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Kevin Bieksa you are really...


Zigmund.Palffy

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Black then white are all i see in my infancy.

red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.

lets me see.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.

Wear your grudge like a crown of negativity.

Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.

Desperate to control all and everything.

Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.

Justify denials and grip it to the lonesome end.

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.

Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell

;)

Is this a Tool thread now?

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Here is a novel idea........why not blame the deficiencies in his game on him rather than on everyone else, or on what partner he doesnt have anymore? He is a professional and has had a long time now to adjust. I stand by MY opinion that if he cannot adjust that is pretty sad. Do YOU not get it? Is Bieksa not actually responsible for his own game and his own improvement as time goes on? Who he plays with is certainly a factor (as I stated originally that you seem to be ignoring), but it is not the only or even most important factor. The responsibility to improve and play the type of game that helps the team ultimately rests with Bieksa himself, as it would with any player.

Alberts, Rome, and anyone else he has played with are not exactly terrible defensively (they are certainly better defensively than Bieksa is). Also, they are NHL dmen after all, so they must be doing something right. They are no Mitchell, but if Bieksa cant play decently unless he has an all star partner to cover for him, then what exactly is his value? He then only cripples the flexibility of the team by not being able to be paired with anyone other than the star defensive guy. All dmen have to play with different partners at times for a variety of reasons.

Making excuses doesnt change that. Of course, you have the right to your opinion though. As to you saying that playing with Alberts, etc. makes Bieksa have to be more conservative, you are actually underlining the problem with Bieksa. He doesnt adjust his game at all based on the circumstances. Up by one goal, down by one goal, with a great defensive partner or a lower level one, he just continues to play the same high risk game. That is poor hockey IQ, pure and simple.

It is funny how Hamhuis and Ballard (and Ehrhoff last year) have all had to adjust to new partners and it hasnt affected their game in a negative way much at all. It is simply a part of the game and the good dmen can adjust to it as such. It is just another excuse putting the blame on something other than Bieksa himself.

I can agree to disagree with you here. I just think blaming who his partner is comes off as an excuse and enabling type behavior that people who support a player often do to minimize the responsibility of that player for his own fate.

EDIT: And, just for the record, I give Bieksa more credit than you do. I think he is a decent dman in his own right and that his value is not solely determined by who he plays with.

For the sake of accuracy...Willie Mitchell was never an NHL all-star. Number 1 in our hearts perhaps, and recipient of the Babe Pratt award twice, yes...but never an all star defenceman. He wasn't a highly skilled defenceman either. He was a good shutdown, stay at home, defensive defenceman, who allowed KB to join rushes and pay more mind to offensive contributions with the forwards.

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<br /><b>Even strength</b> icetime?<br /><br />2008/2009 70gp multiplied by 15mins equals 1050mins of EV icetime.  <br /><br /><a href='http://www.nhl.com/ice/app?service=page&amp;page=playerstats&amp;fetchKey=20092ALLDADAll&amp;viewName=timeOnIce&amp;sort=evenStrengthTimeOnIce&amp;pg=4' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.nhl.com/i...hTimeOnIce&amp;pg=4</a><br /><br />Upon a quick glance #117, Carlo Colaiacovo, had 1050mins of EV TOI but he played 73 games and therefore only managed to average 14:23 EV TOI which was below the cutoff.  There are fourteen defencemen on that list that didn't make the 70gp minimum and 10 more that played more than 70gp but didn't average 15mins of EV TOI, which means there was 93 NHL defencemen who averaged over 15mins of EV TOI <i>and</i> a minimum 70gp.<br /><br />There are 84 names on this list:<br /><a href='http://behindthenet.ca/2008/new_5_on_5.php?sort=7&amp;section=goals&amp;mingp=70&amp;mintoi=15&amp;team=&amp;pos=D' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://behindthenet....=15&amp;team=&amp;pos=D</a><br /><br />So you appear to be correct that there is a discrepancy, which is a big problem but 9 omitted is still not close to the 60+ you suggested were omitted.<br />

I see a problem here,

Salo 08-09 60 gp, 14:09 ESmin/gp, 20:10 min/gp

If your criteria are excluding a quality Dman like Salo, who else is it excluding?

It is very easy to make a window of scrutiny that makes a guy look better or worse than he is.

Stats without situational support are just numbers. How many ES minutes per game vs 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th lines. How many goals by these 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th line. What forward line was on the ice with the Dman in question when said 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th line scored. How many of the shots on goal were quality scoring chances or were the shots kept to the outside etc...

Any +/- stat with out this kind of information can be very miss leading. Furthermore +/- stats are often a bad way to look at players.

Example: Ehrhoff +5 against Minny while not contributing in anyway that I saw to a Canuck goal

I personally look at GF and GA separately and in terms of minutes on the ice. Furthermore, I take a Dmen's ESGF stat with a grain of salt specifically for the above example. I like to divide ESP/ESGF to see how often the Dman personally contributed to a goal to get an idea of how they affect the players around then offensively and correlate this with that players ESP/ESmin to judge this players offensive ability. I just wish I could get hold of minutes played and GF/GA data in terms of oppositions/Canuck forward lines. Then a better analysis could be done.

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MD my point hs never been that he's the bestest.

Yeah but to denigrate an opinion as if it's completely out of context because it's backed up with stats is off base, don't you agree?

I'm not suggesting defensive stats are the be all end all, Bill James does a fine job of explaining how difficult (if not impossible) defense is to rate, but when you're trying to explain that Bieksa has major deficiencies in the defensive zone, stats are the only (somewhat) tangible of just how good or bad a player is that can be objectively discussed.

At least there's a discussion over the validity or quality of stats, otherwise it's just "he suxors & he's the bestest eva"...

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For the sake of accuracy...Willie Mitchell was never an NHL all-star. Number 1 in our hearts perhaps, and recipient of the Babe Pratt award twice, yes...but never an all star defenceman. He wasn't a highly skilled defenceman either. He was a good shutdown, stay at home, defensive defenceman, who allowed KB to join rushes and pay more mind to offensive contributions with the forwards.

So, the rest of my post and my points are moot because of my choice of words in calling Mitchell an all star guy instead of a shutdown D? Yes, run with that please. Responding to my actual point would have been nice, but whatever.

As I said, who someone plays with on D certainly has an impact, but it is not an all-in excuse. They are still responsible for their own game and adjusting to whatever the situation is. Blaming a lack of talent in their partner is an excuse and a deflection, nothing more.

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I see a problem here,

Salo 08-09 60 gp, 14:09 ESmin/gp, 20:10 min/gp

If your criteria are excluding a quality Dman like Salo, who else is it excluding?

It is very easy to make a window of scrutiny that makes a guy look better or worse than he is.

Stats without situational support are just numbers. How many ES minutes per game vs 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th lines. How many goals by these 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th line. What forward line was on the ice with the Dman in question when said 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th line scored. How many of the shots on goal were quality scoring chances or were the shots kept to the outside etc...

Any +/- stat with out this kind of information can be very miss leading. Furthermore +/- stats are often a bad way to look at players.

Example: Ehrhoff +5 against Minny while not contributing in anyway that I saw to a Canuck goal

I personally look at GF and GA separately and in terms of minutes on the ice. Furthermore, I take a Dmen's ESGF stat with a grain of salt specifically for the above example. I like to divide ESP/ESGF to see how often the Dman personally contributed to a goal to get an idea of how they affect the players around then offensively and correlate this with that players ESP/ESmin to judge this players offensive ability. I just wish I could get hold of minutes played and GF/GA data in terms of oppositions/Canuck forward lines. Then a better analysis could be done.

Finally, someone who wants to improve statistics to get a better guage. In terms of what type of minutes was Bieksa playing, hard or soft mins, that's what QualComp is for.

Instead of throwing the baby out w/... blah blah blah, trying to improve the analysis is the way to go.

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Yeah but to denigrate an opinion as if it's completely out of context because it's backed up with stats is off base, don't you agree?

I'm not suggesting defensive stats are the be all end all, Bill James does a fine job of explaining how difficult (if not impossible) defense is to rate, but when you're trying to explain that Bieksa has major deficiencies in the defensive zone, stats are the only (somewhat) tangible of just how good or bad a player is that can be objectively discussed.

At least there's a discussion over the validity or quality of stats, otherwise it's just "he suxors & he's the bestest eva"...

No I don't agree. To denigrate an opinion that is based only on stats and turns a blind eye to everything else is right on base.

This is the problem with Corsi, people think that with it they don't have to use their brains anymore. That's part of what makes Corsi such a terrible thing to use. Nobody knows how to read anymore Miller, they just know how to parrot. Think about the children. These stat breakdowns need tweaking, and the more basic stats are so interpretive. I love stats but I hate that people don't want to go any further than basic stats.

You said it yourself when you downgraded his performance last night (and I didn't disagree with you on it) that you have to consider the situation. He looked fantastic last night, in fact imo he looked like the best d man out there overall but as you said...it's New Jersey.

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Alberts, Rome, and anyone else he has played with are not exactly terrible defensively (they are certainly better defensively than Bieksa is). Also, they are NHL dmen after all, so they must be doing something right. They are no Mitchell, but if Bieksa cant play decently unless he has an all star partner to cover for him, then what exactly is his value? He then only cripples the flexibility of the team by not being able to be paired with anyone other than the star defensive guy. All dmen have to play with different partners at times for a variety of reasons.

Making excuses doesnt change that. Of course, you have the right to your opinion though. As to you saying that playing with Alberts, etc. makes Bieksa have to be more conservative, you are actually underlining the problem with Bieksa. He doesnt adjust his game at all based on the circumstances. Up by one goal, down by one goal, with a great defensive partner or a lower level one, he just continues to play the same high risk game. That is poor hockey IQ, pure and simple.

I can agree to disagree with you here. I just think blaming who his partner is comes off as an excuse and enabling type behavior that people who support a player often do to minimize the responsibility of that player for his own fate.

EDIT: And, just for the record, I give Bieksa more credit than you do. I think he is a decent dman in his own right and that his value is not solely determined by who he plays with.

Alright genius, if Bieksa is as bad defensively as you describe how come he was the dman on the ice for the majority of Kovalchuk's shifts last night?? And he did a great job shutting him down and stopping him at the blueline. Say what you want about how the Devils and Kovalchuk are playing but he is still a superstar and top 5 best 1 on 1 players in the league and he was invisible last night thanks to some good defensive plays by Bieksa.

Bieksa had a good game last night as well as the rest of the team. Get over it and watch the game, you might learn something.

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This opinion I have on Bieksa is no such thing. Stats are only backing up what I've been seeing...

I never said it was.

That black and white black and white thing in my earlier post was directed at those saying Bieksa was oe of the worse d men in the league...because stats told em so.

I have full confidence that you understand stats are not only not the en all and be all but also aren't perfect. Even glorified stats that get more in depth still have problems if all you wanna do is look at a stat sheet and not watch a game.

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Alright genius, if Bieksa is as bad defensively as you describe how come he was the dman on the ice for the majority of Kovalchuk's shifts last night?? And he did a great job shutting him down and stopping him at the blueline. Say what you want about how the Devils and Kovalchuk are playing but he is still a superstar and top 5 best 1 on 1 players in the league and he was invisible last night thanks to some good defensive plays by Bieksa.

Bieksa had a good game last night as well as the rest of the team. Get over it and watch the game, you might learn something.

When did I say Bieksa was terrible last night?

I thought he played a good game and that he kept it simple.

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Finally, someone who wants to improve statistics to get a better guage. In terms of what type of minutes was Bieksa playing, hard or soft mins, that's what QualComp is for.

Instead of throwing the baby out w/... blah blah blah, trying to improve the analysis is the way to go.

psssst here's a secret: it won't happen unless you can objectively define the quality of plays. In hockey that's going to be next to impossible due to the nature of the game.

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When did I say Bieksa was terrible last night?

I thought he played a good game and that he kept it simple.

You said he was terrible defensively and I argued if he is that bad defensively then why did he play against Kovalchuk all night, one of the leagues best 1 on 1, and Bieksa did a great job.

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OH ok well others have been saying that he is statistically one of the worst d men in the league however I guess you have to put into perspective then that he usually plays against the top players in the league.

Oh no no no no no we can't do that though. It would be silly to look at the situation as well as the stats. Hockey is a business and stats are all that matter. Black and white black and white like an autistic brain.

In short...yes you do have to aknowledge that, and I'll remind some of you'ze guys of that in the future I'm sure. ;)

and yes as far as team play right now Parise > Kovalchuk

What? Bieksa doesn't usually plays against the top players in the league!

Even with the currently depleted Canuck D, he is not in the top pairing. The fact is he may have played a few games as a top pairing guy, but never on a regular basis because he is a small inept defender, with a career minus 19.

Salo is a career +/- plus 110, or Mitchell is a career plus 88, Those two guys have been the Nuck's who have played against the top players in the league, not sad sack #3.

BTW , BXa has now gone 10 games without a point, so he obviously is no offensive juggernaut either.

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