Mike27 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 <br />I'm disagreeing with your assessment that +/- is a moreso a team stat. I'm saying there are factors outside of what the other 4 guys on the ice can influence.<br /><br />And no, my response was because I disagree (albeit not 100%) with your post. +/- is just as much individual as it is team because it can depend on who you're playing with just as much as who you're playing against. In Bieksa's case, for example, take the game in Washington, he kept Ovechkin off the scoresheet and still managed to chip in with an assist, and thus a +1. I would say that was an earned +.<br /><br /><br /><br /> Did he keep Ovechkin off the scoresheet by himself? Seems like it was more of a team effort than just Bieksa. That is why many people think of +/- as more of a team stat, or at least a hybrid team/individual stat. However, leading the team in +/- is certainly a noteworthy stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Out of curiosity what would be a complete individual stat for defense? There really isnt one unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whoopsy Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Just want to check with LePussy Do you apply the same standard you have on Bieksa to our other D? Say Ehrhoff's play tonight? Will you be as critical to Ehrhoff like you are with Bieksa? Ehrhoff tonight played just like the Bieksa you hated. Or are you still saying it's all Bieksa's fault tonight and nothing on Ehrhoff, even when Bieksa is sitting on the bench? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeafsBlowPouch Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Just want to check with LePussy Do you apply the same standard you have on Bieksa to our other D? Say Ehrhoff's play tonight? Will you be as critical to Ehrhoff like you are with Bieksa? Ehrhoff tonight played just like the Bieksa you hated. Or are you still saying it's all Bieksa's fault tonight and nothing on Ehrhoff, even when Bieksa is sitting on the bench? Exactly! And to add to the +/- debate: tonight Bieksa +1, Ehrhoff -2 and it indicated their defensive performances very well tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANUCKLELION Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 So now plus minus is more important? if you actually watched a Canucks game without only focussing on Bieksa you would notice ehrhoff is the biggest defensive liability on our blue line(other than Rome/Alberts) he is a turnover machine. Also your forgetting the part about ehrhoff played on the sharks while they were tearing up the regular seasons for a couple years, but in those four seasons he only managed a career high of +10. He was nicknamed by the fans "Error" there. It was only when he came here he had a huge season for his plus/minus going +36 (much like what Bieksa is doing this season) his overall plus/minus skyrocketed. 5 on 5 points Christian Ehrhoff 11 points and +12 Kevin Bieksa 15 points and +23 Since we are going off of +/- now according to you, and according to these stats, KB is the better defensive player and the one you would rather have on the ice in any 5 on 5 situation since he is more effective offensively and defensively. Now stop being a chickensh*t and respond to a post thats proving you wrong for once instead of just responding to ones that are arguable. chickensh*t ? lol, Can't you read? The post you are replying to states facts here it is again. Bxa still leads the team in giveaways. And even with his turnaround in the +/- stats, Bxa has an NHL career +/- of +3. lol. The younger, bigger, faster, more consistent Hoff has a career +/- of , are you sitting down? +67. He is +64 ahead of Bxa.lol BXa isn't even close to being as good as the Hoff either offensively or defensively. Plus did you see him scrap the other night? He's a wildman. Your nose must be growing after spewing out the absolute fiction that one year made Ehrhoff's lofty career to date +67 rating . There is absolutely no comparison to BXa's pathetic, paltry career to date +3. lol What makes the Nuck's so dangerous? Their deadly PP, thats what. Which D man makes the PP tick? Ehrhoff and his 32 points so far this year backs that up, vs Bxa's 18, btw, he got his first point in 11 games tonight. Nope try twisting the cold hard facts all you want, it doesn't change the fact Ehrhoff is a better Dman, both offensively and defensively than sad sack Bxa by a mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry_Wilkins Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Bxa's 18, btw, he got his first point in 11 games tonight. And that assist came on ANOTHER Bieksa shot which missed the net. He's just brutal at the point. Fizzlers, whifflers, off-target, and served-up cream puffs. Can't wait for Salo's return when we'll have a real point shot again to compliment Ehrhoff, especially with Edler out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marinated.pea Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The bolded part is exactly why it is not a very good individual indicator in isolation. You are also suggesting that Bieksa was solely and individually responsible for shutting down Ovechkin? I mean, no other players on the ice had anything to do with it at all? Unfortunately, hockey does not work that way. Also, there have been many games where Bieksa has been a plus player without recording a point or contributing significantly t a goal. So, how do you make the determination of when a player has earned a plus or they havent? Again, the reason it is largely a team stat. My point is that anyone who uses +/- on its own to either validate or dispute an individual players defensive ability is not being realistic. According to that logic, Mike Green was an excellent defensive player last year. Yeah I said that in a previous post. If someone were petty, they could sit down and sort out each play by each player and see which one is earned or not. But of course, no one has THAT much time on their hands, or at least, we hope not. I'm not trying to discredit any other player that helped shut down the Washington top line, but the fact that Bieksa was specifically assigned to him should not be left out either. Question: had Ovechkin scored on a pretty passing play of some sort, would not half of these boards, and half of the people in this thread for that matter, have jumped on Bieksa since Ovie was his check and not even mention the other 5 guys on the ice? We can't solely credit Bieksa on shutting Ovie down, but we can't say he didn't play a larger role than the others. That was his job that night - and he did it well. And their little wink exchange after the game agrees with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sameer666 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 chickensh*t ? lol, Can't you read? The post you are replying to states facts here it is again. Your nose must be growing after spewing out the absolute fiction that one year made Ehrhoff's lofty career to date +67 rating . There is absolutely no comparison to BXa's pathetic, paltry career to date +3. lol What makes the Nuck's so dangerous? Their deadly PP, thats what. Which D man makes the PP tick? Ehrhoff and his 32 points so far this year backs that up, vs Bxa's 18, btw, he got his first point in 11 games tonight. Nope try twisting the cold hard facts all you want, it doesn't change the fact Ehrhoff is a better Dman, both offensively and defensively than sad sack Bxa by a mile. You keep saying he leads in turnovers, please show me this stat with proof. And my point is you keep using +/- as a stat to YOUR convenience, then when other people do it (like i did it my previous post to show Bieksa has a better +/- than Ehrhoff this season) you choose to ignore it. Decide if +/- is valid or not. If you decide it is, then Bieksa is our best defensive defensemen this season. If you decide it isn't then you can't use career +/- in your argument cause then your just contradicting yourself. O yeah, in tonights 4-3 loss, Ehrhoff was -3 and Bieksa was +1. I compared game to game stats with these two defensemen for the season and there are six nights where Ehrhoff was a - player and Bieksa was a + player in the same night. There was only one night where Ehrhoff was a + and Bieksa was a -. Also Edler and Ehrhoff probably sees the most ice time out of any canucks defensemen with the twins line(our most productive line). This makes this stat even more significant considering Bieksa is doing this with inferior forwards more often than not.(You can refer to countless AV interviews about this he states many times how he tries his best to put Edler and Ehrhoff out with the Sedin line). I am not trying to discredit Ehrhoff at all, he is a really good offensive defensemen, better then Bieksa for sure, but when it comes to defense the upper hand goes to Bieksa. The reason Bieksa's point totals are as down as they are is because his powerplay time this season has been significantly reduced from other seasons(not saying that this is a bad thing, just explaining why he isn't as productive offensively). When we was on the first powerplay unit and played full seasons without injury he put up 43 points and 42 points, which is similar to Ehrhoffs output from last season(44 points i believe). Anyways, I look forward to you supplying me with this stat which says Bieksa leads the D-men in turnovers. Thats if you choose to respond =). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sameer666 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 ***double post*** sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 chickensh*t ? lol, Can't you read? The post you are replying to states facts here it is again. Your nose must be growing after spewing out the absolute fiction that one year made Ehrhoff's lofty career to date +67 rating . There is absolutely no comparison to BXa's pathetic, paltry career to date +3. lol What makes the Nuck's so dangerous? Their deadly PP, thats what. Which D man makes the PP tick? Ehrhoff and his 32 points so far this year backs that up, vs Bxa's 18, btw, he got his first point in 11 games tonight. Nope try twisting the cold hard facts all you want, it doesn't change the fact Ehrhoff is a better Dman, both offensively and defensively than sad sack Bxa by a mile. Who was -2 tonight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whoopsy Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 No need to say sorry, LePussy has been repeating his post for the whole thread. No substance, no proof, no nothing. It's always Bieksa's fault, even for the ill-timed pinches by Ehrhoff, it's Bieksa's fault for not jumping in off the bench to help, Bieksa's the worst, he slacks off on the bench doing nothing to help Ehrhoff out. It's always Bieksa's fault. Daniel missed the net? Bieksa's fault for not redirecting the puck. Raymond get bumped off the puck? It's Bieksa's fault for not helping. Samuelsson missed a open net? Gotta to be Bieksa's fault, he sneezed and scared Samuelsson. Hamhuis got crunched behind the net? It's Bieksa's fault, he should have blocked off Getzlef first. Ballard injured his knee? It's Bieksa's fault, he should have nailed Mikhalek in center ice. Edler out with a bad back? OF COURSE it's Bieksa's fault, who else could it be. Do I sound like LePussy now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
لني Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 You keep saying he leads in turnovers, please show me this stat with proof. And my point is you keep using +/- as a stat to YOUR convenience, then when other people do it (like i did it my previous post to show Bieksa has a better +/- than Ehrhoff this season) you choose to ignore it. Decide if +/- is valid or not. If you decide it is, then Bieksa is our best defensive defensemen this season. If you decide it isn't then you can't use career +/- in your argument cause then your just contradicting yourself. O yeah, in tonights 4-3 loss, Ehrhoff was -3 and Bieksa was +1. I compared game to game stats with these two defensemen for the season and there are six nights where Ehrhoff was a - player and Bieksa was a + player in the same night. There was only one night where Ehrhoff was a + and Bieksa was a -. Also Edler and Ehrhoff probably sees the most ice time out of any canucks defensemen with the twins line(our most productive line). This makes this stat even more significant considering Bieksa is doing this with inferior forwards more often than not.(You can refer to countless AV interviews about this he states many times how he tries his best to put Edler and Ehrhoff out with the Sedin line). I am not trying to discredit Ehrhoff at all, he is a really good offensive defensemen, better then Bieksa for sure, but when it comes to defense the upper hand goes to Bieksa. The reason Bieksa's point totals are as down as they are is because his powerplay time this season has been significantly reduced from other seasons(not saying that this is a bad thing, just explaining why he isn't as productive offensively). When we was on the first powerplay unit and played full seasons without injury he put up 43 points and 42 points, which is similar to Ehrhoffs output from last season(44 points i believe). Anyways, I look forward to you supplying me with this stat which says Bieksa leads the D-men in turnovers. Thats if you choose to respond =). PPG Ehrhoff GP = 472 Points = 208 PPG = .44 Bieksa GP = 334 Points = 142 PPG = .425 Prior to this season: Ehrhoff GP = 420 Points = 176 PPG = .419 Bieksa GP = 280 Points = 124 PPG = .442 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
لني Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Lol yeah PP. Wasn't the PK that killed us last year? This year: 4th at 85.6% mortality rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sameer666 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 PPG Ehrhoff GP = 472 Points = 208 PPG = .44 Bieksa GP = 334 Points = 142 PPG = .425 Prior to this season: Ehrhoff GP = 420 Points = 176 PPG = .419 Bieksa GP = 280 Points = 124 PPG = .442 nice stat! too bad it's irrelevant, cause "coach" canucklelion said so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbllpp Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 There really isnt one unfortunately. You can look at ESGF and ESGA seperately and then look at them in terms of minutes played. Here's the even strength goals against in terms of even strength minutes played. Bieksa 1 ESGA per 32.06 min ESTOI Ballard 1 ESGA per 29.86 min ESTOI Hamhuis 1 ESGA per 29.19 min ESTOI Edler 1 ESGA per 27.25 min ESTOI Alberts 1 ESGA per 27.12 min ESTOI Ehrhoff 1 ESGA per 26.51 min ESTOI Rome 1 ESGA per 25.06 min ESTOI Here's the even strength goals for in terms of even strength minutes played. Hamhuis 1 ESGF per 17.28 min ESTOI Bieksa 1 ESGF per 18.50 min ESTOI Ehrhoff 1 ESGF per 20.17 min ESTOI Edler 1 ESGF per 20.91 min ESTOI Ballard 1 ESGF per 24.89 min ESTOI Alberts 1 ESGF per 25.83 min ESTOI Rome 1 ESGF per 36.45 min ESTOI From these stats it is obvious why Bieksa leads the team in +/-. But it is result of stellar play at both ends of the ice not just in one end of the rink. You are going to win a lot of games when you designated shut down pair is doing what Hamhuis and Bieksa are doing at both ends of the rink. I also don't buy that Hamhuis is carring Bieksa since it is Bieksa who is leading the team defensively at even strength and he's played alot more minutes without Hamhuis than Hamhuis has played without Bieksa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
لني Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 You can look at ESGF and ESGA seperately and then look at them in terms of minutes played. Here's the even strength goals against in terms of even strength minutes played. Bieksa 1 ESGA per 32.06 min ESTOI Ballard 1 ESGA per 29.86 min ESTOI Hamhuis 1 ESGA per 29.19 min ESTOI Edler 1 ESGA per 27.25 min ESTOI Alberts 1 ESGA per 27.12 min ESTOI Ehrhoff 1 ESGA per 26.51 min ESTOI Rome 1 ESGA per 25.06 min ESTOI Here's the even strength goals for in terms of even strength minutes played. Hamhuis 1 ESGF per 17.28 min ESTOI Bieksa 1 ESGF per 18.50 min ESTOI Ehrhoff 1 ESGF per 20.17 min ESTOI Edler 1 ESGF per 20.91 min ESTOI Ballard 1 ESGF per 24.89 min ESTOI Alberts 1 ESGF per 25.83 min ESTOI Rome 1 ESGF per 36.45 min ESTOI From these stats it is obvious why Bieksa leads the team in +/-. But it is result of stellar play at both ends of the ice not just in one end of the rink. You are going to win a lot of games when you designated shut down pair is doing what Hamhuis and Bieksa are doing at both ends of the rink. I also don't buy that Hamhuis is carring Bieksa since it is Bieksa who is leading the team defensively at even strength and he's played alot more minutes without Hamhuis than Hamhuis has played without Bieksa. Yes. I'll take a pair of shut down D who also get 25 points each. Without a second thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 As most people know, I have always said that +/- is one of the most unreliable stats to gauge individual defensive performance because the nature of how it is calculated relies on many other factors. How does your team scoring more than the other team make you better defensively anyway? Hence the inherent flaw with +/- as a defensive benchmark. Having said that, you seem to be ignoring that Bieksa also gets a ton of 5 on 5 time with the Sedin and Kesler lines as well. You are making it sound like he gets only the hard minutes on one side and not the easy ones on the other. That is simply not true. It is no coincidence that Bieksa and Hamhuis +/- spiked when the Sedins and Kesler turned red hot. Bieksa and Hamhuis have been playing with them a ton and have benefited with many extra pluses as well. +/- is a team stat more than an individual one. Think of it this way......most of the Bieksa supporters suggest that Ehrhoff is way worse defensively than Bieksa, right? Well, how do you explain their +/- last year then? In that case, it will probably be explained away because he played with the Sedins and Kesler a lot......well, the same applies to Bieksa and Hamhuis this year. +/- has a lot to do with who you play with. If Bieksa and Hamhuis played with the 4th line constantly, do you think their +/- would be as good? I highly doubt it. The other players on the ice have a huge impact on any individual players +/-. You'll have to provide me with some proof to that claim. What I know for a fact is that earlier in this thread there is a direct quote from Rick Bowness stating that the team tries to get the Ehrhoff-Edler pairing out with the Sedins as much as possible. I also know that up until Edler's injury problems, the two were a fixture on the 1st PP unit. I also know for a fact that the Hamhuis-Bieksa pairing is routinely used against the top offensive lines of the opposition. Case in point: Bieksa earned his +1 last night predominantly playing against the Getzlaf line, while Ehrhoff earned his -2 mostly against the Koivu line. Of course nothing is ever 100%, but stating that Juice gets a "ton" of playing time with the Sedins is more of your typical hyperbole. I suppose it could be interpreted as true in general terms, but in comparison to the amount of time that Ehrhoff plays with the twins, it's absolutely untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbllpp Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 You'll have to provide me with some proof to that claim. What I know for a fact is that earlier in this thread there is a direct quote from Rick Bowness stating that the team tries to get the Ehrhoff-Edler pairing out with the Sedins as much as possible. I also know that up until Edler's injury problems, the two were a fixture on the 1st PP unit. I also know for a fact that the Hamhuis-Bieksa pairing is routinely used against the top offensive lines of the opposition. Case in point: Bieksa earned his +1 last night predominantly playing against the Getzlaf line, while Ehrhoff earned his -2 mostly against the Koivu line. Of course nothing is ever 100%, but stating that Juice gets a "ton" of playing time with the Sedins is more of your typical hyperbole. I suppose it could be interpreted as true in general terms, but in comparison to the amount of time that Ehrhoff plays with the twins, it's absolutely untrue. Here's some stats for you to support your view. (from behindthenet.ca) Quality of team Hamhuis 0.251 Ehrhoff 0.244 Edler 0.192 Bieksa 0.172 Quality of Comp. Bieksa 0.054 Hamhuis 0.046 Ehrhoff 0.021 Edler 0.003 These derived from the +/- of the players from both sides and time on ice. Looking at the +/- for the Canucks. Bieksa +24 Kesler +23 Daniel +23 Henrik +21 Hamhuis +21 Burrows +20 Tambellini +11 Edler +10 Ehrhoff +10 Samuelsson +9 Raymond +9 Since Hamhuis +/- > Edlers +/- for Ehrhoff to have such a high Quality of Team rating one would think he must spend alot of time with the top +/- forwards which happen to be the players in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 You'll have to provide me with some proof to that claim. What I know for a fact is that earlier in this thread there is a direct quote from Rick Bowness stating that the team tries to get the Ehrhoff-Edler pairing out with the Sedins as much as possible. I also know that up until Edler's injury problems, the two were a fixture on the 1st PP unit. I also know for a fact that the Hamhuis-Bieksa pairing is routinely used against the top offensive lines of the opposition. Case in point: Bieksa earned his +1 last night predominantly playing against the Getzlaf line, while Ehrhoff earned his -2 mostly against the Koivu line. Of course nothing is ever 100%, but stating that Juice gets a "ton" of playing time with the Sedins is more of your typical hyperbole. I suppose it could be interpreted as true in general terms, but in comparison to the amount of time that Ehrhoff plays with the twins, it's absolutely untrue. How about common sense? Do you even watch the games? When I see the Sedins, much of the time I also see Bieksa and Hamhuis. Also, your example of Bieksa playing against the Getzlaf line actually proves my point. The Sedins were playing against the Getzlaf line all night last night. How exactly would Bieksa get such a high +/- without getting significant playing time with the top two lines, who happen to do the majority of the scoring on this team? Simply put, he wouldnt. Since +/- relies on offensive production just as much as defensive play, it stands to reason that he is getting time with the top two lines 5 on 5. using your own eyes actually confirms this. You trying to suggest that Bieksa is doing it all alone while getting limited time with the top lines on this team is YOUR typical BS, nevermind hyperbole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Here's some stats for you to support your view. (from behindthenet.ca) Quality of team Hamhuis 0.251 Ehrhoff 0.244 Edler 0.192 Bieksa 0.172 Quality of Comp. Bieksa 0.054 Hamhuis 0.046 Ehrhoff 0.021 Edler 0.003 These derived from the +/- of the players from both sides and time on ice. Looking at the +/- for the Canucks. Bieksa +24 Kesler +23 Daniel +23 Henrik +21 Hamhuis +21 Burrows +20 Tambellini +11 Edler +10 Ehrhoff +10 Samuelsson +9 Raymond +9 Since Hamhuis +/- > Edlers +/- for Ehrhoff to have such a high Quality of Team rating one would think he must spend alot of time with the top +/- forwards which happen to be the players in question. The quality of team numbers are not that different among the top 4 guys you list. The fact that Bieksa and Hamhuis play together almost exclusively suggests that the difference in the numbers is statistically insignificant, considering Hamhuis numbers are highest in that regard. Look at the 3rd pairing guys as well, and see exactly how statistically insignificant the differences are in the top 4 guys numbers. If you also included and looked at Rome, Ballard, and Alberts numbers, my point that Bieksa and Hamhuis play a lot with the top 2 lines 5 on 5 becomes rather obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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