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Everything posted by ForsbergTheGreat
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Ok, perfect, so you think if a player has more career total goals and games played then they are further ahead in their development.... There for using that logic i guess we can conclude that Yakupov is further ahead in development than Teravainen? Both drafted in 2011. Yak has more goals and games played then Teravainen... Of course we all know that is wrong. If you really want to compare where players are at in terms of development it's best to use the most recent stats for comparison, not career total, because development isn't always forward progression, players stall and regress all the time. And in this case if we compared both Yakupov and Teravainen's most recent year we'd see that in the 2017-18 season, Yak was a healthy scratch most of the time and only played 40 games, 3 goals and 9 points where, Teravainen played 81 games, 15 goals and 41 points. Now using the most recent stats along with context around them we can get a much more accurate picture. Hence why it's just plain dumb to keep stating that. Because incorrect information tends to spread on this forum. for example see the poster above.
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i think it's because the point has been beaten to death already. It's not valid. Do you think using "total" games played and goals is an accurate indicator for comparing where players are at in their hockey career development.
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Everyone who's played the sport knows goalies tend to have a few screws loose, so you're opinion tends to take a hit when you admit that. You keep preaching 2+2=6, and we'll keep telling you, you're wrong. I see you completely ignored my last response on your little theory, and yet you're back at it preaching the same thing.
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Unfortunately it's extremely in accurate and very misleading as it uses averages for every 500 and 100 years and then decide to make a sample on 16 years to draw a conclusion from. In the process it completely misses all the spikes that actually happens, simply because it wouldn't support it's position. And if you are actually interested in actual science.You can read this article which talks about solar insolation angles being the main cause for change in temperature of the earth over the last 20,000 years. I guess it's less fun then to point fingers and blame other people, but the real enemy is likely just the sun. https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/09/29/earths-obliquity-and-temperature-over-the-last-20000-years/
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Thanks and now I got you cornered Does the fact that Jake has more goals and games played than Nick Schmaltz mean he's further his NHL career development path? Only an idiot would say yes, (rob I know you are stubborn but I don't think you're an idiot). What jake accomplished 2 years ago doesn't have an impact on where we rate the player is today. Yakupov has more career goals and games played than Teravainen are you really going to stand by that logic, which would indicate that Yakupov is further his NHL career development path? See how stupid and flawed that logic is.... There are a number of factors that go into wether a player plays NHL games early in their career or not. Things like the team they got drafted to, positional depth, commitment to collage and individual physical build, play a far more important role in a young kid, playing NHL games. Development isn't a constant forward movement of progression, players can and often do take steps back in their development. In order to get an accurate comparison in where a player is at in their development, it would be common sense for one to use the most recent year to get a more accurate comparable. (Which I did and you ignored), especially when all first round picks are at the point to be playing within the only two NA pro leagues. So far this year, Jake has been playing good in the preseason and it is what he needs to keep doing if he wants to earn a spot on this team. Hopefully these games help him build confidence to be that PWF this team has been lacking.
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Ok using that criteria, is MT better than Juolevi?
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I think that's a bit of an over exaggeration, i watched enough games in utica to know that he was extremely inconsistent, even in the last half. He would play 3-5 games working hard creating chances and then he'd the next 3-5 games off. This happens right up until the end of the year. The last 10 games when Utica was right in the middle of the push, i thought he didn't play that great, He was noticeable in maybe 3 games but disappeared on other nights, Kassian esq. In the end, he needs to translate things into some form of points, That doesn't mean being a point per game but it does need to be better. He's at the age when we need to see consistent results not just consistent effort (that's what you expect in years 1 and 2 post draft). The point of my post is to show how really far behind in offense he really was compared to the rest of his peers. Every player was almost double their percent of production compared to him. That's a bit more than a bounce or two here and there going his way. The good news for him, is he has this year to get off on a good start. Expectation need to be clear and set from the outset for him by mgmt. None of this dragging him along in the NHL playing min minutes and then sitting him in press box. The start of last year was a set back and it made him play catch up all year long. I hope we've learned from those mistakes and start him off on the right track.
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I don't really by the hitmen being that bad for his development. They were the team that built up his hype to begin with. He would have got plenty of ice time as that team was weak on offense upfront. The first line from the year before (Tambellini, Rankin and Lang) all had moved on so Jake along with line mate from the year before Fazleev and Stukel would have been the teams top offensive production. The club can't do anything about a players summer training, it's in the CBA that the club has no rights to a players off season decisions. They can provide access to the work out facility but that's really all they can do. I hope he takes this year seriously and is able to break out, because if he doesn't JB likely isn't holding a roster spot open to find out.
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And what you're failing to see is that games played in the NHL at this point is a meaningless stat. 9 players have played more games in the 2016 draft year than Juolevi, does that some how correlate or imply that they are better players, does that mean he's dropped in play? Does that mean Tkachuk is better? What you ignore is that in terms of progress from the 2014 draft year is that Jake has fallen well past the 12th and 14th, respectively. he's dropped past the top 30. I'd challenge to you to name 2 players taken in the 1st round of 2014 that had a worse year than Jake last year? I'll even gift you a head start, Connor Bleackley is one, can you name another? ..... I know you probably wont follow up with an answer so I'll just do the work. Bored Monday morning. There were 9 players from the 2014 draft that played full time in the NHL last year. All of them produced over .30 ppg Ekblad ppg= 0.31 Reinhart ppg= 0.59 Draisaitl ppg= 0.94 Bennett ppg= 0.32 Nylander ppg= 0.75 Ehlers ppg= 0.78 Ritchie ppg= 0.36 Larkin ppg= 0.40 Pastrnak ppg= 0.93 21 players (the rest of the 2014, first round draft class) all played games in the AHL. Only two players produces under .30 ppg at the AHL: Dal Colle ppg= 0.55 Virtanen ppg= 0.29 Fleury ppg= 0.38 Fiala ppg= 0.86 Perlini ppg= 1.12 Vrana ppg= 0.73 Honka ppg= 0.62 Milano ppg= 0.75 Sanheim ppg= 0.49 Tuch ppg= 0.65 DeAngelo ppg= 0.64 Schmaltz ppg= 0.75 Fabbri ppg= 0.75 Kapanen ppg= 1.00 Bleackley ppg= 0.22 McCann ppg= 0.60 Scherbak ppg= 0.62 Goldobin ppg= 0.92 Ho-Sang ppg= 0.72 Kempe ppg= 0.43 Quenneville ppg= 0.79 Now Jake isn't the only powerforward in his draft class (Perlini/Ritchie/Tuch) and they haven't struggled as much, so we can throw that theory out the window. The facts that don't lie is that it's not that Jake isn't living up to some loft expectation of being a generational talent or that he's not in the NHL being a top 6 forward, it's that Jakes development the last two years has stalled, while all his peers (as shown above) have continued to progress to the point that 99% of them have surpassed him. His development can't be summarized any other way than being called a disappointment. Now yes Jake can turn it around, but that brings up the other concern. When and if he does will it be on the roster of the Vancouver Canucks? Because we rushed Jake into the NHL, not only did it hurt his development, it's removed another year of ELC. Where a player like Dal Colle can spend 2 more years in the AHL developing without having to worry about getting claimed, Jake only has this year of that freedom. That means that Jake has 12 months to prove he's a full time NHLer. Jake has an intriging skill set so I don't see a 22 year old like him making it through waivers without being claimed. That puts a ton of pressure on the canucks org to make sure another set back like last years start doesn't happen. There's a lot to be concerned over of our 2014 6th overall pick. His progress upto this point has not been good, his maturity has faltered and the timeline we have him under an ELC is against him. At the end of last year he took his first steps forward. We will find out in less than a month if these steps turn into a sprint or if we end up taking a few steps back.
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Sedin, Sedin, Vanek Baer, Horvat Gagner Granlund, Sutter, Eriksson Rodin Gaunce Dorsett Edler Tanev Hutton Stecher Del Zotto Gudy That means there are only 3 extra spots. That means pick three and the rest are getting waived (possibly claimed) Boucher, Burmistrov, Chaput, Megna, Biega, Wierchioch, Pedan, McEneny
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He's not even close to the upper half of the first round of his draft year. If you think using NHL games played represents success then I guess that applies to chychrun and tkachuk over juolevi too. And since I know how much you hate MT, that would be a check mate my friend, unless it's some sort of a double standard you have. Fact of the mater is only 3 other picks in that first round had a less productive season than Jake last year. Every other player (including all the d) was either producing in the NHL or producing at a higher rate than Jake last season. That's not a lie that's a fact. And Power forwards developing slower is a myth, There's a long list of PWF who were able to produce at a young age, likely at the same rate as non power forwards, you might be able to find a small list of players that didn't peak till later in there careers but you can find that list of players with any skill set, For example Naslund and sedins weren't a power forwards they peaked in their late 20's. could we also say skill forwards also peak later, probably not. Hartnell put up 41 points as a 19 year old, Bertuzzi put up 39 points as a 20 year old, Lucic put up 41 points in 71 games as a 20 year old. Simmonds put up 40 points as a 21 year old, Benn put up 40 points as a 20 year old, Horton put up 47 points as a 20 year old Staal put up 42 points as a 18 year old Hanzal 35 points in 72 games as a 20 year old E.Kane put up 43 points as a 19 year old Even Ritchie and tuch are two pwf from the same year as Jake, yet both were able to produce in the AHL, Nick put up 30 points in 38 games last year and Alex put up 37 points in 57 games this year. Why does the "he's a pwf so we can expect his production to be slow (even in the AHL)" only apply to Jake Sure some PWF don't develop at the "NHL" level right away but the successful ones are still able to produce at the AHL level. Doan put up 42 points in 39 AHL games, Brown put up 74 points in 79 AHL games, Kassian put up 26 points in 30 AHL games, Kesler put up 54 points in 78 AHL games, These are the facts. You say patient's, I say that's covering your eyes and ignoring reality, these facts provide undeniable evidence that Jakes development hasn't exactly been on the right track so far. Now some people with take this as me calling him a bust, which i'm not saying, All i'm doing in laying out that yes, using facts there is a fair case for criticism and there is a legitimate argument for concern over his play. There's nothing to be proud about how things have went so far, but I do think he can and will play better than what he's shown up to this point. Hopefully we see it this year.
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Yep, people like to assume were going to be able to role all 4 lines, with each line getting equal opportunity, playing around 15 min. But that is a pipe dream.
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That's not how i've read it, to me it's being portrayed as "these players broke out later so we shouldn't be worried about how Jake as played up to this point" and because of it is void of any criticism. Exactly, it is too soon but his progressing, maturity, and production has been disappointing. Green did say he started getting thing by the end of the year but we will see how that transitioned this summer. I do think he will still amount to a NHL player but into a middle 6 type role player in the like of a Hansen or torres, which I would be happy with. This year is huge for him. He needs to show some consistent progress, our pool is filling up fast and a franchise wont just wait around leaving a roster spot open for him in hopes he does figure it out. I do think he will and hopefully find away to provide some benefit at the NHL level but another slow year and there could be a good chance he's package up in a trade.
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To the entire hockey world. Even to Jake Virtanen himself would say he hasn't been happy with how things have went since being drafted. Great list some more players that comparison with Jake, When forsberg at 19 guess what he was doing? Not struggling in the AHL. He was putting up 47 points in 39 SEL games. How does that compare to Jake. Yes players do take time but they also progress through there stages, Virtanen draft +3 years 19 points in 65 games. Compared to..... Symth was a 60 point player in the NHL draft +3 year Forsberg was a Oylmpic gold medal winner MVP, draft +3 year Koivu was putting up 30 points in 45 games in SM-Liiga Brassard was putting up 25 points in 31 games in the NHL,, draft +3 year Upshall was putting up 46 points in 62 games in the AHL,, draft +3 year Zibanejad was over a ppg in the AHL and a .47ppg player in the NHL draft +3 years, Michalek was a 66 point player in the NHL draft +3 year You sure proved your point there. I never said that Jake can't break out, i'm saying up to this point he hasn't shown much of anything to suggest he will. All people are going off is his skill set and hope, because every other indicator say's he's struggled since being drafted. It's not about just expectations, it's about progressing, he has shown very little progress, while 90% of his counterparts have. Stop trying to defend that, i know people love to be homers and feel like any sort of criticism is someone attacking him but sometimes you just need to take a deep breath and realise the the criticism is fair, it doesn't mean he can't turn it around. He's not a write off but to act as if we should be satisfied with how his development has went at this stage is just plain dumb.
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It seems like there are two extreme sides here. One side thinks Jake is going to have a Doan like career and another side seems to think Jake will never play a full season in the NHL and he's likely going to end up somewhere in the middle. Let’s be honest, since Jake was drafted he hasn’t done anything other than a few very small streaks of showing he’s going to be something more than a career AHLer. He’s been a disappointing 6th overall pick in every way since being drafted, to say he hasn’t would just be a down right lie. But that doesn’t mean he can’t potentially turn it around. Because of his skill set, he could find his stride and become an effective NHLer, it could happen but that belief is based on hope. The argument for hope is mostly supported by examples of players that broke out later in their careers…. but for every player that broke out, there are 5-10 more that didn’t. There are a lot of things going against Jake and it will really come down to what he’s able to show THIS year, (that means putting up some points, it’s what is expected from a 6th overall pick). Next year he’s no longer going to be exempt from waivers, so he will have to make the team or we risk him getting claimed for nothing. Next year there are a number of other rookies looking to surpass him on the depth chart, so he’s really got the next 8 months to prove his worth. I’ve watched a lot of Jake with the Hitmen and I do think he could be an effective player in a “supporting” role. He’s not going to be a line driver, and that’s why I think his top ceiling would be E.Kane (who oddly enough is a UFA next year and could find a home in Vancouver) but more realistic expectations would be Hansen and even Torres and that’s nothing to be looked down upon. Teams need those types of role players in order to win. Jake reaching anything more than that is a bonus, like when you find an extra 20 in your pocket from the night before.
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Most players go free lance and chose the trainer of their choice. Teams will sit down with players and tell them what they think they should work on but the routines and workout schedules is up to the player. Teams aren't allowed to really be involved on a players off season
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What he really meant to say was "we'll miss him, but not as much as Tammy Horton and Talia Chiarelli will."
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They're hockey players not body builders. I've got more muscle definition now than when i played competitive hockey. Does this guy looked shredded to you?
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You do realize they are wearing different shirts. Anyone with some sort of definition knows that some shirts show off definition better than others. I've got shirts I wear to lounge around the house and I got another group that I'll where if i'm going out anywhere. I also have the same shirt Seguin is wearing which is an Under Armour work out shirt designed to fit tight and wick away moister. While it looks like Jake is wearing a lose fitting everyday t shirt. .
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Goldy reminds me a lot of Baertschi earlier with the canucks. Both guys look energetic when they have the puck and unmotivated when they don’t. Players like him need confidence and they just need to be allowed to play their own game. They’ve dominated every league they have ever played in, the skill is there we just need them to feel comfortable. Good on WD for finally giving him a confidence boost with his time with the twins last season and PP time. That’s exactly what it takes, once they realize they can play in this league, the confidence, the energy and the compete all increase. As much as people don’t want to hear it, not all players develop the same way, some players need to be catered to. It might seem unfair but the end result becomes a high skilled player, that contributes to this team offensively. Something this team desperately needs, an exciting offensive minded forward.
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That's because he doesn't. Sutter had hit the 40 point mark once in his career. He's closer to a 15/15/30 player and that's with playing with line mates that can get him the puck while playing 17+ minutes a game. Take away his ice time and line mates and he's a jay beagle, biggest difference it beagle makes 2.5 million less.
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shhh...You're not allowed to give any credit to Nylander....positive talk about Nylander is strictly prohibited since it opens up the possibility that perhaps canucks made the wrong choice in 2014.....
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Basically your stating that you'd be willing to sacrifice the team’s success for enjoyment over me getting upset about the deal… Hate to break it to you JR, that’s not being a canucks fan that’s being a troll…glad we could clear that up.
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I think everyone's facial expression would anger. In fact I would be shocked if anyone wouldn't be upset with that. JB would be fired on the spot.