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Kevin Bieksa you are really...


Zigmund.Palffy

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You'll have to provide me with some proof to that claim.

What I know for a fact is that earlier in this thread there is a direct quote from Rick Bowness stating that the team tries to get the Ehrhoff-Edler pairing out with the Sedins as much as possible. I also know that up until Edler's injury problems, the two were a fixture on the 1st PP unit.

I also know for a fact that the Hamhuis-Bieksa pairing is routinely used against the top offensive lines of the opposition. Case in point: Bieksa earned his +1 last night predominantly playing against the Getzlaf line, while Ehrhoff earned his -2 mostly against the Koivu line.

Of course nothing is ever 100%, but stating that Juice gets a "ton" of playing time with the Sedins is more of your typical hyperbole. I suppose it could be interpreted as true in general terms, but in comparison to the amount of time that Ehrhoff plays with the twins, it's absolutely untrue.

I hardly see Juice out with the Sedin line...i have seen him out with the Kesler line though...but not much.

Just a quick aside...anyone ever notice that Bones is pretty savvy with his d-pairing bench management??!!!!

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I hardly see Juice out with the Sedin line...i have seen him out with the Kesler line though...but not much.

Just a quick aside...anyone ever notice that Bones is pretty savvy with his d-pairing bench management??!!!!

So, he plays close to top minutes on the team but does not play much with the top 2 lines? Also, it must be a coincidence that his +/- started skyrocketing at the same time the Sedins and Kesler turned on the jets offensively and have had their own +/- stats mirror Bieksas.

If you dont see Hamhuis and bieksa out there constantly with the Sedins or Kesler 5 on 5, then you are simply not watching the games. They play a lot with those lines.

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You keep saying he leads in turnovers, please show me this stat with proof.

And my point is you keep using +/- as a stat to YOUR convenience, then when other people do it (like i did it my previous post to show Bieksa has a better +/- than Ehrhoff this season) you choose to ignore it. Decide if +/- is valid or not. If you decide it is, then Bieksa is our best defensive defensemen this season. If you decide it isn't then you can't use career +/- in your argument cause then your just contradicting yourself.

O yeah, in tonights 4-3 loss, Ehrhoff was -3 and Bieksa was +1. I compared game to game stats with these two defensemen for the season and there are six nights where Ehrhoff was a - player and Bieksa was a + player in the same night. There was only one night where Ehrhoff was a + and Bieksa was a -. Also Edler and Ehrhoff probably sees the most ice time out of any canucks defensemen with the twins line(our most productive line). This makes this stat even more significant considering Bieksa is doing this with inferior forwards more often than not.(You can refer to countless AV interviews about this he states many times how he tries his best to put Edler and Ehrhoff out with the Sedin line).

I am not trying to discredit Ehrhoff at all, he is a really good offensive defensemen, better then Bieksa for sure, but when it comes to defense the upper hand goes to Bieksa. The reason Bieksa's point totals are as down as they are is because his powerplay time this season has been significantly reduced from other seasons(not saying that this is a bad thing, just explaining why he isn't as productive offensively). When we was on the first powerplay unit and played full seasons without injury he put up 43 points and 42 points, which is similar to Ehrhoffs output from last season(44 points i believe).

Anyways, I look forward to you supplying me with this stat which says Bieksa leads the D-men in turnovers. Thats if you choose to respond =).

Bxa's propensity for give aways has been discussed in this thread ad nauseum, You are the only poster who has questioned it.

In his defense, he's not as bad as he has been in past years, but still leads the team in giveaways and is 34 th ranked giveaway machine in the league. here is the link to the team stats, Mr. doubting Thomas

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20112VANDADAll&sort=giveaways&viewName=rtssPlayerStats

as far as +/- goes , it is a limited stat for determining defensive effectiveness, but when the career difference is so great, as between Ehrhoff + Bxa , +67 to +3, it takes on a life of its own. I agree Ehrhoff had a rough game last night, certainly not his typical performance, but Bxa was brutal defensively as usual, even though it may not be reflected in his +/- stats. Bottom line is Ehrhoff >>> Bxa

All that said, with the injuries to Edler, Ballard, Hamhuis, and with Salo not back yet, even I'm starting to come around to liking the fact Bxa is still around.

IMO with a healthy lineup , Bxa is the #5 or 6 Dman on the depth chart, behind Edler, Salo, Hamhuis, Ehrhoff and Ballard fo sure. There is no way MG will re sign him for beyond this season.

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I cannot believe this thread is still going. Are you clowns ever gonna give it a rest? Bieksa is a solid player. Not the best, not the worst, just solid. He's not going anywhere. I cannot imagine how many times you've argued the same point over and over in this thread. Clearly you're not going to convince the other side. Do you not see the futility in this? My goodness!

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The quality of team numbers are not that different among the top 4 guys you list. The fact that Bieksa and Hamhuis play together almost exclusively suggests that the difference in the numbers is statistically insignificant, considering Hamhuis numbers are highest in that regard. Look at the 3rd pairing guys as well, and see exactly how statistically insignificant the differences are in the top 4 guys numbers.

If you also included and looked at Rome, Ballard, and Alberts numbers, my point that Bieksa and Hamhuis play a lot with the top 2 lines 5 on 5 becomes rather obvious.

The descrepency between Hamhuis and Bieksa comes from the fact that Bieksa has played alot more minutes this season with lower +/- defencemen than Hamhuis. Hamhuis Quality of Team is much more affected by Bieksa than Bieksa's is by Hamhuis purely from the % of their total minutes that they play with each other. Yes Bieksa plays alot with the Sedins when you compare them to the bottom pairings which is why I didn't include them. However comparing the 2 top pairings it is clear that Ehrhoff spent alot of time playing with the top +/- forwards.

Furthermore Bieksa played almost 24 min at ES last night. When you play that much you'll play a fair bit with all the forward lines.

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The descrepency between Hamhuis and Bieksa comes from the fact that Bieksa has played alot more minutes this season with lower +/- defencemen than Hamhuis. Hamhuis Quality of Team is much more affected by Bieksa than Bieksa's is by Hamhuis purely from the % of their total minutes that they play with each other. Yes Bieksa plays alot with the Sedins when you compare them to the bottom pairings which is why I didn't include them. However comparing the 2 top pairings it is clear that Ehrhoff spent alot of time playing with the top +/- forwards.

Furthermore Bieksa played almost 24 min at ES last night. When you play that much you'll play a fair bit with all the forward lines.

I never said Ehrhoff does not play a lot with the top 2 lines. He obviously does. My point was to dispute people who are suggesting that Bieksa and Hamhuis play limited minutes with the top 2 lines and still manage to be generate great +/- numbers. It is simply not true. They play a comparable amount with the top 2 lines, especially during the last few months (when, not coincidentally, their +/- numbers have spiked sharply as have those of the Sedin and Kesler lines).

The quality stats also factor in the entire season, and my point was that Bieksa and Hamhuis have really come on in the +/- department since their time with the Sedin and Kesler lines has been steadily increasing and those two lines went on a tear.

Your numbers support that argument as much or more than they refute it.

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So, he plays close to top minutes on the team but does not play much with the top 2 lines? Also, it must be a coincidence that his +/- started skyrocketing at the same time the Sedins and Kesler turned on the jets offensively and have had their own +/- stats mirror Bieksas.

If you dont see Hamhuis and bieksa out there constantly with the Sedins or Kesler 5 on 5, then you are simply not watching the games. They play a lot with those lines.

Apologies...i should clarify that he not used as an exclusive pairing for those lines.

A well run bench, like the Canucks, rotate d-pairings to match the oppositions top lines.

If anything you can see it as a testament to the bench...or the top-6, or the oppositions poor bench management. I know if i was the opposition id be obsessed with using my potent forwards against Ehrhoff.

Of course he is out there with those lines..do not ever accuse me of not watching the games...because that is ( just look earlier in the thread) simply not the case.

When Eddie was healthy those pairings minutes alotted for Bones to throw out the shutdown pairing as he sees fit.

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I never said Ehrhoff does not play a lot with the top 2 lines. He obviously does. My point was to dispute people who are suggesting that Bieksa and Hamhuis play limited minutes with the top 2 lines and still manage to be generate great +/- numbers. It is simply not true. They play a comparable amount with the top 2 lines, especially during the last few months (when, not coincidentally, their +/- numbers have spiked sharply as have those of the Sedin and Kesler lines).

The quality stats also factor in the entire season, and my point was that Bieksa and Hamhuis have really come on in the +/- department since their time with the Sedin and Kesler lines has been steadily increasing and those two lines went on a tear.

Your numbers support that argument as much or more than they refute it.

So turn the question around and ask yourself how much time Ehrhoff spends out there with the bottom 2 lines. I've seen a lot of Bieksa and Hamhuis out there with Tanner Glass and co. this year and honestly can't remember much of Ehrhoff out there with these guys. Given the fact that the top four guys have very similar ESTOI/game numbers if Bieksa and Hamhuis are playing more often with the bottom 2 lines than Edler and Ehrhoff the opposite must be true that Edler and Ehrhoff play more often with the top 2 lines. By how much who cares it is a stupid argument anyway. The fact that Bieksa and Hamhuis are the more effective even strength pair both offensively and defensively they should be getting the most time with the top lines

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Bxa's propensity for give aways has been discussed in this thread ad nauseum, You are the only poster who has questioned it.

In his defense, he's not as bad as he has been in past years, but still leads the team in giveaways and is 34 th ranked giveaway machine in the league. here is the link to the team stats, Mr. doubting Thomas

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20112VANDADAll&sort=giveaways&viewName=rtssPlayerStats

as far as +/- goes , it is a limited stat for determining defensive effectiveness, but when the career difference is so great, as between Ehrhoff + Bxa , +67 to +3, it takes on a life of its own. I agree Ehrhoff had a rough game last night, certainly not his typical performance, but Bxa was brutal defensively as usual, even though it may not be reflected in his +/- stats. Bottom line is Ehrhoff >>> Bxa

All that said, with the injuries to Edler, Ballard, Hamhuis, and with Salo not back yet, even I'm starting to come around to liking the fact Bxa is still around.

IMO with a healthy lineup , Bxa is the #5 or 6 Dman on the depth chart, behind Edler, Salo, Hamhuis, Ehrhoff and Ballard fo sure. There is no way MG will re sign him for beyond this season.

LePussy,

I seemed to recall refuting your claim totally at least 3 times earlier in this thread about the turnover stat, now you want to bring this up again and get beaten down again? Same thing with the +/- stat which you at one time claim is important then get refuted and claimed it's not important only to claim it's important again after playing with your wording. Make up your mind buddy.

If you really want to talk about turnovers, I can always dig up my own post on the team turnover stat and embarrass you again. Same can be said with the +/-.

Career stat only stats what had happened before, not what is happening now in the current tense. Want some proof? Go check out Kovalchuk's numbers, he WAS pretty much a career 40 goal scorer per season, but CURRENTLY he is on pace to only get to mid 20s, those career stats didn't really support his CURRENT play.

Another thing, if you think CAREER numbers are so great, why don't we sign Mr. 99 then? His career numbers are superhuman, so according to your 'view', he gotta be really good NOW.

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So turn the question around and ask yourself how much time Ehrhoff spends out there with the bottom 2 lines. I've seen a lot of Bieksa and Hamhuis out there with Tanner Glass and co. this year and honestly can't remember much of Ehrhoff out there with these guys. Given the fact that the top four guys have very similar ESTOI/game numbers if Bieksa and Hamhuis are playing more often with the bottom 2 lines than Edler and Ehrhoff the opposite must be true that Edler and Ehrhoff play more often with the top 2 lines. By how much who cares it is a stupid argument anyway. The fact that Bieksa and Hamhuis are the more effective even strength pair both offensively and defensively they should be getting the most time with the top lines

I did not suggest that Bieksa and Hamhuis play more than Ehrhoff and Edler with the top 2 lines. Without in depth game by game analysis of ice time, that is not going to be a certainty either way. I only said that they play significant minutes with the top 2 lines, which is quite simply true.

I would take Ehrhoff and Edler in any offensive situations ahead of Bieksa and Hamhuis EVERY time, and so would every coach in the league.

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LePussy,

I seemed to recall refuting your claim totally at least 3 times earlier in this thread about the turnover stat, now you want to bring this up again and get beaten down again? Same thing with the +/- stat which you at one time claim is important then get refuted and claimed it's not important only to claim it's important again after playing with your wording. Make up your mind buddy.

If you really want to talk about turnovers, I can always dig up my own post on the team turnover stat and embarrass you again. Same can be said with the +/-.

Career stat only stats what had happened before, not what is happening now in the current tense. Want some proof? Go check out Kovalchuk's numbers, he WAS pretty much a career 40 goal scorer per season, but CURRENTLY he is on pace to only get to mid 20s, those career stats didn't really support his CURRENT play.

Another thing, if you think CAREER numbers are so great, why don't we sign Mr. 99 then? His career numbers are superhuman, so according to your 'view', he gotta be really good NOW.

Look Wussy, you are talking thru your ussy again. Bxa does and always has led the team in giveaways, untimely penalties and general bonheadedness. As usual your posts make no sense.

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Look Wussy, you are talking thru your ussy again. Bxa does and always has let the team in giveaways, untimely penalties and general bonheadedness. As usual your posts make no sense.

Let me ask you something. If they are both playing their best hockey, who do you think has more value, both to the team, and in turns of a trade. Rypien or Bieksa?

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Let me ask you something. If they are both playing their best hockey, who do you think has more value, both to the team, and in turns of a trade. Rypien or Bieksa?

ridonculous question. Ask me who is the better fighter? who is better on the 4th line? Who is the better Dman. I laid out depth chart for D men a couple of posts back.

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ridonculous question. Ask me who is the better fighter? who is better on the 4th line? Who is the better Dman. I laid out depth chart for D men a couple of posts back.

Ignoring salary, I'd actually prefer Bieksa on the 4th line over Rypien.

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You keep saying he leads in turnovers, please show me this stat with proof.

The stats are there on NHL.com. Just change the right hand drop down menu from summary to real-time stats.

Bieksa does indeed lead the team in giveaways with 36. Look at that! The problem is he doesn't want you to look any further. What he fails to mention is Bieksa is second to Kesler in takeaways with 37. So Bieksa's takeaways versus giveaways is a +1. Don't look at that! Furthermore Ehrhoff's takeaways (11) versus his giveaways (26) puts him at a team worst -15. Ballard isn't far behind with -11. Definitely don't look at that. The bigger and faster Ehrhoff also has a whopping 36 hits compared to Bieksa's 88 (3rd on the team). Don't look at that either. No, he only wants you to look at stats that he cherry picks and ignore the rest. And if you don't he'll tell you, "stats are for losers". So sorry you'll just have to ignore takeaways, hits, +/-, even strength points and stick with previous years +/- and this seasons giveaways.

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Look Wussy, you are talking thru your ussy again. Bxa does and always has led the team in giveaways, untimely penalties and general bonheadedness. As usual your posts make no sense.

Wrong as usual.

Ehrhoff led the team in 09/10 with 54 but Bieksa missed 27 games

In Bieksa's full seasons:

Edler led the team in 08/09 with 65

Naslund and Henrik tied for the lead in 06/07 with 52

So much for "always has".

IMO with a healthy lineup , Bxa is the #5 or 6 Dman on the depth chart, behind Edler, Salo, Hamhuis, Ehrhoff and Ballard fo sure. There is no way MG will re sign him for beyond this season.

You've been wrong so many times you may as well continue the tradition. lol

I'd be willing to wager with a healthy D the Hamhuis/Bieksa pairing will stand as the shutdown duo. Salo will be paired with Ballard in the 5/6 role and will get PP time.

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How about common sense? Do you even watch the games? When I see the Sedins, much of the time I also see Bieksa and Hamhuis.

Do I watch the games? That's a funny question coming from you.

Which one of us in this very thread has stated categorically that Bieksa is "terrible defensively", is a "terrible shot blocker", "doesn't deserve his ice time" and only gets his ice time "because AV plays favorites" completely ignoring, (or more likely not realizing) the fact that Rick Bowness makes those decisions.

I fact, you've been wrong with such frequency that I have to agree with Bedbeats and take insult at hearing "do you watch the games" from someone as consistently erroneous as you.

Moreover, saying that you see the Sedins with Hamhuis and Bieksa "much of the time" is deflecting. I'm sure you're aware that Edler is injured, (I'm pretty sure, anyway) so recent history isn't much of a yardstick in determining who spends the most time with whom.

However, I have Rick Bowness' assertion, coupled with what I have seen all season to help me arrive at the conclusion that the Edler-Ehrhoff tandem are most often on the ice with the Sedins, while the shut-down tandem of Hamhuis and Bieksa most often draw the toughest opposition forwards.

BTW: Please post some proof of your claim that Bieksa's +/- has "spiked" along with that of the twins and Kes. I could be wrong, as I haven't bothered to look, but my feeling is that they have all been fairly consistently climbing all season.

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