Kevin Bieksa you are really...

[wallstreetamigo]

You make some very good points here. But here's some food for thought. Bieska was named an "A" for a reason. Obviously he's a good leader in the locker room and outside it. And as it's been pointed out so many times on this site, Hank was the one who named him an "A" so obviously he has the respect of the room and trading somebody with that respect can affect the chemistry on ice and off. That being said if Bieska were to be traded (depending on the time of year) the Nucks may in fact have a hard time in recovering from his absence. I for one have more confidence in Bieska then I do in Rome. He's better offensively and defensively then Rome. I think his experience will come into play in the playoffs and he'll be able to step up his game. As of this point in the year, imo he's worth keeping and I'm hopeful he'll continue getting better as the season moves on.

I never said he wasnt a good leader. But the fact that Henrik chose him is irrelevant because Henrik does not make personnel decisions for the team, MG does. Yes, trading any player can affect chemistry, but is that enough to not move Bieksa if the need arises to make the team better and/or fit under the salary cap? I would say no. He is not a core player or an untouchable in terms of being moved.

Bieksa is not better defensively than Rome. Offensively yes, but not defensively. The steady play of Rome, Alberts, and even Parent, combined with the offensive struggles Bieksa is having and the emergence of Edler and Ehrhoff on the offensive side may just be enough to make Bieksa expendable even before Salo comes back. I think all it will take is Ballard getting his chance to shine to complete that scenario. Maybe that is why AV is only giving Ballard 12 minutes per game, who knows.

Bieksa is a hot and cold player (and even more so in the playoffs) where he has almost single-handedly won us games with a great individual effort. Unfortunately, he has also almost single-handedly lost us games too with a terrible individual effort. Some say that is a positive, others say it is a negative. Both have an argument, but I say in the playoffs it is a negative for the simple fact that consistency, especially defensively, wins in the playoffs.

If you look at Bieksa objectively, most of the mistakes he makes are because he tries to do too much himself rather than trusting and relying on his teammates to do their jobs too. As an example, him jumping in to hit a guy when another player already has him hit or covered. That has happened a few times this season, leaving someone else open for a scoring chance or having Bieksa take a penalty on the play. Leaving his defense partner at the mercy of odd man rushes several times per game because of ill-advised pinches with an offense-only mentality. The list goes on. he gets himself out of position a lot of the time because he is too aggressive.

Bieksa may be a good leader in the locker room and outside of it, but he is still somewhat of an individual player rather than a team player in many respects on the ice. He is better this year for sure and appears to be buying into the team game a bit more, but that is still a frustration with him. He seems to put himself above the team system a lot of the time, choosing to play his high-risk style even if the in-game situation and circumstances dictate he should play a safer style at that time. Often, it ends up costing the team. At the very least, it puts more pressure on his teammates to cover for him.

None of this means he sucks or that I hate him. He has been the same way since he entered the league. He is what he is, but he is not untouchable on this team for any reason. That is just wishful thinking by his supporters.

[bbllpp]

<br />Ballard has been a HUGE part of the recent success of our PK.  He has 1 less block than Bieksa in FIVE less games..<br /><br />I haven't seen a single glaring error from Ballard.  A steady, consistent, and dependable defensemen.  All opposites to boo boo.<br />

Yes at 1:32 min of SH TOI per game Ballard is sooooooooooo important on the PK.

So after 13 games using the +/- stats and minutes played stats from nhl.com(and taking into account the SHG scored last game)

If each canuck D man played an entire 60 min game (average this year of 48.79 min ES, 5.37 min PP, 5.84 min SH)

Bieksa 3.70 GF, 2.50 GA (+1.20)

Ehrhoff 3.20 GF, 2.18 GA (+1.02)

Rome 2.43 GF, 1.79 GA (+0.64)

Edler 2.87 GF, 2.61 GA (+0.26)

Alberts 1.53 GF, 1.40 GA (+0.13)

Hamhuis 2.37 GF, 2.64 GA (-0.27)

Ballard 1.00 GF, 2.50 GA (-1.50)

Parent 0.00 GF, 2.66 GA (-2.66)

Take what you want from this

[wallstreetamigo]

Maybe you should look at the +/- before making stupid judgements.

With all due respect, if there is a more useless individual stat than +/- for determining how well or how poorly a player is playing (especially short-term), somebody please enlighten me as to what it is......

Comparing Ballards points, shots, or +/- without looking objectively at their ice time and the situations they are playing in (PK, PP, ES with the Seins, etc.) is just cherry picking an argument supporting your guy.

Ballard has been better defensively than Bieksa hands down, by doing the little things right consistently. Since he is obviously the biggest competitor to Bieksa and his importance to this team, I can understand Bieksa supporters slagging him. But does anyone really think he would have played worse than Bieksa if their ice times and situations were reversed?

He never has any other time in his career, so why would he start now?

[bbllpp]

<br />With all due respect, if there is a more useless individual stat than +/- for determining how well or how poorly a player is playing (especially short-term), somebody please enlighten me as to what it is......<br /><br />Comparing Ballards points, shots, or +/- without looking objectively at their ice time and the situations they are playing in (PK, PP, ES with the Seins, etc.) is just cherry picking an argument supporting your guy.<br /><br />Ballard has been better defensively than Bieksa hands down, by doing the little things right consistently. Since he is obviously the biggest competitor to Bieksa and his importance to this team, I can understand Bieksa supporters slagging him. But does anyone really think he would have played worse than Bieksa if their ice times and situations were reversed?<br /><br />He never has any other time in his career, so why would he start now?<br />

Ballard 1 GA per 19.54 min ES TOI playing sheltered minutes

Bieksa 1 GA per 25.19 min ES TOI playing against the other teams top lines

[wallstreetamigo]

Yes at 1:32 min of SH TOI per game Ballard is sooooooooooo important on the PK.

So after 13 games using the +/- stats and minutes played stats from nhl.com(and taking into account the SHG scored last game)

If each canuck D man played an entire 60 min game (average this year of 48.79 min ES, 5.37 min PP, 5.84 min SH)

Bieksa 3.70 GF, 2.50 GA (+1.20)

Ehrhoff 3.20 GF, 2.18 GA (+1.02)

Rome 2.43 GF, 1.79 GA (+0.64)

Edler 2.87 GF, 2.61 GA (+0.26)

Alberts 1.53 GF, 1.40 GA (+0.13)

Hamhuis 2.37 GF, 2.64 GA (-0.27)

Ballard 1.00 GF, 2.50 GA (-1.50)

Parent 0.00 GF, 2.66 GA (-2.66)

Take what you want from this

Ballard has been on the ice for some of our most important PK situations this season. He bailed out Bieksa for his overtime penalty, after all.

Your argument is all well and good here, but it does not factor in the quality of ice time, etc. so really is pretty useless.

3rd pairing guys playing with the 4th line or seeing the other teams top players a lot in matchups the other coach is trying to take advantage of are pretty much expected to have lower +/- numbers, my friend.

[wallstreetamigo]

Ballard 1 GA per 19.54 min ES TOI playing sheltered minutes

Bieksa 1 GA per 25.19 min ES TOI playing against the other teams top lines

Sheltered minutes? Do you even watch the games? Ballard is typically out against the other teams hardest forecheckers and a lot of the time the other team is trying to get its top players out against the 3rd pairing.

Bieksa has had Hamhuis as his partner and also Alberts. He also sees a lot of even strength time with the Sedins.

Stats are fin, but +/- relies on much more than just an individual players ability. That is why it is pretty useless as a gauge by itself.

[bbllpp]

&lt;br /&gt;Ballard has been on the ice for some of our most important PK situations this season. He bailed out Bieksa for his overtime penalty, after all.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Your argument is all well and good here, but it does not factor in the quality of ice time, etc. so really is pretty useless.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3rd pairing guys playing with the 4th line or seeing the other teams top players a lot in matchups the other coach is trying to take advantage of are pretty much expected to have lower +/- numbers, my friend.&lt;br /&gt;

2 of Ballards 5 ES GA have come from playing against the 4th line

[Peter Zezel]

<br /> He is what he is, but he is not untouchable on this team for any reason. That is just wishful thinking by his supporters.<br />

I agree with you and I'm not saying he is untouchable. But if he were to be traded I would want some type of fair compensation for him. And I believe he's a solid 5th defensemen on our team right now. So losing him and not gaining a player of equal value would be a loss. Picks wouldn't help this team out. And as of right now his salary doesn't allow for us to be compensated fairly. So let him continue to grow this season and see what happens. I have faith in MG that he will better our team. But Bieska deserves a spot over Rome. And Salo is a gamble. Hope he comes back healthy but with his history of injuries, how much stock can we put into him down the stretch?

[Sharpshooter]

With all due respect, if there is a more useless individual stat than +/- for determining how well or how poorly a player is playing (especially short-term), somebody please enlighten me as to what it is......

Comparing Ballards points, shots, or +/- without looking objectively at their ice time and the situations they are playing in (PK, PP, ES with the Seins, etc.) is just cherry picking an argument supporting your guy.

Ballard has been better defensively than Bieksa hands down, by doing the little things right consistently. Since he is obviously the biggest competitor to Bieksa and his importance to this team, I can understand Bieksa supporters slagging him. But does anyone really think he would have played worse than Bieksa if their ice times and situations were reversed?

He never has any other time in his career, so why would he start now?

Noone compared Bieksa's stats to Ballard's until it was brought up to support an asinine argument from another user. You're conflating the reasons as to why someone responded to a stats challenge with asserting a stats argument. You're missing the boat on this one bud.

Ballard has had his own share of brain farts in his 8 games as well....especially last game against Det. He has not been "hands down" better. He's been solid and capable and shown his defensive prowess....but he hasn't been less fallible than Juice. But...then again, no one on this team has been overly spectacular at being defencively "perfect". Every dman on this team has had his stinky shifts and games...of that there's no intelligent rebuttal or doubt. Bieksa has had, now after 13 games, more games where he was better than he was worse...and the direction is continuing to point towards "better" as evident from his last three games....the road trip will be another tool for us to assess him further and compare and contrast him with his fellow dmen.

I look forward to it.

And I don't think anyone slagged Ballard....that's a bit of an hyperbolic assessment on your part, in describing those who were defending Juicy Juice. Your impartiality and hyperbole is showing through your dress, brother.

[bbllpp]

<br />Sheltered minutes? Do you even watch the games? Ballard is typically out against the other teams hardest forecheckers and a lot of the time the other team is trying to get its top players out against the 3rd pairing.<br /><br />Bieksa has had Hamhuis as his partner and also Alberts. He also sees a lot of even strength time with the Sedins.<br /><br />Stats are fin, but +/- relies on much more than just an individual players ability. That is why it is pretty useless as a gauge by itself.<br />

So 2 of Ballards 12.32 min SH was killing a Bieksa penalty in OT. Bieksa has been out for 30.93 min of the 76.73 min SH TOI that the Canucks have played this year more than any other player on the team. Tell me he hasn't been out killing important PK.

[wallstreetamigo]

I agree with you and I'm not saying he is untouchable. But if he were to be traded I would want some type of fair compensation for him. And I believe he's a solid 5th defensemen on our team right now. So losing him and not gaining a player of equal value would be a loss. Picks wouldn't help this team out. And as of right now his salary doesn't allow for us to be compensated fairly. So let him continue to grow this season and see what happens. I have faith in MG that he will better our team. But Bieska deserves a spot over Rome. And Salo is a gamble. Hope he comes back healthy but with his history of injuries, how much stock can we put into him down the stretch?

Honestly, I would never bet against Salo coming back and almost immediately making a positive impact. He has done it every time he comes back from injury.

Salo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bieksa.......there is not even a single argument that could reasonably be made to say otherwise. Even with the injury history.

I would be fine with Rome as the #6 guy actually. As long as he keeps his game simple, he is not noticeable, which is what you want.

[wallstreetamigo]

So 2 of Ballards 12.32 min SH was killing a Bieksa penalty in OT. Bieksa has been out for 30.93 min of the 76.73 min SH TOI that the Canucks have played this year more than any other player on the team. Tell me he hasn't been out killing important PK.

I never said he wasnt, but unlike you apparently, I recognize that both Bieksa AND Ballard can be important to our PK at the same time. It is not an either-or situation.

[wallstreetamigo]

Noone compared Bieksa's stats to Ballard's until it was brought up to support an asinine argument from another user. You're conflating the reasons as to why someone responded to a stats challenge with asserting a stats argument. You're missing the boat on this one bud.

Ballard has had his own share of brain farts in his 8 games as well....especially last game against Det. He has not been "hands down" better. He's been solid and capable and shown his defensive prowess....but he hasn't been less fallible than Juice. But...then again, no one on this team has been overly spectacular at being defencively "perfect". Every dman on this team has had his stinky shifts and games...of that there's no intelligent rebuttal or doubt. Bieksa has had, now after 13 games, more games where he was better than he was worse...and the direction is continuing to point towards "better" as evident from his last three games....the road trip will be another tool for us to assess him further and compare and contrast him with his fellow dmen.

I look forward to it.

And I don't think anyone slagged Ballard....that's a bit of an hyperbolic assessment on your part, in describing those who were defending Juicy Juice. Your impartiality and hyperbole is showing through your dress, brother.

I would say Ballard has also been better in more games than he he has been worse.

A direct, objective comparison between Ballard and Bieksa (stat-wise or otherwise) will not really be possible until AV decides to start giving Ballard a chance to show what he can do.

Comparing a guy who gets all the prime ice time to a guy who gets all the leftover shifts is really not fair. That was my point. The fact that at the very least Ballard has been as good as Bieksa defensively with the gross difference in the quality of ice time and situations actually speaks louder than anything.

[Sharpshooter]

I would say Ballard has also been better in more games than he he has been worse.

A direct, objective comparison between Ballard and Bieksa (stat-wise or otherwise) will not really be possible until AV decides to start giving Ballard a chance to show what he can do.

Comparing a guy who gets all the prime ice time to a guy who gets all the leftover shifts is really not fair. That was my point. The fact that at the very least Ballard has been as good as Bieksa defensively with the gross difference in the quality of ice time and situations actually speaks louder than anything.

And the counterpoint is that on this team...the best guys get the minutes.

If Ballard starts producing more offencively or starts being a better defensive viability(which he will be in no time, i'm sure) than he is now...then he'll earn more minutes. Right now, he isn't better than Bieksa...and his minutes or lack of them are warranted. AV's been pretty good in doling out minutes this year to his dmen, in an effort to manage them and give them opurtunities ...I don't think that will change...Ballard will have plenty of oppurtunities to earn his spot over Kevin.

We'll see what happens, but I'll enjoy the competition from them all.

[bbllpp]

<br />I never said he wasnt, but unlike you apparently, I recognize that both Bieksa AND Ballard can be important to our PK at the same time. It is not an either-or situation.<br />

Sorry if I miss understood but I got the impression that you were down playing Bieksa's PK contributions while over stating Ballard's. I am happy we have both right now. Bieksa is playing solid hockey right now and let's just be happy, as Canucks fans, that he is because it can only mean good things for the team.

[Peter Zezel]

<br />Honestly, I would never bet against Salo coming back and almost immediately making a positive impact. He has done it every time he comes back from injury.<br /><br />Salo &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Bieksa.......there is not even a single argument that could reasonably be made to say otherwise. Even with the injury history.<br /><br />I would be fine with Rome as the #6 guy actually. As long as he keeps his game simple, he is not noticeable, which is what you want.<br />

Salo when healthy is our top defencemen bar none. But he will get injured again this season thats almost a for sure. My hope is that he'll be there for playoffs. That being said can we afford to let Bieska go? If he keeps on improving he would be better 6th defencemen than Rome or Alberts. But time will tell and I'm open to losing players for the betterment of our team.

[Barry_Wilkins]

You're both being defensive. Bieksa should take lessons from the both of you.

Post of the day.

[wallstreetamigo]

And the counterpoint is that on this team...the best guys get the minutes.

If Ballard starts producing more offencively or starts being a better defensive viability(which he will be in no time, i'm sure) than he is now...then he'll earn more minutes. Right now, he isn't better than Bieksa...and his minutes or lack of them are warranted. AV's been pretty good in doling out minutes this year to his dmen, in an effort to manage them and give them opurtunities ...I don't think that will change...Ballard will have plenty of oppurtunities to earn his spot over Kevin.

We'll see what happens, but I'll enjoy the competition from them all.

As always, you keep ignoring my point that Bieksa was not asked to earn his playing time this season. He was handed that playing time right off the hop and did nothing to earn it in the preseason or early in the year.

AV has given Ballard zero opportunity to actually show his worth. At the same time, he handed that opportunity to Bieksa with no expectation that he actually earn it. That is fact. Your argument that ice time is only given to players who earn it is incorrect. I imagine if Ballard was given the opportunity early and Bieksa was not, you would be singing a different tune on this point.

[Clark Kent]

Ballard Salo

Hamhuis Bieksa

Ehrhoff Edler

That's one sexy top six going into the p-offs.

[Sharpshooter]

Post of the day.