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Everything posted by ForsbergTheGreat
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At this moment jake looks expendable. With miller and ferland on the roster. Pod in the system and gadj. MacEwen to a lesser extent. Hoping jake can have everything click as will we be a better team because of it. But just like kassian at some point you just have to move on. I personally think this team is missing some pure skill in its top 9. Outside of petey it’s pretty bleak, Sven is a bandaid, Boeser is more of a shooter, it’s likely why they are trying so hard to make it work with goldobin. . Sure but it’s not out of the question to seeing him moved in the next 24 months. Last year there was the rumor of him being package for zadorov and it’s not something I was against.
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[GDT/PGT] Nucks @ Flames / Flames @ Nucks
ForsbergTheGreat replied to xereau's topic in Canucks Talk
I’m going to the game in the saddledome while beagle as the #1. -
In what world is a 60+ point player a drain? In what world is a 25 point, third line winger with major consistency issues considered more valuable than a 60+ player who’s the same age? La la land that’s where. Players like jake are a dime a dozen. The league is filled with 3rd line role players that can crash and bang. It’s a very easy role to replace and it’s why very few muckers get paid big dollars until they are able to produce as well. If jake can put it all together and have everything click then he could become a special player. But it’s like Stan smyl said, the team has been patient with him and they are happy with his progress. but now it’s up to him and it’s up to him to figure it out quick because the next crop or prospects is going to pass him if he doesn’t.
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Ehlers is 22. Blake wheelers first post season at 22 he played 8 games and also put up zero points. It takes time to learn how to adjust play in that different type of environment. Ehlers will be fine and a few years that 6 mill cap hit will be considered a steal. What role do you think jets were missing? They have plenty of size and grit. What they really need is a guy with a skill set like Ehlers to pull his weight. Yes or No. Teams structure their cap with the intentions of signing their most valued players to the highest salary? Yes or No A player earns his contract based on the shown/perceived value the team believes he brings to the team? if depth role players are better players than pure skilled guys why do they take up significantly less cap?
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Stop sniffing glue Alf. While you are right that you need role players that play physical, just being physical doesn’t mean you have more value than a player who’s pure skill and can produce 60+ points. Rosters need all types of players in order to win and players like jake become important components. But don’t confuse being an important component with being a key components. Value is primarily based on production, just look at the leagues top paid players all players who can put up points. It’s because scoring is the hardest thing to do. Any joe blow can run around hitting guys but very few can produce. There’s a reason why Matt Martin has never made more than 2.5 million per season.
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You have to consider what Jake is today, not what you think he could be. It’s not really fair to just claim guys like Bennett and Ritchie are “just third liners” when that’s exactly what Jake is…and at this point are those two players are the more effective 3rd line players. Sure Jake could become more, but if he can, why aren’t others being held to the same hopes. While you may not be sold on Vrana, what has Jake shown to sell you that he’d be worth more? If you are comparing players to what you think they could be it’s really any ones game. Players like Ryan Donato, Kamenev and Fabbri all have high ceilings that are still being developed. But if we are comparing players based what they’ve currently accomplished, I’d say in the first 60 picks Hands down better than Jake – Draisaitl, Pastrnak, Larkin, Reinhart, Tuch, Vrana, Kapanen, Fiala, Ehlers, Ekblad, Sanhiem, Montour, Schmaltz, Nylander Slightly better than Jake - Ritichie, Bennett, McCann, Dvorak, DeAngelo, Kempe
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[GDT/PGT] Nucks @ Flames / Flames @ Nucks
ForsbergTheGreat replied to xereau's topic in Canucks Talk
Sounds like flames are sending there B/C squad to Victoria. Any word on who canucks send to Calgary? -
[Rumor] Boeser Camp Eyeing 4 Year Deal Worth $28M
ForsbergTheGreat replied to buddyguy's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
Brock Boeser is worth a 6 year $7.25 million deal at the cheapest. That is the market value. Nylander signed a 6 year deal 1 year ago and was awards 6.9 million, Brock Boeser is better that Nylander. Nylander in his first 3 years (185 games) put up 48 goals and 135 points (.73p/gp). Brock in his first 3 years (140 games) put up 59 goals and 116 points (.83p/gp) Meier in his first 3 years (193 games) put up 54 goals and 108 points (.56p/gp). He hasda solid campaign last year putting up .85 p/gp, slightly higher than brocks .81p/gp last season. That campaign earned him a 4 year deal. His cap hit is 6 million but he structured his deal to value his 5th year and beyond has to be qualified more 10 + million bringing his 6 year value to 7.33 million. Another comparable is Johnny Gaudreau. This is the most accurate comparable as he was also 10.2(c ) player. He was also brought up after his college ended just so that he could write off a season and get paid earlier. Gaudreau in his first 3 years (160 games) put up 55 goals and 143 points (.89p/gp). Johnny inked a 6 year deal for 6.75 three years ago when the cap was only 73million. The cap has risen just over 12% in the last 3 years, if we are to inflate Johnny’s 2016 contract into 2019 value that same contract is worth 7.56mill per year. As Brock has slightly less production and a few injury question marks it would reasonable take off 250k per year (1.5 million over term). Bringing Brock’s 6 year market value to 7.25 mill. That is the bar, and it’s why he likely did reject the previous offer of 6 year 42 million. -
Well I like finding stupid excuses to chug beer. So if not jake who’s the shotgun target this year? Millers for miller? booze for Hughes ....Or just take shots of vodka anytime goldy scores.
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Yeah we will see. I’m really high on him. I think he’ll be a leaf for a long time but also make a bucket load of cash. He wouldn’t be the first GM to change his mind. I think players would quickly forget if the trade helped the team get better and make a longer post season run. I don’t know if there are too many people feeling sympathy or are in Nylander court. While I agree, they shouldn’t be getting… You can understand why. No one wants to look at there coworkers and see them getting paid more for doing less regardless of their signing situation. Earning those rights or not really doesn’t matter when you are considering value. The cap is fix, which changes things, there’s only so much of the pie to go around and players rightfully want their fair piece. I don’t think anyone on Canucks roster cares that Eriksson was signed as a UFA and thus over inflated. They see a piece of their pie being wasted. While we talk about the team culture and precedent having that much of your cap being wasted and preventing your team from getting better it’s easy to have the me first mentality. If you want to win everyone has to live up to their own share. You can’t over pay the vets just because and expect the most critical pieces less just because. UFA’s play a big roll on RFA’s, maybe not exact dollars but it sets the number in the ball park. I hope JB does too but he and Dubas also have a max cap on there side. Neither of them can afford to over pay either player without going over the cap. Brock maxes out at 7.1ish before we have to trade someone so that’s his limit. We just have to figure out the term that fits. Yep you are right.
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[Rumor] Boeser Camp Eyeing 4 Year Deal Worth $28M
ForsbergTheGreat replied to buddyguy's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
Nope you’re not missing anything. @aGENT is just trying to move the goalposts again. -
[Rumor] Boeser Camp Eyeing 4 Year Deal Worth $28M
ForsbergTheGreat replied to buddyguy's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
fabrication? Keller is making 7.15 for 8 years = fact nylander making 6.9 for 6 years = fact Gaudreau signing 3 years ago 6.75 for 6 years = fact these are undeniable facts. -
[Rumor] Boeser Camp Eyeing 4 Year Deal Worth $28M
ForsbergTheGreat replied to buddyguy's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
Very left wing of you. “I believe My opinion is right thus won’t acknowledge the other side no matter how reasonable or logical it might be” But really we both know you did read it and aren’t capable of responding since it completely rips apart your opinion -
[Rumor] Boeser Camp Eyeing 4 Year Deal Worth $28M
ForsbergTheGreat replied to buddyguy's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
Why. Keller just got more. Nylander got more. Gaudreau 3 years ago got 6.75 for 6 years having very comparable numbers and being in the same class of RFA status .89p/gp vs .83p/gp. The cap has went up 12% since then. Simple math suggests brock should be getting 7.56 for 6 years. Maybe he’s earns slightly less due to injuries. Fine drop it to 7.25 per year. Suggesting he’s would 6.5 for 6 years is not based on comparables or logic. It’s just a number you felt comfortable with without doing any actual research on. Stawns is about as clueless as they come. Claims Brock isn’t a sure thing despite having put up .83p/gp (116 points in 140 games by the age of 22. Believes injuries my limits him. Then on the flip side thinks joulevi will be better than tkachuk, despite having played in zero nhl games and a even worse injury record. Yeah ok then. Talk about la la land Brocks market value is worth more than you are claiming. Provorov and morrissey are defensemen that while have high ceilings haven’t really broke out. Not really great comparables. Brock in the other hand has proven his talent and was a Calder runner up to boot. Comparable forwards are making more than you are suggesting. Anything over 6 years and Brock who’s still got another level he can hit will be leaving money on the table for anything under 7.25 mill. He wants a short term deal to hit, bet on himself and hit a home run in 3 years. He can see what a 40 goal season lands you (skinner just got 9). -
It makes sense. It’s what that roster needs. I think your underrating matthews by a long shot. He put up the same p/gp as Tavares with linemates like Hyman and kapanen. Meanwhile Tavares gots marner and marleau. He’s easily the best player on his team and is a true generational talent. If the NHL today had a fantasy draft out of players to build around Matthews would be in the top 5. Id almost argue top 3 behind McDavid and mackinnon. See i don’t see it at all that way. Matthews is there superstar. He was there biggest priority to locking up and he’s the last player the leafs wanted to be in a marner/Nylander situation. Matthews will be the leafs next captain. Matthews only has one full season under his belt so it makes more sense for him to take a shorter contract, bet on himself and hit a massive home run as his enters his prime, as he hit UFA power. He’s going to maximize his total NHL take home. It’s likely the same line of thinking Brock is going through right now. Matthews is Toronto’s future. A key to winning is a really strong 1-2 punch down the middle. They have that with Tavares and Matthews. He will have too. He’s the lowest on the chopping block among the top 4. Reilly and andersson are getting raises in 2-3 years. And it’s not like Nylander really cares, if he did want to be a leaf for life, he wouldn’t have threaten to hold out and miss an entire season over 3 million. RFA are looking around and noticing that they are often better players than the guys getting big contracts as UFA thus deserve as much or more even though they don’t have the same bargaining power. They only tool they have is offer sheets and holding out. This year it’s really setting in. I would say those big overpriced UFA signings play just as big of part in inflating RFA contracts. Teams fall into the UFA trap and overpay all the time and it becomes this compounding snow ball of players asking for more and more. I hate to say it but JB is part of this overall issue. in order to entice players enough he throws out another $ or and extra year in term. Beagle, Roussel, Sutter (was a RFA), and Myers are all making 500k-1 mill too much. We’re still seeing the effects of that gagner signing. You start to add that up and finding space to signing Brock isn’t even a question any more. And I didn’t even include LE’s $6 million hit. And that’s not to pick on JB because every team does it. Flames with Neal, frolik...., oilers with lucic,sekera....UFA gets teams into trouble and pressured GM’s handing out over priced UFA contracts plays a major role in inflating all contracts.
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[Rumor] Boeser Camp Eyeing 4 Year Deal Worth $28M
ForsbergTheGreat replied to buddyguy's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
Yeah... No. -
I agree I would have made him sit the season or I’d actually probably would have been looking hard at dealing him from a steady right shot D. I actually don’t think Matthews’ is that bad. The bar was pre set with Leon, McDavid and eichel. He was going to get paid. I don’t think that was a realistic option. You don’t trade a superstar elite player. That would be like canucks trading petey. Matthews is their best player and it’s not really close. You don’t move them. I think he will this season. He’s still a really good hockey player. But I think that as soon as he builds his trade value up, he will be moved out. Leafs need that cap for D. Yeah I think we will be ok. But we will see how who caves first, what benning has in his corner is the our limited cap room. I also think UFA’s have been hurting this league. 12 players are making 10 mill+. Heck McDavid makes up 16.7% of his teams cap hit. I would love to see the next CBA look at this and limit that to 12%, 20% max is ridiculous. 12 would allow some GM’s make some savvy deals to build really elite teams. Players would chose where to plays more based on competitiveness and less about chasing the $.
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Benning trying to get to "common ground" with Boeser
ForsbergTheGreat replied to BrockBoester's topic in Canucks Talk
I said this in the other thread but GM's don't have the leash to play hard ball. Players see this and know that at some point the team will cave and pay. Very few gm's are willing to put their own job and lively hood on the online to stand firm set a team precedent. -
JB hasn't really been in the situation of having to sign am elite young player yet, Brock is really the first one and we will see how that goes. You could argue that about Bo but i'd say he wasn't in the same company as the other peer signings from the 2016-2017 seasons. While the team (TO) was doing well, they were also in a great window. Matthews and Marner were still on ELC, Marleau was still playing good and it was the perfect time to take advantage that last year of cap freedom. In the end Nylander did get overpaid but really not by much, I'd say his value is closer to 6.25 million, so really he's only getting a 700k overpayment which isn't that bad on a normal roster. It becomes more noticeable when you are trying to pay out big contracts to 3 other guys, I think he gets moved next summer but I also thinks he's quite underrated on these board in the two full seasons Nylander played he's out produced Marner in even strength points and did that while receiving 132 less ozone starts. I'm not saying he's better than marner, who plays a better all around game just that I don't think Nylander is the albatross people love to make him out to be. BB is one of our top line wingers but realistically this teams window hasn't even opened up yet. We might see it crack open a peak this year if all goes well. The pressure solely relies on the the individual GM's leash and in Canada all Gm's leashes are quite short. I don't think JB is willing to risk loosing his job over setting a team precedent no more than a 30 year old Dubas was. I agree about the cocky part but he wasn't the one that started this trend. Eichel getting 10 million in 2017 comes to mind. Kane and Toews got paid big and really started the big super star contracts but at least they had cup rings. I look at many of these RFA's who are leaving ELC and then willing to hold out for big dollars all doing hat without having ever won 2 rounds of playoffs yet.
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He probably should have with Nylander but you can understand why he didn't and why 99% of GM end up caving in the end (especially in Canada). A GM's shelf life is short lived in Canada and the pressure to win is extremely high. Just think of the reaction if JB did that with Brock and Canucks end up bottom feeding for another year. It would take a ton of balls, but it your right it would really set the precedent that this team ONLY wants players who want to be here, players who part of this team's culture, more than players who are focussed on themselves, trying to squeeze every dollar they can. Back on Nylander, i think it looks even worse when the player holds out and still ends up getting overpaid. After the season starts the teams offer should be reducing. If you're going to cave and over pay, do that in the summer and bypass the two month long charade. Rookie mistake, by a rookie GM. JB's had a few of those too, we will see if Dubas has learned or if he's getting used to bending over.
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Teams really should do this. How stupid would it be for the player to miss out on one seasons pays because they were holding out for an extra 500k-1mill per year. One seasons pay for Marner is worth more than the difference in the discount. Cost of Marner missing one season = 11 mill Cost of Marner taking a $1 Million/year discount on a 8 year deal = 8 mill I'd have a ton of respect for dubas (or any GM for that matter) to put their foot down and say here's a reasonable offer, here's the dead line. If you are not signed by then talks are off till next season and stick to it.
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[Rumor] Boeser Camp Eyeing 4 Year Deal Worth $28M
ForsbergTheGreat replied to buddyguy's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
That's true they could run a 22 man roster but it wouldn't be recommended to do it more than a game or two. A few guys will get bumped up and will need a night off every now and then. I'm ok with JB holding out too. Really these players have zero leverage.. Holding out missing a season over 500k-1mill per season doesn't make much since when missing the year will cost them 7 million. The players have too much power and are playing a game of chicken that the teams pressure to win is greater...which may be true but the "team" includes there teammates and putting yourself over your family that you are about to go to war with is never the best outcome. -
[Rumor] Boeser Camp Eyeing 4 Year Deal Worth $28M
ForsbergTheGreat replied to buddyguy's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
My first post on the topic that people were replying to... Or how about the post that started this conversation off, @aGENT you know... the one you first replied to. hmmm. seems to me like term was exactly what the discussion is about......haha and you want to talk about embarrassing? derp....hasn't school started yet? -
[Rumor] Boeser Camp Eyeing 4 Year Deal Worth $28M
ForsbergTheGreat replied to buddyguy's topic in Trades, Rumours, Signings
If it puts up the dollars for sure pay the man. I’m just concerned and don’t want us becoming a top end heavy cap crunch like the leafs and oilers. Part of being a successful franchise is having a number guys on team friendly deals. Maybe one or two super stars but having 3 or 4 guys take up a size able chunk makes it hard to build a winner.