and to have this after 8 years of bottom 10 finishes is simply inexcusable) The real thing about this fanbase is really the amount of self deprecation and loathing that just crops up sometimes when people make this generalized commentary, the 2011 riots may have played a part, but we aren't any worse or better than any other fanbase out there. There's literally nothing that different about us than other fanbases. This is also a knowledgeable fanbase, and knows what a rebuild, and retool is, and what end of the pig makes the mess for the most part I'd give us as a collective more credit. Don't look down on the group. I also point out the fact again, that you are accusing the group of not being able to get past the last 8 years by pulling examples from the last 10 years. but it's great, because we have these discussions, i much rather enjoy them. Lastly, I'm very happy to talk about Benning without making reference to the Stanley Cup and Prez Trophy teams of the Gillis era, but it's the pro-benning side that keeps bringing them up and thus it needs to be addressed. If i compare Benning to a league average team during his tenure I suspect it won't look too good on his part either.

The longer this discussion goes, and the more defending 'arguments' I'm reading. The more I think I may have been too generous with my 3/10 and 4/10 (ownership meddling handicap) rating.

Your posts are actually a better argument against your position than anything I can ever hope to type. So please do continue

I re-summarize my posts. In fact, from all the posts you couldn't even reply to because frankly, you have no good counter argument. Your "woe is me, Benning had it so tough" arguments make no sense, because every GM had to deal with 1.) Flat Cap 2.) Expansion Draft , and JB dealing with these same circumstances, is probably in the bottom 10th percentile of the league for Wins, cap space management and draft capital accumulation. The Covid outbreak happened when the team had <10% chance of making playoffs. And had to play at a 107 point pace from February onwards to even make playoffs. The outbreak was March 30th. Benning tried to make playoffs every year, he sold the farm and mortgage picks to do this since 2015. We've entered each draft with less draft capital than a 15th place team. And are capped like a top 3 team. That is Benning's fault. The cap recapture was an arbitrary retro the league did, so I don't blame GMMG for that. Now as for Benning, could he have possibly made a move to avoid it? It was on the table and if he couldn't execute to stop such a big obstacle on his 2,3,4,5 year plan, then that's on him Now back to question one. Which is a twist on this thread. What good did Benning do for this franchise over 8 years if you remove Petey/Hughes/Demko from the equation? The notion that a core is instantly guaranteed a cup without any tweaks or active management is comically ignorant. (Just ask Edmonton and Toronto how elite cores are working for them). This 'core' missed playoffs two of the three years before GMMG came in. He also did with Dubas couldn't, and negotiate the twins to team friendly deals as UFA. Putting together a stanley cup team actually does take rocket science, that's why teams have capologists and front offices. That's why Benning is being dragged through the mud throwing picks and prospects away for Clendenning, Sbisa, Sutter, Dickinson, OEL, etc... Going by your logic, why didn't Benning win with Petey and Hughes and Demko in their ELCs? This core is obviously good enough to contend with. Because anything after drafting your core is basically auto pilot right? Again, back to my question number 2. Gillis only had a few months after trading Cory Schneider to restock the cupboards when it was evidently against the Owner's wishes. He put his neck on the line to try and get a rebuild going and was canned for it before he had a chance to do anything, he even had Dylan Larkin on his draft board with the #6 pick, which combined with Bo would have been a good start down the middle. What more would you have him do since he was fired? What was your expectation? You're being completely ignorant of how hockey works and twisting everything to your narrative. I'm sorry to say, but Benning's rep is as one of the worst GMs in our franchise and league. And no matter how much you capitalize your words in a FACEBookMEme Argument, it's not changing that. Let's not forget the hilarity of this moving goalpost. 2009-2011 - this is an auto-win cup core! 2012-2014 - dead in the water, worthless, untradeable. On the contrary, this market was screaming for patience. Accumulating draft picks when we weren't good and not rush any of the kids. What Benning did in making his win now trades is not patience. Throwing Virtanen, McCann, Hoglander, Podz straight into the NHL is not patience. Every aspect of this org, from the scouting staff (Brackett), the training staff (Burnstein), the front office (Gilman) has been rotted to the core by Benning. And you cheer this on. It will take 5-10 years to get rid of the rot that Benning has left on this franchise. And you know what. I am very patient about it. I'm not going anywhere. There was a choice. Sign cheap UFAs and rebuild. That is an excuse. Benning was able to deploy 30-35% of the cap to his original contracts. he had the flexibility. He was just plain bad. He ended up paying premiums from a position of strength (Sutter, OEL, to a lesser extent JT) because the concept of cap space as an asset was alien to him. While teams now are squeezing us to get out of his mistakes (Dickinson,Garland,myers) Anyways, this has been a fun morning, cheerio!

You've lost the plot my friend. Take care. Do try and answer those questions when you have a chance. I'm genuinely curious.

Take notes everyone. Winning the president's trophy (2012) and the division (2013) means you're dead in the water. Can't compare to those meaningful games in March the last 8 years....give your head a shake man.

The only thing comical about this whole thing is the amount of fluff you're trying to buffer JB with. The bolded would be more convincing if 31 other GMs also didn't go through the same thing, with a fair share of them thriving in that environment. This is an excuse in the purest form and does not mitigate anything on Benning's part. Two things about the outbreak: 1.) It happened March 30th, by then the season was more than half over and lost. The Canucks had a sub 10% chance of making playoffs one month before the outbreak and needed to be playing at a 107 pace from February onwards to make playoffs. Benning's prized acquisition in Toffoli almost single handedly sinking our season. It sucked, but it was not the reason why we missed playoffs. The 2020 offseason was. Benning lost the 2021 year before it even began because he 'ran out of time'. 2.) If anything, the Covid outbreak highlighted Benning's shortcomings as a leader even more. Where was his leadership when that happened? It took JT Miller stepping up a week after the outbreak and telling the media that the team was uncomfortable playing and getting the league to reschedule and give the team the rest they needed. He inherited a 100+ point team that made playoffs the following year. With moveable assets like Kesler, Hamhuis and Garrison and 30%-35% of the cap to play with (by the start of the 2015-16 season, roughly $26M of the $73M in annual team cap hit were new contracts signed by Benning) . That's more than enough cap flexibility for any rebuild/retool. Plus A future captain in Bo #1 goalie in Markstrom, a top pairing in Edler/Tanev. Even when he chose to sit on the assets like Burrows and Hansen till they depreciated to nothing, he still got assets for them, as opposed to now where Canucks have to pay to get Benning's contracts off the books. Give me the 2015 team and the upcoming drafts to rebuild/retool with over what JR/PA took over any day. Benning made this team miss out on a generation of talent. I'll pre-empt you as well. Yes, Gillis failed to provide Benning with a prospect pool in the few months he had left in his time here when decided to rebuild against Aquilini's wishes. The above still left Benning a pretty impressive template to start with and put his mark on the team. 1.) Up til 2015, go for it, then rebuild. 2.) Be mindful of a buyer and seller's market. Don't trade away picks and sign cheap veterans to mentor the picks you do get. Buy low, sell high. 3.) Develop the prospects you draft rather than rush them 4.) Manage the cap properly and see cap space as a weapon to use when rebuilding. 5.) When rebuilding, enter each draft with more draft capital than a playoff team Believe it or not, I started out as pro-Benning, defended him up until 2016. Walking away from that year with less assets than a playoff team while you're third last was inexcusable. It felt like every other team was either gunning for the cup or rebuilding with intent. Canucks under Benning were just....there. I'm very curious with you as well, a reverse of this thread's premise. 1.) Can you say what long term good Benning has done for the club without mentioning three draft picks? Petey/Hughes/Demko? Because that's really it after 8 years of futility. 2.) What did you expect Gillis to leave Benning with on the farm considering he's only a year removed from trying to go for it as a President's trophy winner and trading picks away for one last shot in 2013? He only had time to do one rebuild move trading Schneider away for Bo, and trying to rebuild against the owner's wishes which literally got him fired? What more could he have done in your eyes?

Keep him. In 2-3 years teams will pay a lot to have him.

Not even the argument smh.

Going by JB's estimate. Two years ago

So by this logic, because Benning created a market demand for OEL, that was not a bad contract? There are other bad GMs out there ya know. I'll also bite on that strawman. The mistake with Gudbranson was not necessarily the contract, but the assets given up to acquire the player. Myers is a serviceable #4, being paid like a top 2. And therefore a bad contract. Unless we want to define what bad means to you? I mean judging by your own words, the bar seems as low as not being a max term/cap contract. Just because Benning didn't pay a $3-4 mil guy an 8x8 doesn't mean paying him a 6x5 isn't a mistake/bad deal. it still is an overpayment.

If we waived Myers or Poolman last December. How confident would you be that a team would scoop him up? Because hey, there was only one bad contract right?

Oh yes. Let's remove possibly the single worst transaction in franchise history from the record, and then he's probably mediocre! Signing a max deal is not an indicator of a bad GM, it's knowing the context where you should and shouldn't do it. Petey is going to get a max deal and that's not likely to turn out to a bad thing for instance. The thing about Benning isn't that there is one transaction you can pin it on, but a cascade of consistently bad decisions that add up to a pile of crap. The offseason of 2020 didn't happen just because of Loui, but also because of Myers, Pearson, Sutter, Beagle, Roussel etc....it takes a holistic view to properly gauge the damage he's done to the franchise. 3/10 or 4/10 if i want to pin the blame on Aqua. And each point is essentially for (Petey/Hughes/Demko)

As much as I love to rag on Benning....reviving a 2-3 year old thread

I was originally of the opinion that we have to trade one of Boeser, Garland or both. But with the way the cap increase is structured, a saavy team will pounce on us to acquire Boeser and Garland for pennies on the dollar because we are on the cap crunch, and in 2025/2026 the cap is projected to go up by 5-6 mil. This would instantly make both those players bargains because they'll appreciate in value due to the lower % of cap they represent in 2 years time. I know it goes against everything this team has ever done, which has been taking the short cuts and competing now at the expense of the future, but the team has to seriously consider standing pat and letting the cards fall where they fall and then wait for the cap bump in 2025 to go for it after extending Petey. By then, every team will have more cap space so the squeeze will not depress their trade values if we do decide to trade one of Boeser or Garland. Garland's $4.95 M in a 90M salary cap world is a bargain, as is Boeser's 6M and they are top 6 players, we wil be able to get more for them in that offseason than this year. If we have to part with them, trade them a year from now rather than the $83M world this summer.

Let's assume Detroit gets ASP to replace Hronek. And presuming one of the C's we want does not drop to us. Would we be opposed to drafting Tom Wallinder? In fact, let's say we have the choice between ASP and Wallinder. Who is the preference?

Just gonna screencap this for posterity before a contrarian votes just for the sake of it. Rare to have 100% consensus here

Difference is Panthers were a consistent playoff team and a president's trophy winner the year before. Our teams are light years apart. I think if this team can't make playoffs in the next two to three years, rebuild. We definitely need to go for it now, but in a measured way, and luckily Allvin is better at pro scouting than Benning. But as a fan that wants this team to succeed in a sustainable fashion, there has to be a hard cut off, a cold rational cut off, where if this core shows that it does not have what it takes, the team has to break it up and take the step back and rebuild. We can't retool forever because it is a vicious cycle that feeds into itself. Forget the Benning years, they are a sunk cost now, do what's right for the franchise in this moment. For now, it's going for it, but there will come a time when we shouldn't be sentimental or go for a short term gratification fix.

At the very least can he install cup holders in the seats? Went to a BC lions game yesterday and I marveled at the fact that I had a place to put my drink. I think Hronek is also propped up by his deployment, similar to how we did with Hodgson. Seider was having a sophomore slump and Detroit literally had no one else to go to. I'm not saying he's a bad RHD, he's a legit top 4 RHD. But I'd like to see the games first before annointing him that.

At this point, this team is a bottom 15 team paid like a top 3 team. Hypotheticals and paper is fine. But we need to see it happen and we just haven't. Even the bubble run was due to a once in a lifetime pandemic pause that gave the team a play in. We still haven't seen this group succeed consistently over an 82 game stretch with an above 15th result.

The division has quietly improved. Four teams made playoffs. Three went to the 2nd round and 1 is in the conference finals. Calgary had a down year with Sutter but not a pushover. The only team that is gonna be easy match next year is probably SJ. Or Anaheim but they're on the up.