Kevin Bieksa you are really...

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

The same posters who question me as a Canuck fan for pointing out Bieksas flaws come to this thread and point out the flaws in other nuck d-men to prove their point...

There's a difference between pointing out flaws to talk &*$^ about a player and pointing out flaws to show people like you that everything you say can be applied to other players.

Huge world of difference in making a comparison and acting like a 9 year old girl with a skinned knee.

[wallstreetamigo]

The same posters who question me as a Canuck fan for pointing out Bieksas flaws come to this thread and point out the flaws in other nuck d-men to prove their point...

This is actually somewhat true unfortunately.

Taking shots at Salo regarding his durability is pretty hollow when Bieksa has missed just as much time the last few years. Injuries are injuries and time missed cannot be used as a negative against one player without being used as a negative against the other player.

Both have been pretty injury prone the last few years and there are no guarantees with any hockey player.

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

This is actually somewhat true unfortunately.

Taking shots at Salo regarding his durability is pretty hollow when Bieksa has missed just as much time the last few years. Injuries are injuries and time missed cannot be used as a negative against one player without being used as a negative against the other player.

Both have been pretty injury prone the last few years and there are no guarantees with any hockey player.

Ok to actually think that Salo is not injury prone and especially more injury prone than Bieksa is just blind ignorance. Don't get me wrong I'll take a Salo over a Bieksa if I had to choose but that doesn't change reality.

The situation is just as important as the statistics.

[wallstreetamigo]

I dont think it is unfair to say the following:

1. Salo has always managed to come back relatively quickly from injuries in the past. This is a more serious injury though, but history is on his side to some degree. It usually doesnt take him long to get his game back when he is healthy.

2. Salo is steady at both ends of the ice, calm, and brings a confidence and calmness to the team when he plays. He has been that way since the day he came to Vancouver. Consistently.

3. Bieka is starting to look like he is taking to heart the fact that he has to improve defensively, but he has only really looked good for the last few games. Hardly enough proof to put him in the same league as Salo when it comes to being a defensive benefit to the team.

This is not hating, it is the truth. Salo has been out for awhile and some people who are Bieksa supporters seem to have forgotten just how important Salo has been to this team, even with his various injuries over the years.

Look at the record with Salo in and out of the lineup over the years compared to Bieksa in and out of the lineup. It should count for something guys.

[wallstreetamigo]

Ok to actually think that Salo is not injury prone and especially more injury prone than Bieksa is just blind ignorance. Don't get me wrong I'll take a Salo over a Bieksa if I had to choose but that doesn't change reality.

The situation is just as important as the statistics.

Read my post above.

I also never said he wasnt injury prone. Many of his injuries have been very short term ones though, so the number of injuries looks worse than it actually is. With Bieksa, does the fact that his injuries kept him out much longer mean they are less significant or that he is less injury prone? Considering he has a tendency to get hit with very serious injuries as opposed to one or two game injuries, maybe he is actually a worse kind of injury prone than Salo is.

Even with the injuries, Salo has been a very valuable dman to this team and is better than Bieksa.

[Darcy Rota]

I doubt Salo will be able to come back and play any decent hockey this year.

He should stay out all season and give the canucks some cap relief. Sign somewhere else in the off season.

The Canucks do not need a rehabilitating Salo limping around for the rest of the year.

[لني]

Read my post above.

I also never said he wasnt injury prone. Many of his injuries have been very short term ones though, so the number of injuries looks worse than it actually is. With Bieksa, does the fact that his injuries kept him out much longer mean they are less significant or that he is less injury prone? Considering he has a tendency to get hit with very serious injuries as opposed to one or two game injuries, maybe he is actually a worse kind of injury prone than Salo is.

Even with the injuries, Salo has been a very valuable dman to this team and is better than Bieksa.

MG will obviously make that call whether KB or SS is more valuable to the team.

And no the injuries KB suffered vs Salo are not the same.

Salo has shown consistently he is prone to wear an tear injuries. KB has shown consistently he is prone to skate cuts to his legs.

Skate cuts are much more rare than wear and tear injures and the prevention (kevlar socks) are more effective.

[BedBeats™2.0]

EOM mentioned either here...or in a different thread that we shouldnt expect Salo to be totally game ready when he returns.

I think he might be right this time around.

His brave, but ill-advised return in the playoffs perhaps is a marker that age has finally caught up with him.

In the past ...when he has returned from injury, its like he never missed a game, totally game ready, it was kinda freaky.

[wallstreetamigo]

MG will obviously make that call whether KB or SS is more valuable to the team.

And no the injuries KB suffered vs Salo are not the same.

Salo has shown consistently he is prone to wear an tear injuries. KB has shown consistently he is prone to skate cuts to his legs.

Skate cuts are much more rare than wear and tear injures and the prevention (kevlar socks) are more effective.

I didnt say the injuries were the same thing. I said the ultimate result was the same thing - that is, both have missed significant time the last few years. Am I wrong?

Durable is not an accurate way to describe Bieksa, imo. He has missed far too many games to injury to be considered such.

And yes, MG will make the decision when the time comes. I wasnt saying he wouldnt. There are a few different scenarios that could play out. That has little bearing though. Sometimes the best player isn't the one who stays because other factors will play into that decision. But as a dman, Salo beats Bieksa hands down, imo.

[لني]

I didnt say the injuries were the same thing. I said the ultimate result was the same thing - that is, both have missed significant time the last few years. Am I wrong?

Durable is not an accurate way to describe Bieksa, imo. He has missed far too many games to injury to be considered such.

And yes, MG will make the decision when the time comes. I wasnt saying he wouldnt. There are a few different scenarios that could play out. That has little bearing though. Sometimes the best player isn't the one who stays because other factors will play into that decision. But as a dman, Salo beats Bieksa hands down, imo.

You are correct about the results and missed time.

You are incorrect however about the durability aspect.

[wallstreetamigo]

EOM mentioned either here...or in a different thread that we shouldnt expect Salo to be totally game ready when he returns.

I think he might be right this time around.

His brave, but ill-advised return in the playoffs perhaps is a marker that age has finally caught up with him.

In the past ...when he has returned from injury, its like he never missed a game, totally game ready, it was kinda freaky.

With all due respect, I dont think the situations can be compared. In the playoffs he returned the next game while still being injured. I dont care how tough anyone thinks Bieksa or anyone else is, I highly doubt ANY of the other D on our team or many other teams would have been able to do that and even play at 50% as Salo did. He didnt look great that last game, but he wasnt horrible either.....a testament to his toughness for sure.

With this and his other injuries, he has had time to recover before returning to action. And yes, he has stepped in and doesnt seem to miss a beat (and it is freaky...lol). But that is when he has had recovery time too, so the situations are a bit different.

This is a more serious injury and it is possible he cant come back right away and be right back like he was never gone, but I dont think the example of the playoffs is a fair comparison or reasoning to say age has caught up with him.

The argument is valid though. He may very well not be able to come back in game form. I learned a long time ago not to bet against Salo though.......

[wallstreetamigo]

You are correct about the results and missed time.

You are incorrect however about the durability aspect.

Am I?

Wouldn't the definition of durable actually apply to Salo in some respects?

In the league since 1998-99, and has managed to come back many times from injuries, still playing at the age of 35 (he is 36 now but hasnt played yet at 36 y/o).

du·ra·ble

adj.

1. Capable of withstanding wear and tear or decay. (Okay, maybe not so much, but playing at age 35 still shows some durability, doesn't it?)

2. Able to perform or compete over a long period, as by avoiding or overcoming injuries. (wouldn't this be fair to say about Salo though?)

Bieksa 73% of games in 4 full seasons.

Salo 73% of games played in 11 full seasons.

No real difference other than one has played a lot longer than the other and always managed to come back in game form from injuries.

So, according to the definition of durable, I suppose a case could be made for Salo actually being pretty durable......

I have tons of respect for a guy who will keep coming back after that much adversity and never let it affect his game or his attitiude.

[Sharpshooter]

I didnt say the injuries were the same thing. I said the ultimate result was the same thing - that is, both have missed significant time the last few years. Am I wrong?

Durable is not an accurate way to describe Bieksa, imo. He has missed far too many games to injury to be considered such.

And yes, MG will make the decision when the time comes. I wasnt saying he wouldnt. There are a few different scenarios that could play out. That has little bearing though. Sometimes the best player isn't the one who stays because other factors will play into that decision. But as a dman, Salo beats Bieksa hands down, imo.

The injuries aren't the same, so you are correct there. But the point is that the ends don't justify the means. And that's what some here including my self are saying. You're falsely equivocating the minor injuries over the years for Salo to Bieksa two major injuries from a cut from a skate. One is wear and tear...or perhaps over doing it or, whatever....let's just say illnesses, sprains strains, and whatever else he's gone through...lol..minus the snake bit and the ball buster. The other is an unavoidable injury from an outside party. Those injuries have nothing to do with being less durable. If he didn't get cut twice an miss almost an enite season in the last 4 from it...we could say from common injuries he was more durable than Salo....but as you pointed out there is a an age difference that comes into play.

The fact that Bieksa has missed less games tha Salo due to the similar injuries suffered by Salo...does inded, imo, make Bieksa more durable...as of today. And today is what MG will be deciding with, for the future.

And as a dman..I'd take Salo everytime over Juice....except this time. This will most likely be Salo's swan song...but Juice has 3-5 good prime years left with this team if he accepts a lower contract. I see Bieksa as the more pragmatic choice here.

[wallstreetamigo]

The injuries aren't the same, so you are correct there. But the point is that the ends don't justify the means. And that's what some here including my self are saying. You're falsely equivocating the minor injuries over the years for Salo to Bieksa two major injuries from a cut from a skate. One is wear and tear...or perhaps over doing it or, whatever....let's just say illnesses, sprains strains, and whatever else he's gone through...lol..minus the snake bit and the ball buster. The other is an unavoidable injury from an outside party. Those injuries have nothing to do with being less durable. If he didn't get cut twice an miss almost an enite season in the last 4 from it...we could say from common injuries he was more durable than Salo....but as you pointed out there is a an age difference that comes into play.

The fact that Bieksa has missed less games tha Salo due to the similar injuries suffered by Salo...does inded, imo, make Bieksa more durable...as of today. And today is what MG will be deciding with, for the future.

And as a dman..I'd take Salo everytime over Juice....except this time. This will most likely be Salo's swan song...but Juice has 3-5 good prime years left with this team if he accepts a lower contract. I see Bieksa as the more pragmatic choice here.

Do you really believe a 29 year old dman heading into UFA status is going to take a significant discount to come back here? With the way the financial landscape of the NHL is going, this might be his last decent contract. He will be advised to make the most of it.

I don't care how loyal or whatever you think he is, money talks and Bieksa is as good as gone, imo. And for the record, I wouldn't blame him or think less of him for that, not even a little bit.

How many good mid-tier players are sitting on the sidelines, playing in Europe/KHL, or accepting contracts for peanuts to stay in the NHL? The landscape has changed and if Bieksa has a good season, he should get a reasonably good offer or two, imo.

Expecting him to stay here for less money and likely a lesser role might be actually underrating his actual worth Sharpshooter, not something I have ever known you to do. In reality, how long will Ballard be a 3rd pairing guy making 4.2 million per year long term? I don't think that situation will last very long at all. The changes will come in the offseason and while I could see a lowball offer from MG for Bieksa, I think a Willie Mitchell scenario is far more likely here.

If Salo is healthy and wants to play, I could see a one year deal to be a 3rd pairing guy for Salo before I could see Bieksa taking that.

I know most Bieksa supporters believe he will stay and be top 4 ahead of Ballard, Ehrhoff, Edler, or Hamhuis, but I really don't think that is very likely longer-term. He is as old or older than all of them, has close to or less experience than all of them, and is, quite frankly, not as good all around as any of the other guys are (current couple of games notwithstanding). The direction for the top 4 seems to have been set by MG this past offseason, and I don't think it includes Bieksa or Salo anymore.

If Ehrhoff doesn't sign, it would help Bieksa's cause I'm sure. But it certainly looks on the surface like he is still on the outside looking in as far as his future with the team.

[Sharpshooter]

Do you really believe a 29 year old dman heading into UFA status is going to take a significant discount to come back here? With the way the financial landscape of the NHL is going, this might be his last decent contract. He will be advised to make the most of it.

I don't care how loyal or whatever you think he is, money talks and Bieksa is as good as gone, imo. And for the record, I wouldn't blame him or think less of him for that, not even a little bit.

How many good mid-tier players are sitting on the sidelines, playing in Europe/KHL, or accepting contracts for peanuts to stay in the NHL? The landscape has changed and if Bieksa has a good season, he should get a reasonably good offer or two, imo.

Expecting him to stay here for less money and likely a lesser role might be actually underrating his actual worth Sharpshooter, not something I have ever known you to do. In reality, how long will Ballard be a 3rd pairing guy making 4.2 million per year long term? I don't think that situation will last very long at all. The changes will come in the offseason and while I could see a lowball offer from MG for Bieksa, I think a Willie Mitchell scenario is far more likely here.

If Salo is healthy and wants to play, I could see a one year deal to be a 3rd pairing guy for Salo before I could see Bieksa taking that.

I know most Bieksa supporters believe he will stay and be top 4 ahead of Ballard, Ehrhoff, Edler, or Hamhuis, but I really don't think that is very likely longer-term. He is as old or older than all of them, has close to or less experience than all of them, and is, quite frankly, not as good all around as any of the other guys are (current couple of games notwithstanding). The direction for the top 4 seems to have been set by MG this past offseason, and I don't think it includes Bieksa or Salo anymore.

If Ehrhoff doesn't sign, it would help Bieksa's cause I'm sure. But it certainly looks on the surface like he is still on the outside looking in as far as his future with the team.

He could very well take a discount. It;s not out of the realm of possibility. Perhaps less or an equal possibility that he does exactly what you suggest and he turns down a lower contract and signs what would most likely be his last large multi year contract. I get that too. And yes, of course his agent will advise him financially. Although, he might just tell his agent...see what kind of longer term deal you can get me at a lower hit to the team...even if I have outlier years that get bought out...there's still some maneouvering the MG can do with the contract length and amount to lower the average yearly salary. So, again it's not out of the realm of possibility.

I don't see Salo here after this season...we're just going to have to disagree on that one. A 36 year old returning veteran, who is slower, just from the age again and injury process is not a fit that I see MG making. I could be wrong of course...but I doubt it...and i'm rarely wrong.

I for one say that if Bieksa stays he'll transition down to #5 in the depth chart...i have no illusions that he will necessarily be a top 4 guy on this team after this season or the next. I mean, again, it's not out of the realm of possibility, that he indeed could be, based on fantastic play...but I'm basing it on probability. And Alberts and Bieksa next year with Rome in the wings is still a solid 3rd pairing for years to come. And mark my words, quote me and sig me....Ehrhoff will resign here...no doubt about it. The question is only about how much...not if.

Bieksa may stay...he may not...there are good reasons to argue both sides. I welcome the discussion.

[wallstreetamigo]

He could very well take a discount. It;s not out of the realm of possibility. Perhaps less or an equal possibility that he does exactly what you suggest and he turns down a lower contract and signs what would most likely be his last large multi year contract. I get that too. And yes, of course his agent will advise him financially. Although, he might just tell his agent...see what kind of longer term deal you can get me at a lower hit to the team...even if I have outlier years that get bought out...there's still some maneouvering the MG can do with the contract length and amount to lower the average yearly salary. So, again it's not out of the realm of possibility.

I don't see Salo here after this season...we're just going to have to disagree on that one. A 36 year old returning veteran, who is slower, just from the again and injury process is not a fit that I see MG making. I could be wrong of course...but I doubt it...and i'm rarely wrong.

I for one say that if Bieksa stays he'll transition down to #5 in the depth chart...i have no illusions that he will necessarily be a top 4 guy on this team after this season or the next. I mean, again, it's not out of the realm of possibility, that he indeed could be, based on fantastic play...but I'm basing it on probability. And Alberts and Bieksa next year with Rome in the wings is still a solid 3rd pairing for years to come. And mark my words, quote me and sig me....Ehrhoff will resign here...no doubt about it. The question is only about how much...not if.

Bieksa may stay...he may not...there are good reasons to argue both sides. I welcome the discussion.

Anything is possible of course. It is obvious from our posts that we both understand the difference between possibility and probability. There is a solid argument on either side, and that is even without other outside factors like say how much Ehrhoff signs for (3 times this week we have agreed...I know he will be re-signed too).

Actually, I have said for awhile that I don`t think Salo will be here next year either. My point there was if we were looking for someone to take a cheap contract and play 3rd pairing minutes, that is more like something a 36 year old would do than a 29 year old. I definitely don`t think it is a likely scenario though. So we actually agree on that one! (Wow, 4 times we have agreed in one week....... )

I haven't seen too many contracts handed out for longer terms with extra years to lower the cap hit for any players other than stars though, but it is not impossible I suppose.

At a manageable cap hit, Bieksa would be a good 3rd pairing guy. I agree there (that's 5 times now!!!!). I think the one danger is that AV might not be willing to slide him down the depth chart even if his play warrants it, and that could hurt the team. I have always said that at the right price and with proper use that plays to his strengths, Bieksa can be a good asset to the team. For too much money and overuse in areas where he is not as strong, he can be a liability. The gray area between the two is not as much as many think.

Good discussion about the possibilities for this season and beyond though. We are both being a little more civil to each other these days..... Not that we were over the top before, just a little snarky......

[Sharpshooter]

Anything is possible of course. It is obvious from our posts that we both understand the difference between possibility and probability. There is a solid argument on either side, and that is even without other outside factors like say how much Ehrhoff signs for (3 times this week we have agreed...I know he will be re-signed too).

Actually, I have said for awhile that I don`t think Salo will be here next year either. My point there was if we were looking for someone to take a cheap contract and play 3rd pairing minutes, that is more like something a 36 year old would do than a 29 year old. I definitely don`t think it is a likely scenario though. So we actually agree on that one! (Wow, 4 times we have agreed in one week....... )

I haven't seen too many contracts handed out for longer terms with extra years to lower the cap hit for any players other than stars though, but it is not impossible I suppose.

At a manageable cap hit, Bieksa would be a good 3rd pairing guy. I agree there (that's 5 times now!!!!). I think the one danger is that AV might not be willing to slide him down the depth chart even if his play warrants it, and that could hurt the team. I have always said that at the right price and with proper use that plays to his strengths, Bieksa can be a good asset to the team. For too much money and overuse in areas where he is not as strong, he can be a liability. The gray area between the two is not as much as many think.

Good discussion about the possibilities for this season and beyond though. We are both being a little more civil to each other these days..... Not that we were over the top before, just a little snarky......

5 times eh?

That's right WallstreetAmigo...you keep agreeing with me....you keep coming over to the darkside, slowly but surely we'll get ya.. Join me and EOTM, it's warm and cozy over here in the darkside. Together we'll be unstoppable!

Muwhahaha!

And yeah...it's getting late...and I seem to be getting a bit softer. Where's that damn crayon congeniality certificate gone? Anyways, what's a little snark every now and then? But yes...good discussions...good times, good times...now i'm off to recharge my rage, that has seemed to have noticeably left me. We can't have that now. can we?

[wallstreetamigo]

5 times eh?

That's right WallstreetAmigo...you keep agreeing with me....you keep coming over to the darkside, slowly but surely we'll get ya.. Join me and EOTM, it's warm and cozy over here in the darkside. Together we'll be unstoppable!

Muwhahaha!

And yeah...it's getting late...and I seem to be getting a bit softer. Where's that damn crayon congeniality certificate gone? Anyways, what's a little snark every now and then? But yes...good discussions...good times, good times...now i'm off to recharge my rage, that has seemed to have noticeably left me. We can't have that now. can we?

I'm just agreeing with you to lull you into a false sense of security.......Muwhahaha!!!! I'll have you hating Bieksa by Christmas.......

And yes, snark is good in moderation. At least we are not like some people on here though....holy crap....

Don't lose the rage.......I wouldn't have anyone to argue with and that would be no fun. I might have to break down and talk to the wife.......please man, show some mercy.

[Sharpshooter]

I'm just agreeing with you to lull you into a false sense of security.......Muwhahaha!!!! I'll have you hating Bieksa by Christmas.......

And yes, snark is good in moderation. At least we are not like some people on here though....holy crap....

Don't lose the rage.......I wouldn't have anyone to argue with and that would be no fun. I might have to break down and talk to the wife.......please man, show some mercy.

[vannuck1]

He could very well take a discount. It;s not out of the realm of possibility. Perhaps less or an equal possibility that he does exactly what you suggest and he turns down a lower contract and signs what would most likely be his last large multi year contract. I get that too. And yes, of course his agent will advise him financially. Although, he might just tell his agent...see what kind of longer term deal you can get me at a lower hit to the team...even if I have outlier years that get bought out...there's still some maneouvering the MG can do with the contract length and amount to lower the average yearly salary. So, again it's not out of the realm of possibility.

I don't see Salo here after this season...we're just going to have to disagree on that one. A 36 year old returning veteran, who is slower, just from the age again and injury process is not a fit that I see MG making. I could be wrong of course...but I doubt it...and i'm rarely wrong.

I for one say that if Bieksa stays he'll transition down to #5 in the depth chart...i have no illusions that he will necessarily be a top 4 guy on this team after this season or the next. I mean, again, it's not out of the realm of possibility, that he indeed could be, based on fantastic play...but I'm basing it on probability. And Alberts and Bieksa next year with Rome in the wings is still a solid 3rd pairing for years to come. And mark my words, quote me and sig me....Ehrhoff will resign here...no doubt about it. The question is only about how much...not if.

Bieksa may stay...he may not...there are good reasons to argue both sides. I welcome the discussion.

Bieksa hmmmm, where to start , he is inconsistent thinks he is Bobby Orr, hits like girl , cant pass, takes stupid penalties, cant read the play, The positives, supplies some offense and is good at getting coffee for AV.