wallstreetamigo Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 The concern with Ehrhoff is that hes too reliant on the Sedins and on the PP for his points. Neither of which were up to snuff in the first round. Hes most certainly not in the league of Keith who showed this series bar a few games what a real number one and someone getting paid 5 + million is worth. From what I can see the nucks have approx 14 million (16 million if the cap goes up 2 mill) for cap space with 13 signed. We need 3 D men and 6 forwards for that. maybe ive miscalculated. It goes without saying that the offensive production of Ehrhoff (or Bieksa or any other dman on this team) is going to rely heavily on the top offensive forwards whether PP or 5 on 5. It is the same for any dman in the league, because they are dmen and not forwards. As for Duncan Keith, he is overrated in a many ways on this forum. He had a great couple of great games offensively because (like the rest of the Hawks) he was handed opportunities by the Canucks to have nothing but time and space to make plays. As soon as they got back to hitting him and limiting his time and space the last two games, he turned back into a pansy who couldn't even move the puck effectively because he was afraid of being hit. He is a great dman but he is not that much better than what we have in Ehrhoff, imo. Being from BC (or living here from his teens on actually) means that he is some god on CDC. He looked decidedly average in Game 7 when he was being hit. If we are trying to have a Duncan Keith type puck moving guy on our team though, I would choose Ehrhoff over Bieksa, Ballard, Hamhuis, Edler, etc. every time. And so would anyone with any hockey sense at all. Suggesting that Ehrhoff is only leeching off the Sedins completely discounts two things. First, he actually does create a lot of offense through his own skill rather than just relying on the Sedins. Second, he is decent defensively and is a great option for the PK as well. He is not a one trick pony. Ehrhoff and Edler were not great in this series by any stretch, but the Sedins were brutal defensively. Playing 5 on 5 with them certainly left the D out to dry a lot. Bieksa and Hamhuis got out there a lot with Kesler and that certainly made defensive life easier on them this series. I don't blame Ehrhoff defensively as much as I do the Sedins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Best of the worse??? This is horse &*$^ and you know it. You really just can't give him any credit eh? He was the best all series which included the 5 games that most of the team didn't $&*^ the bed. He wouldn't you nerd that part was a joke. However Ehroff was certainly one of the worst D on the ice overall in the first round but that could be subjective based on expectations. Again...you bias nerd. They'll both be back next season so no worries. I'd hate to lose either of them. Don't care. My hope is that whether AV is here or not Ballard isn't here. You guys can piss and moan about how he's not getting his chances but he's not done much with what he's gotten. My man crush on him based on what I saw in Phoenix and Florida is over. He's the same player he was that last year in Florida...average and over paid. Ballard will still fetch something pretty good in return. He's a great bottom 2 and a good bottom 4 defender. As far as grabner...well we'll have to wait and see how he does in the future. Hate to see that sophmore jinx hit him. Either way Grabner was traded away for potential; Ballard is still good and Oreo is a great addition to the teams bottom 6. Calling me a nerd must somehow make you feel better. I don't particularly care if Ballard is traded either. That was my point. Wasting his talent by misusing him is not worth it to a cap strapped team. With proper use, I fully expect him to again be a big minute solid top 4 guy wherever he ends up. Ehrhoff and Edler looked worse than they actually were in large part because the Sedins were so brutal defensively it was not even funny. Playing 5 on 5 with them was a curse in this series. Bieksa and Hamhuis played with the 2nd and 3rd lines a lot 5 on 5. You know, the lines that were actually interesting in back checking and putting an effort into defense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
لني Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 People discount Ehrhoff so much on here. 50 point smooth skating puck moving dmen who can play on the PP and PK are not easy to find. Ballard has some skills in those areas and could be a serviceable replacement in some ways but I honestly don't think he is the answer should Ehrhoff walk, to be honest. Not that he would ever be given a shot in that role anyway should Ehrhoff walk. Does anyone really believe that AV would not attempt to have Bieksa replace Ehrhoff in that situation? We have seen that movie before and none of us liked the ending. To me, neither Bieksa nor Ballard is the answer there. This team still needs a guy like Ehrhoff. It is not all about hitting, fighting, and good Canadian grit. Ehrhoff was very good on the PK this season as well, so he is not just an offensive guy. After how Ballard was shooting the puck last night though, I do want to see him on the point on the PP in Salo's absence though. He may not have the heavy shot that Salo has but he displayed great instincts offensively last night and is aggressive when used in that role. He was a huge part in that 3rd line dominating shift and looked like he was on the PP there. I think he could be a solid contributor with some PP time. It also might free up Bieksa and company to focus on shutdown and PK (where the team in general was shaky against the Hawks compared to what we are used to seeing from them). What??? People discount Ehrhoff? Totally disagree. If anything people give Ehrhoff tons of credit. No one said anything about Canadian grit and this certainly is not a Canadian vs Euro argument at least from my side. Bieksa plays a gritty game comparatively but I dont see that as a negative. As for the PK breaking down again look no further than the piss poor numbers from the forwards. Special teams aside the majority of games special teams make up small portion of the total time. 5v5 is where its at. Ehrhoff is a good D man but his is no where near what people are thinking he will get at 5+ million. Edler may get to that point. So MG will obviously have to decide what he wants i just simply dont see him paying 5+ for Ehrhoff and thats why I think the negotiations have broken down. Ehrhoff was a non factor in this series. Not something you want from you 50 point Dman nor from someone people are talking about paying 5 + for. Disappointing consider how important this series was and what a crap fest it was. Like I said as the Sedins go so does Ehrhoff. Compared to someone like Keith who took control of games. No dice. You were certainly quick to do your number crunching to show the stats from the regular season indicating Ehrhoff stepping up against the better teams while Bieksa did so against weaker teams. We certainly didnt see that against the Hawks. What skills do you think Ballard lacks that cant replace Ehrhoff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 You do realize how brutal this sound on all the Canucks D don't you. Bieksa was the most consistant D-man through this series. Get over it. Toews 1 G 3 A -4 Bieksa 1 G 2 A +3 I think Bieksa won that battle don't you? Not sure any of the other nuck d-men can say that they won their battle as soundly as that. Sedins + Edler/Ehrhoff is scary in a bad way at even strength and has been all year. Our entire team was uncharacteristically bad defensively in this series. So, Kesler, Burrows, Raymond, Hamhuis, etc. had NOTHING to do with Toews being shut down? It was ALL Bieksa? Somehow I doubt it. Kesler deserves the lion's share of the credit for Toews ineffectiveness offensively. I also don't think it is Ehrhoff and Edler's fault that the Sedins hung them out to dry defensively 5 on 5 on most shifts. The Sedins had a terrible series defensively and dragged our D down with them unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmployeeoftheMonth Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Calling me a nerd must somehow make you feel better. I don't particularly care if Ballard is traded either. That was my point. Wasting his talent by misusing him is not worth it to a cap strapped team. With proper use, I fully expect him to again be a big minute solid top 4 guy wherever he ends up. Ehrhoff and Edler looked worse than they actually were in large part because the Sedins were so brutal defensively it was not even funny. Playing 5 on 5 with them was a curse in this series. Bieksa and Hamhuis played with the 2nd and 3rd lines a lot 5 on 5. You know, the lines that were actually interesting in back checking and putting an effort into defense? You nerd it's playful banter not animosity. If you're panties are that bunched then I really don't give a damn but hopefully you can turn that frown upside down. And my point isn't that his talent is wasted rather that he hasn't shown what he should be with what he's been given. He'll be a good top 4 on a team without as much depth as this team has but he doesn't stack up with this teams top 4. Teams like Phoenix and Florida however he looked very good. Ehrhoff bobbled the puck and a lot of misplays and Edler stopped hitting for 2-3 games which quite frankly coupled with his shot is his bread and butter. Can't fault him for D zone coverage because that aspect of his game isn't his strong suit. Neither of those 2 things had anything to do with the Sedins. Neither of these 2 things have anything to do with Bieksa either. Bottom line we can pick and choose lots of things individually but this team wavered because of more than just single players failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
لني Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 It goes without saying that the offensive production of Ehrhoff (or Bieksa or any other dman on this team) is going to rely heavily on the top offensive forwards whether PP or 5 on 5. It is the same for any dman in the league, because they are dmen and not forwards. As for Duncan Keith, he is overrated in a many ways on this forum. He had a great couple of great games offensively because (like the rest of the Hawks) he was handed opportunities by the Canucks to have nothing but time and space to make plays. As soon as they got back to hitting him and limiting his time and space the last two games, he turned back into a pansy who couldn't even move the puck effectively because he was afraid of being hit. He is a great dman but he is not that much better than what we have in Ehrhoff, imo. Being from BC (or living here from his teens on actually) means that he is some god on CDC. He looked decidedly average in Game 7 when he was being hit. If we are trying to have a Duncan Keith type puck moving guy on our team though, I would choose Ehrhoff over Bieksa, Ballard, Hamhuis, Edler, etc. every time. And so would anyone with any hockey sense at all. Suggesting that Ehrhoff is only leeching off the Sedins completely discounts two things. First, he actually does create a lot of offense through his own skill rather than just relying on the Sedins. Second, he is decent defensively and is a great option for the PK as well. He is not a one trick pony. Ehrhoff and Edler were not great in this series by any stretch, but the Sedins were brutal defensively. Playing 5 on 5 with them certainly left the D out to dry a lot. Bieksa and Hamhuis got out there a lot with Kesler and that certainly made defensive life easier on them this series. I don't blame Ehrhoff defensively as much as I do the Sedins. you dont blame Ehrhoff as much as the Sedins. Good that makes two of us. But you certainly are quick to blame Bieksa. Thats the difference. But forget about defense. What about the offense Ehrhoff is supposed to bring? PP? And Keith is not overated. He showed why hes a Norris winner because he has the ability to take over a game. Something Ehrhoff has rarely if ever shown he can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Edler will most definitely get over the 5.00 per year if he signs a long term deal through his prime. IF he signs a 10 year deal, it will be 5.00 per at least. This would mean we have Edler through ages 26-36, so pretty much his prime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastern Canuck Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Some people just won't let up, I can't believe this thread still exists. Kevin Bieksa was the best player of the series for the Canucks. I placed him over Kes because, unlike the 40-goal scoring forward, Bieksa put one in the net He is the best defenceman on the team and this crap really needs to stop. It was interesting at the beginning of the season, but almost 90 games has to show anybody that thinks Bieksa is anything short of a top-pair defencemen that they should be eating crow now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 What??? People discount Ehrhoff? Totally disagree. If anything people give Ehrhoff tons of credit. No one said anything about Canadian grit and this certainly is not a Canadian vs Euro argument at least from my side. Bieksa plays a gritty game comparatively but I dont see that as a negative. As for the PK breaking down again look no further than the piss poor numbers from the forwards. Special teams aside the majority of games special teams make up small portion of the total time. 5v5 is where its at. Ehrhoff is a good D man but his is no where near what people are thinking he will get at 5+ million. Edler may get to that point. So MG will obviously have to decide what he wants i just simply dont see him paying 5+ for Ehrhoff and thats why I think the negotiations have broken down. Ehrhoff was a non factor in this series. Not something you want from you 50 point Dman nor from someone people are talking about paying 5 + for. Disappointing consider how important this series was and what a crap fest it was. Like I said as the Sedins go so does Ehrhoff. Compared to someone like Keith who took control of games. No dice. You were certainly quick to do your number crunching to show the stats from the regular season indicating Ehrhoff stepping up against the better teams while Bieksa did so against weaker teams. We certainly didnt see that against the Hawks. What skills do you think Ballard lacks that cant replace Ehrhoff? If 5v5 is where you want to go, then like I have said, would any of our D have looked good playing with the Sedins 5 on 5 in this series? Do you really believe that Bieksa would have looked good defensively playing 5 on 5 constantly with the Sedin line? I doubt it. They were brutal and your suggestion that Ehrhoff goes as the Sedins go would have applied to Bieksa or anyone else. It is one series. Ehrhoff is counted on to produce on the PP (something Bieksa was remarkably terrible at all season long if we are comparing) and the team did not get many PP chances this series. Hard to blame Ehrhoff for that. I think Edler was far worse defensively this series but because he hits, he gets noticed. I never put a dollar value on Ehrhoff. Based on the market though, he is worth 5 million. Is he worth that to the Canucks? Maybe, maybe not. The only thing Ballard really lacks is the confidence of this coaching staff. Does anyone truly believe he would get a top 4 chance no matter who stays and who goes? It certainly does not look that way at this point. Again, I am totally okay with that as long as they trade him and not waste cap space on a guy the coaching staff refuses to use properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Some people just won't let up, I can't believe this thread still exists. Kevin Bieksa was the best player of the series for the Canucks. I placed him over Kes because, unlike the 40-goal scoring forward, Bieksa put one in the net He is the best defenceman on the team and this crap really needs to stop. It was interesting at the beginning of the season, but almost 90 games has to show anybody that thinks Bieksa is anything short of a top-pair defencemen that they should be eating crow now. Bieksa was not the best player in this series for the Canucks. Not even close actually. The best dman? Perhaps. But not the best player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaku Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 i like Bieksa, i think he has been playing really well lately, in Game 7 vs the Hawks he was making good shutdown plays on Toews, sharp, and Kane. In game 5 he beat the piss out of Stalberg standing up for his team mate, showing that the Canucks weren't dead in the game. He hasn't made stupid plays. In game 6 he played like 37 minutes, and was the best d-man that night. I understand Bieksa was a bit of a plug a while ago, but really i have seen worse d-men than him. I'm a fan of Juice. Im just wondering why people dislike him so much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
لني Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 If 5v5 is where you want to go, then like I have said, would any of our D have looked good playing with the Sedins 5 on 5 in this series? Do you really believe that Bieksa would have looked good defensively playing 5 on 5 constantly with the Sedin line? I doubt it. They were brutal and your suggestion that Ehrhoff goes as the Sedins go would have applied to Bieksa or anyone else. It is one series. Ehrhoff is counted on to produce on the PP (something Bieksa was remarkably terrible at all season long if we are comparing) and the team did not get many PP chances this series. Hard to blame Ehrhoff for that. I think Edler was far worse defensively this series but because he hits, he gets noticed. I never put a dollar value on Ehrhoff. Based on the market though, he is worth 5 million. Is he worth that to the Canucks? Maybe, maybe not. The only thing Ballard really lacks is the confidence of this coaching staff. Does anyone truly believe he would get a top 4 chance no matter who stays and who goes? It certainly does not look that way at this point. Again, I am totally okay with that as long as they trade him and not waste cap space on a guy the coaching staff refuses to use properly. I agree the Sedins were brutal. I said that about all the forwards for the last few games. Like the benefits Ehrhoff gets from playing on the Sedins unit he also got the un-benefits from playing on their unit. Bieksa unfortunately only gets the benefits from playing with good players but when its bad play its all Bieksa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbllpp Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Bieksa was not the best player in this series for the Canucks. Not even close actually. The best dman? Perhaps. But not the best player. Burrows/Kesler are the only guys I'd put ahead of Bieksa/Hamhuis. I am curious who you'd put when you say not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 you dont blame Ehrhoff as much as the Sedins. Good that makes two of us. But you certainly are quick to blame Bieksa. Thats the difference. But forget about defense. What about the offense Ehrhoff is supposed to bring? PP? And Keith is not overated. He showed why hes a Norris winner because he has the ability to take over a game. Something Ehrhoff has rarely if ever shown he can do. Where did I blame Bieksa? I blamed the entire defense. I simply suggested that it was not a Bieksa was perfect and all other D sucked scenario. There was more than enough suck to go around this series - including Bieksa at points. I don't think Ehrhoff is as good overall as Duncan Keith, but he is close enough. Where are we going to find another Duncan Keith for 5 million per year? Nowhere. 5 million for Ehrhoff is fair and he adds a lot to the complexion of the D on this team. Keith also showed how all you have to do is hit him and he becomes a cowering pansy. At least Ehrhoff is willing to take a hit to make a play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
لني Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 i like Bieksa, i think he has been playing really well lately, in Game 7 vs the Hawks he was making good shutdown plays on Toews, sharp, and Kane. In game 5 he beat the piss out of Stalberg standing up for his team mate, showing that the Canucks weren't dead in the game. He hasn't made stupid plays. In game 6 he played like 37 minutes, and was the best d-man that night. I understand Bieksa was a bit of a plug a while ago, but really i have seen worse d-men than him. I'm a fan of Juice. Im just wondering why people dislike him so much? Its all about expectations. Just like why some people hate Luongo. Though luongos a bit more expected as he is considered elite. He made some mistakes this series. Everyone did. Hes just under the microscope as hes been the whipping boy for what is ultimately piss poor team play. If you look at Bieksas career he has shown he can put up 40+ points no problem. He can play shut down he can fight hit. Hes an all rounder. Not really awesome at one thing but provides a lot of flexibility. Did you notice a difference between Stahlbergs play before and after his filling in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 BIEKSAAAAAAAAAAAAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Burrows/Kesler are the only guys I'd put ahead of Bieksa/Hamhuis. I am curious who you'd put when you say not even close. Over the series as a whole? I would put Kesler a mile ahead of anyone else. He may not have scored but he not only played his heart out, he carried other guys in doing so. He was the best player hands down. What I meant by my comment was: Kesler >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bieksa or anyone else in this series. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Whether it is one guy or ten between Bieksa and Kesler, Bieksa was not even close to being the best player on this team in this series. Does that clarify my point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
لني Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Over the series as a whole? I would put Kesler a mile ahead of anyone else. He may not have scored but he not only played his heart out, he carried other guys in doing so. He was the best player hands down. What I meant by my comment was: Kesler >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bieksa or anyone else in this series. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Whether it is one guy or ten between Bieksa and Kesler, Bieksa was not even close to being the best player on this team in this series. Does that clarify my point? Kesler was also brutal on D in games 4&5 in particular. Not really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.. but since you cant talk about how much better Ehrhoff and Ballard and Salo are Im not surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoLuckCanuck Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Series is over. Let's move on like the Canucks and go one game at a time. No need to whine about victory. A win's a win, and if you haven't noticed, the Canucks finally gutted the Blackhawks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 You nerd it's playful banter not animosity. If you're panties are that bunched then I really don't give a damn but hopefully you can turn that frown upside down. And my point isn't that his talent is wasted rather that he hasn't shown what he should be with what he's been given. He'll be a good top 4 on a team without as much depth as this team has but he doesn't stack up with this teams top 4. Teams like Phoenix and Florida however he looked very good. Ehrhoff bobbled the puck and a lot of misplays and Edler stopped hitting for 2-3 games which quite frankly coupled with his shot is his bread and butter. Can't fault him for D zone coverage because that aspect of his game isn't his strong suit. Neither of those 2 things had anything to do with the Sedins. Neither of these 2 things have anything to do with Bieksa either. Bottom line we can pick and choose lots of things individually but this team wavered because of more than just single players failure. Why would you think it bothered me that you called me a nerd? All I said was that it must make you feel better..... I could care less what people call me. I think any of our other D would be hard pressed to provide more than Ballard did if given the limited opportunity he was this season. Any Dman who can play 11 minutes in a must win game and dish a momentum changing type hit and be part of a shift like that one with the 3rd line deserves a bit of credit for making lemonade out of lemons - especially after being a healthy scratch for two vastly inferior players the past two games. Maybe your expectations are a bit high on what exactly Ballard should be showing with his limited opportunity. Your last line is my entire point. The WHOLE TEAM - including Bieksa - needs to play better. Bottom line. They did in game 7....all of them.....not just Bieksa on D. In my opinion, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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