UFCanuck Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Decent tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legstrong Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 It's based on a minimum games played minimum 15mins per game played to weed out defencemen who play 10 games at 5mins a game as they just skew stats. Sorry for the late response, but I just checked on NHL.com and there were close to 150 D-men in the 08-09 season who played at least 60 games averaging well over 15 min a game. Sorry but IMO, I don't think the stats you are using for/against Bieksa are accurate enough for this discussion. The use of stats to refute a player's value is really starting to get to me. For example, tonite Ballard clearly blocked about 6 shots but was awarded only 1 blocked shot for the night. If that is the case for every player for blocked shots, what about giveaways, takeaways, hits etc. I think sticking to the pts and pims are about the only way to gauge a player's effectiveness or ineffectiveness. In Bieksa's case, he has a lot of work cut out for him (as far as stats are concerned). Good defensive game tonite tho, keep it up Juice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 How is that irony? Is there such a thing as morony? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't.Mess.With.Kes<3 Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 bieksa played great tonight. Have to admit that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Is there such a thing as morony? I don't know...but some posts make a good case for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
لني Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Sorry for the late response, but I just checked on NHL.com and there were close to 150 D-men in the 08-09 season who played at least 60 games averaging well over 15 min a game. Sorry but IMO, I don't think the stats you are using for/against Bieksa are accurate enough for this discussion. The use of stats to refute a player's value is really starting to get to me. For example, tonite Ballard clearly blocked about 6 shots but was awarded only 1 blocked shot for the night. If that is the case for every player for blocked shots, what about giveaways, takeaways, hits etc. I think sticking to the pts and pims are about the only way to gauge a player's effectiveness or ineffectiveness. In Bieksa's case, he has a lot of work cut out for him (as far as stats are concerned). Good defensive game tonite tho, keep it up Juice! I'd be cusious to see what stats the coaches etc use if any. My guess is few. They will most likely rely on reviewing video tape. There is a lot of work being done on stats nowadays however there are a lot if holes in stats such as these. Corsi for example was created by Jim Corsi the Buffalo goaltending coach to determine how much work his tenders were facing. That was as far as it went. This was then taken by some and expanding to determine a teams possession play and ultimately individual players. There is lots of debate out there on stats such as Corsi. The point you have raised are particularily relevant to "complex" stats such as Corsi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c0medyClub Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 I'd be cusious to see what stats the coaches etc use if any. My guess is few. They will most likely rely on reviewing video tape. There is a lot of work being done on stats nowadays however there are a lot if holes in stats such as these. Corsi for example was created by Jim Corsi the Buffalo goaltending coach to determine how much work his tenders were facing. That was as far as it went. This was then taken by some and expanding to determine a teams possession play and ultimately individual players. There is lots of debate out there on stats such as Corsi. The point you have raised are particularily relevant to "complex" stats such as Corsi. Definitely not a fan of the corsi. There's better ways judging a player statistically then that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millerdraft Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 bieksa played great tonight. Have to admit that He had a stellar defensive game tonight with almost zero errors. However, you've also got to acknowledge that the NJD are the worst team in the league right now. They have zero offense, are missing 5 defencemen and their best player wasn't even playing due to injury (yes, Parise is a better all around player than Ilya "Goal Suck" Kovalchuk). Let's put it into perspective... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number One Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Games like tonight are the reason why we put up with him playing not so good at times. He's a monster of a sleeping giant at times. Monolith when he wants to be. Let's get that straight. Bieksa is the man. And he dates all of your moms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
لني Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 And he dates all of your moms. Thank god he can't "hit the broad side of a barn" then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer79 Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Definitely not a fan of the corsi. There's better ways judging a player statistically then that! I have to agree, the rating itself gets misinterpreted. You can have a high rating and still play sheltered minutes, so Qualcomp has to be considered too. If you're a D-man with a slightly negative rating, but are regularly put out against the opponent's top lines and logging 21 mins/game, are you really a worse player than a D-man with a positive rating, getting 15 mins/game and doing a decent job shutting down the opponent's 2nd or 3rd lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Bang Boogie Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Games like tonight are the reason why we put up with him playing not so good at times. He's a monster of a sleeping giant at times. Monolith when he wants to be. Let's get that straight. Bieksa is the man. And he dates all of your moms. Aww man...I knew it. Bieksa played well tonight though. He did a good job on Kovalchuk, one of the best scorers in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shift-4 Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 you played great last night keep Kovy off the scoresheet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 How many games has Bieksa had now to adjust to the loss of Mitchell? If he hasnt gotten over that yet, ship him out now because he never will. I am assuming you are referring to Mitchell, of course. If you are actually referring to Hamhuis, then explain why playing with a guy for 5 games makes him indispensable to your success and your ability to be a good player? Either way, it is a sad excuse for the troubles Bieksa is having. Do you just not get it or are you playing stupid here? Does the skill level of your D partner effect how you play your game? Does how well you know you're partners tendencies effect how you play your game? For example, last season would Bieksa be more comfortable jumping in the play with Mitchell backing him up than say Rome? How about playing alongside Alberts last season? You wouldn't maybe be a tad more conservative playing alongside the Alberts that arrived here than you would be playing with Mitchell as your partner? You can bury your head and call it excuses but I'll stick with my opinion. Who you're paired with, and how well you know him, has an effect on how you play. Just as you're more likely to take a risk down a goal with 5 minutes left than you would if up a goal with five minutes left. Circumstances have an effect on you're decision making. That includes who you're playing with and even who is in goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Money Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Anybody notice that Bieksa left the majority of the puckmoving to Alberts in the 3rd period? And every time, it ended up as a neutral zone turnover/giveaway. Wonder if he has lost some confidence with all the bashing going on. Which would be a shame, considering he is a far better puckmover than AA. If he's going to continue being paired with Alberts, he'll need to do more of the distribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmployeeoftheMonth Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 He had a stellar defensive game tonight with almost zero errors. However, you've also got to acknowledge that the NJD are the worst team in the league right now. They have zero offense, are missing 5 defencemen and their best player wasn't even playing due to injury (yes, Parise is a better all around player than Ilya "Goal Suck" Kovalchuk). Let's put it into perspective... OH ok well others have been saying that he is statistically one of the worst d men in the league however I guess you have to put into perspective then that he usually plays against the top players in the league. Oh no no no no no we can't do that though. It would be silly to look at the situation as well as the stats. Hockey is a business and stats are all that matter. Black and white black and white like an autistic brain. In short...yes you do have to aknowledge that, and I'll remind some of you'ze guys of that in the future I'm sure. and yes as far as team play right now Parise > Kovalchuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millerdraft Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Sorry for the late response, but I just checked on NHL.com and there were close to 150 D-men in the 08-09 season who played at least 60 games averaging well over 15 min a game. Sorry but IMO, I don't think the stats you are using for/against Bieksa are accurate enough for this discussion. The use of stats to refute a player's value is really starting to get to me. For example, tonite Ballard clearly blocked about 6 shots but was awarded only 1 blocked shot for the night. If that is the case for every player for blocked shots, what about giveaways, takeaways, hits etc. I think sticking to the pts and pims are about the only way to gauge a player's effectiveness or ineffectiveness. In Bieksa's case, he has a lot of work cut out for him (as far as stats are concerned). Good defensive game tonite tho, keep it up Juice! Even strength icetime? 2008/2009 70gp multiplied by 15mins equals 1050mins of EV icetime. http://www.nhl.com/ice/app?service=page&page=playerstats&fetchKey=20092ALLDADAll&viewName=timeOnIce&sort=evenStrengthTimeOnIce&pg=4 Upon a quick glance #117, Carlo Colaiacovo, had 1050mins of EV TOI but he played 73 games and therefore only managed to average 14:23 EV TOI which was below the cutoff. There are fourteen defencemen on that list that didn't make the 70gp minimum and 10 more that played more than 70gp but didn't average 15mins of EV TOI, which means there was 93 NHL defencemen who averaged over 15mins of EV TOI and a minimum 70gp. There are 84 names on this list: http://behindthenet.ca/2008/new_5_on_5.php?sort=7§ion=goals&mingp=70&mintoi=15&team=&pos=D So you appear to be correct that there is a discrepancy, which is a big problem but 9 omitted is still not close to the 60+ you suggested were omitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millerdraft Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 OH ok well others have been saying that he is statistically one of the worst d men in the league however I guess you have to put into perspective then that he usually plays against the top players in the league. Oh no no no no no we can't do that though. It would be silly to look at the situation as well as the stats. Hockey is a business and stats are all that matter. Black and white black and white like an autistic brain. In short...yes you do have to aknowledge that, and I'll remind some of you'ze guys of that in the future I'm sure. and yes as far as team play right now Parise > Kovalchuk EOTM, his shift charts were not bearing out the "fact" he was facing top end players "most of the time" in 08/09. Salo & Mitchell were both ahead of him: http://behindthenet.ca/2008/new_5_on_5.php?sort=8§ion=goals&mingp=50&mintoi=12&team=VAN&pos=D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 OH ok well others have been saying that he is statistically one of the worst d men in the league however I guess you have to put into perspective then that he usually plays against the top players in the league. Oh no no no no no we can't do that though. It would be silly to look at the situation as well as the stats. Hockey is a business and stats are all that matter. Black and white black and white like an autistic brain. In short...yes you do have to aknowledge that, and I'll remind some of you'ze guys of that in the future I'm sure. and yes as far as team play right now Parise > Kovalchuk Black then white are all i see in my infancy. red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me. lets me see. Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind. Wear your grudge like a crown of negativity. Calculate what we will or will not tolerate. Desperate to control all and everything. Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen. Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down. Justify denials and grip it to the lonesome end. Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down. Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Do you just not get it or are you playing stupid here? Does the skill level of your D partner effect how you play your game? Does how well you know you're partners tendencies effect how you play your game? For example, last season would Bieksa be more comfortable jumping in the play with Mitchell backing him up than say Rome? How about playing alongside Alberts last season? You wouldn't maybe be a tad more conservative playing alongside the Alberts that arrived here than you would be playing with Mitchell as your partner? You can bury your head and call it excuses but I'll stick with my opinion. Who you're paired with, and how well you know him, has an effect on how you play. Just as you're more likely to take a risk down a goal with 5 minutes left than you would if up a goal with five minutes left. Circumstances have an effect on you're decision making. That includes who you're playing with and even who is in goal. Here is a novel idea........why not blame the deficiencies in his game on him rather than on everyone else, or on what partner he doesnt have anymore? He is a professional and has had a long time now to adjust. I stand by MY opinion that if he cannot adjust that is pretty sad. Do YOU not get it? Is Bieksa not actually responsible for his own game and his own improvement as time goes on? Who he plays with is certainly a factor (as I stated originally that you seem to be ignoring), but it is not the only or even most important factor. The responsibility to improve and play the type of game that helps the team ultimately rests with Bieksa himself, as it would with any player. Alberts, Rome, and anyone else he has played with are not exactly terrible defensively (they are certainly better defensively than Bieksa is). Also, they are NHL dmen after all, so they must be doing something right. They are no Mitchell, but if Bieksa cant play decently unless he has an all star partner to cover for him, then what exactly is his value? He then only cripples the flexibility of the team by not being able to be paired with anyone other than the star defensive guy. All dmen have to play with different partners at times for a variety of reasons. Making excuses doesnt change that. Of course, you have the right to your opinion though. As to you saying that playing with Alberts, etc. makes Bieksa have to be more conservative, you are actually underlining the problem with Bieksa. He doesnt adjust his game at all based on the circumstances. Up by one goal, down by one goal, with a great defensive partner or a lower level one, he just continues to play the same high risk game. That is poor hockey IQ, pure and simple. It is funny how Hamhuis and Ballard (and Ehrhoff last year) have all had to adjust to new partners and it hasnt affected their game in a negative way much at all. It is simply a part of the game and the good dmen can adjust to it as such. It is just another excuse putting the blame on something other than Bieksa himself. I can agree to disagree with you here. I just think blaming who his partner is comes off as an excuse and enabling type behavior that people who support a player often do to minimize the responsibility of that player for his own fate. EDIT: And, just for the record, I give Bieksa more credit than you do. I think he is a decent dman in his own right and that his value is not solely determined by who he plays with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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