silverpig Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Wow, calm down everyone. The example of the first nations couple was not racist, it was just a real-world example. If he had said "a really dirty man came on the train" would it have been sexist? No way. The only racist thing about this whole conversation is that you all FOUND 'racism' in it. He was giving a real example from his life - it's you guys who indirectly transferred one independent scenario to "all native people," probably because you connect it to pre-existing stereotypes that YOU already all have in YOUR heads. If it was an offhand comment maybe it'd be fine, but he was already talking about race. He brought it up in the first place, then gave an example to illustrate his point. Shortened, his post essentially was: "Asians have better hygiene. For example, this first nations couple smelled really bad." He used that particular couple to generalize to a whole race. In your dirty man scenario above, saying "man" is purely a descriptive term, not one that implies a generalization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Columbo Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) If it was an offhand comment maybe it'd be fine, but he was already talking about race. He brought it up in the first place, then gave an example to illustrate his point. Shortened, his post essentially was: "Asians have better hygiene. For example, this first nations couple smelled really bad." He used that particular couple to generalize to a whole race. I understand what you're saying, but since I don't think that was his intention, your summary of his post is only accurate in your mind. In your dirty man scenario above, saying "man" is purely a descriptive term, not one that implies a generalization. Again, the implication is only in your head. Why can "man" be purely a descriptive term, but "First Nations" can't be? Here's the difference for me: if he had said "bad smelling man," you wouldn't call him sexist, you'd say he's just being descriptive. Why? Because you know that the average man probably doesn't stink - "man" is not a bad smelling group of the population in your mind. In contrast, when he says "First Nations" you immediately jump to a generalization. And why in this case? Because in your mind, YOU associate First Nations people with bad odor. Otherwise you would have also glossed it over as a descriptive term as well. That's how I see it, anyway. edit, I'm in no way suggesting that you're racist. I'm just trying to defend nitronuts, because I don't think that he's racist either. Edited July 21, 2009 by Columbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) I know your intent but that one comment about the one first nations couple was pretty out of line. There are bad examples in every race and the implication was that natives smell. Other than that your generalization is somewhat accurate. When someone in Japan has a cold they wear a face mask so as not to spread it. No one does that here. Well, my intent was to make note that these were First Nations people entering the train.....no different if I were to say "Chinese couple", "East Indian couple", "Latino couple", "Caucasian couple", etc. I didn't exactly say nor did I intend to imply that all First Nations peoples smell. Japan has some of the highest population densities in the world, if not the highest. Over there you probably pass by hundreds of thousands of people on your daily commute to work and home....germs spread easily, thus why masks are more common in Asian countries. Edited July 21, 2009 by nitronuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I've been to Hong Kong and Japan half a dozen times for extended stays and I ride their metro systems everyday. Even in a packed train, people generally smell cleaner than the people here when I ride SkyTrain. It's certainly not being racist, it's what I notice from experience. edit: or maybe it's just that in Hong Kong and Japan, all the trains are cleaned throoughly at the end of each day coupled by the fact that their trains have much better ventilation/air conditioning so that all the bad smells get vented out even in a packed train. Quit back pedaling - you made reference to specific races of people why? It certainly was racist, if you base it on the same set of standards you judged me on. I made a statement that was similar to yours and you jumped all over it - double standards do eventually get caught. No matter how you pretty it up - it absolutely was racist. When you use specific races to generalize in a negative way, what else is it? You could've left off the adjectives and still made your point. If you'd just said the trains smell better elsewhere, it could've passed for what you're pretending. But you certainly made it clear that some stinky people made for an unpleasant experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) Maybe you should read more into the topic, the following posts ....certainly, it has nothing to do with prejudices, stereotypes, nor racism. It's simply my experience on Asian transit systems and comparing that to what we have here, and again perhaps the difference is because the trains are cleaned thoroughly everyday and there is much better air-con/ventilation in the trains. Oh bull. Your post, here let me remind you: "lol, never. Not here. People don't know how to pack here....and thankfully they don't as a lot smell quite awful. The Japanese, Koreans, and Hong Kongers/Chinese tend to have a much better hygiene. I recall a First Nations couple boarding the train even though it was packed to the door. They smelled gawd awful, and several people made grimaces and left the train to board the train behind it. That's just one of many "bad smell" occurrences I've had...most others involved homeless people on buses and trains." didn't paint that picture at all - you directly said they have better "hygiene", implying people here are dirty. Nothing was said by you about ventilation, etc. It was your buddy covering your tail. Busted. Now, ease up on others because I guess you're only human too...despite the fact that you think you're perfect. I'm letting this rest now because I don't like swaying off topic...but to those who don't know nitro's past (and how he likes to point a finger at others), it goes beyond this thread. You could've said "a couple" entered the train and we would've got the picture if that was, in fact, where you were going with this. We're not stupid nitro - we got your point and by adding the "First Nations" part to paint an ugly picture you made it a racist comment, so own up and move on. Anything less would be digging the hole deeper. You're not letting this one slide - you clearly called me a racist for similar posting. So now it's my turn: Racist. And I'll offer the same advice I was given in the thread where you attacked me: if you don't like the stinky people here, move someplace else. Now, I'm not going to beat this to death like you guys did to me, but I hope you got the point. Something about glass houses.... Edited July 21, 2009 by debluvscanucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverpig Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I understand what you're saying, but since I don't think that was his intention, your summary of his post is only accurate in your mind. Again, the implication is only in your head. Why can "man" be purely a descriptive term, but "First Nations" can't be? Here's the difference for me: if he had said "bad smelling man," you wouldn't call him sexist, you'd say he's just being descriptive. Why? Because you know that the average man probably doesn't stink - "man" is not a bad smelling group of the population in your mind. In contrast, when he says "First Nations" you immediately jump to a generalization. And why in this case? Because in your mind, YOU associate First Nations people with bad odor. Otherwise you would have also glossed it over as a descriptive term as well. That's how I see it, anyway. edit, I'm in no way suggesting that you're racist. I'm just trying to defend nitronuts, because I don't think that he's racist either. Hey, I like nitronuts and don't think he's racist or anything, but his comment did set a few people off around here and does come across in an odd way to more than a few people. You have to take that to mean something. The issue is with context. He was talking about race already and then used a racial description in a negative way. If he was talking about how women generally have better hygiene than men and then said that a couple of bad smelling men came on the skytrain then, yeah, it'd be a little sexual stereotyping there. Actually, here's his post, edited to make it about sex instead of race: "lol, never. Not men. Men don't know how to pack here....and thankfully they don't as a lot smell quite awful. Women tend to have a much better hygiene. I recall a man boarding the train even though it was packed to the door. He smelled gawd awful, and several people made grimaces and left the train to board the train behind it. That's just one of many "bad smell" occurrences I've had...most others involved homeless people on buses and trains." Now imagine a woman saying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverpig Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Quit back pedaling - you made reference to specific races of people why? It certainly was racist, if you base it on the same set of standards you judged me on. I made a statement that was similar to yours and you jumped all over it - double standards do eventually get caught. No matter how you pretty it up - it absolutely was racist. When you use specific races to generalize in a negative way, what else is it? You could've left off the adjectives and still made your point. If you'd just said the trains smell better elsewhere, it could've passed for what you're pretending. But you certainly made it clear that some stinky people made for an unpleasant experience. Heh, I was wondering when you'd be in on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 Quit back pedaling - you made reference to specific races of people why? It certainly was racist, if you base it on the same set of standards you judged me on. I made a statement that was similar to yours and you jumped all over it - double standards do eventually get caught. No matter how you pretty it up - it absolutely was racist. When you use specific races to generalize in a negative way, what else is it? You could've left off the adjectives and still made your point. If you'd just said the trains smell better elsewhere, it could've passed for what you're pretending. But you certainly made it clear that some stinky people made for an unpleasant experience. The pot calling the kettle black? No, it wasn't meant to infer that race was smelly. You can twist it however you want, obviously for revenge after I harped on your rather outdated view of the world and society and your racist Asian comments several weeks ago. And as a gay guy, I'm quite open minded and certainly making stereotypes or even being racist is not something I'd ever do considering how people like me are near the bottom of the rut. Fact is, I've spent quite a bit of time in Hong Kong and Japan and their metro trains smell cleaner and while posting I had quickly assumed it was perhaps Asians simply kept a cleaner hygiene since they lived in crowded conditions. It never occurred to me until after that it might just be how clean the trains are and the powerful ventilation/air-con. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bob Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Guys.... Can we please get this topic back on track before someone gets banned or suspended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) The pot calling the kettle black? No, it wasn't meant to infer that race was smelly. You can twist it however you want, obviously for revenge after I harped on your rather outdated view of the world and society and your racist Asian comments several weeks ago. And as a gay guy, I'm quite open minded and certainly making stereotypes or even being racist is not something I'd ever do considering how people like me are near the bottom of the rut. Fact is, I've spent quite a bit of time in Hong Kong and Japan and their metro trains smell cleaner and while posting I had quickly assumed it was perhaps Asians simply kept a cleaner hygiene since they lived in crowded conditions. It never occurred to me until after that it might just be how clean the trains are and the powerful ventilation/air-con. Again, I call bull. You can "justify", "minimize", and "rationalize" all you want. It didn't work when I did it so you're not getting a free pass here. Gay has NOTHING to do with this (my best friends were gay). Just like when I tried to explain that my friends are Asians, and you chose to ignore it and roll with your agenda. Open minded or not - you did stereotype and make racist comments. They're here, in black and white, for all to see. So I'll leave you to argue by yourself...others can read for themselves. The second part of the quote is irrelevant - you used "first nations" to describe people in a negative way when, in fact, "a couple" was all that was necessary. And, excuses or not, that was a racist comment. I'm outta here - I fully you expect to continue but the text is clear and your attempts to justify your racist comment just make it even more pathetic. Quit while you're ahead. Edited July 21, 2009 by debluvscanucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bob Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 ">" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverpig Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 "> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) We should get CDC to start a friend fund for deb and nitro. $40 for beers and appies for the two of them at a pub. To qualify they just have to spend 30 minutes together and shake hands at the end of it all. I would honestly do that - we're both human and we both made the same mistake in steretyping people in order to make our point. So I will move on, but needed to address the very thing that he called me out on. Time to move on and get this (once informative) thread back on track. nitro? deal? I hope we've both learned from our mistakes and to watch how we word things, as they could be interpreted as offensive by others. "People". "Couple". We can lose the rest. Edited July 21, 2009 by debluvscanucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Common sense Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 All those in favor of renaming this the "gay transit geek vs stubborn woman" thread, say aye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bob Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I would honestly do that - we're both human and we both made the same mistake in steretyping people in order to make our point. So I will move on, but needed to address the very thing that he called me out on. Time to move on and get this (once informative) thread back on track. nitro? deal? I hope we've both learned from our mistakes and to watch how we word things, as they could be interpreted as offensive by others. "People". "Couple". We can lose the rest. Look on the bright side. If all else fails, you two could probably come to an agreement on how cute the bar tender is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Look on the bright side. If all else fails, you two could probably come to an agreement on how cute the bar tender is. I'll fight him for him. You buyin'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bob Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I'll fight him for him. You buyin'? Jagrebombs, all around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 Oh bull. Your post, here let me remind you: "lol, never. Not here. People don't know how to pack here....and thankfully they don't as a lot smell quite awful. The Japanese, Koreans, and Hong Kongers/Chinese tend to have a much better hygiene. I recall a First Nations couple boarding the train even though it was packed to the door. They smelled gawd awful, and several people made grimaces and left the train to board the train behind it. That's just one of many "bad smell" occurrences I've had...most others involved homeless people on buses and trains." didn't paint that picture at all - you directly said they have better "hygiene", implying people here are dirty. Nothing was said by you about ventilation, etc. It was your buddy covering your tail. Busted. Okay, perhaps but it was a stereotype but note that stereotypes are a result of ignorance. It had never occurred that ventilation/cleaner trains were one huge difference, resulting in two quite different the smell experiences I've had on both sides of the ocean. I know that after SARS, personal hygiene in Hong Kong was a mounting issue...people bathed daily, the streets were cleaned, garbage cans were installed in streets, massive fines for littering, etc. Compared to my 2001 experience of the city, my following experience of that city in 2005 was so much better (cleaner). At least I admitted it, whereas you went on for about 10 pages on how you weren't inferring to race. Coupled by the fact that over here, on SkyTrain, we have quite a few fare evading undesirables lurking onto trains....mainly the homeless and some punks that seem to have no regard at all for other people (for instance, bringing a pizza into a train then dropping it onto the floor; spilling a drink onto the floor and onto someone else...turns out it was beer; and then for some odd reason on rare occurrences some trains smell like urine). There are also different rules...over in Asia, it's a high fine for bringing food and open drinks onto the train and eating it. Here, it seems to be a norm...which makes spills quite a bit more common, and it makes it even worse if it isn't thoroughly cleaned right away. Now, ease up on others because I guess you're only human too...despite the fact that you think you're perfect. I'm letting this rest now because I don't like swaying off topic...but to those who don't know nitro's past (and how he likes to point a finger at others), it goes beyond this thread. You could've said "a couple" entered the train and we would've got the picture if that was, in fact, where you were going with this. We're not stupid nitro - we got your point and by adding the "First Nations" part to paint an ugly picture you made it a racist comment, so own up and move on. Anything less would be digging the hole deeper. You're not letting this one slide - you clearly called me a racist for similar posting. So now it's my turn: Racist. You can twist it however you want, for your own personal revenge reasons, but the First Nations comment was never intended to point out that First Nations were generally smelly. Good job on being the pot that calls the kettle black! And I'll offer the same advice I was given in the thread where you attacked me: if you don't like the stinky people here, move someplace else. lol, why would I move elsewhere? I love Vancouver....you on the other hand don't. I still think you should move somewhere else. :D Now, I'm not going to beat this to death like you guys did to me, but I hope you got the point. Something about glass houses.... We beated you to death as you seemed to have a very outdated perception of how the world works, in addition to your racist comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 But above all, my apologies for the stereotype comment I made. Anyhow, some pics of YVR's new expansion! It opened this past week, and it's an observation deck of the taxiway/runway....it's before the gates, so yes it's open to the public. There are a few exhibits, including a model and flight simulator. pics are from flickr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Common sense Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 So templeton Stn has this huge piece of pavement next to it, which I though was originally for the 400-expresses, till they got axed. The question is: what's its purpose now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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