Baggins Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Statisticians don't take into account the quality of chances that arise from these turnovers. Ehrhoff could "giveaway" the puck by attempting a pass from the offensive blueline that ends up on a forwards stick who simply dumps the puck out. This same "giveaway" could be Bieksa trying a stretch pass which gets picked off and leads to a breakaway against our goalie. The stats are very misleading, Bieksa has been brutal for us defensively in the early goings of the season but I haven't watched enough Sabre hockey to comment on Ehrhoff's play. I could imagine many of these turnovers leading to high quality chances, but surely he hasn't has as many brain-farts as Bieksa has earlier on in the season. Only recently has Bieksa really started to start playing well defensively. Quite the assumption you're making: Bieksa's giveaways are worse than Ehrhoffs even if I haven't seen the Buffalo games. You're treading into Canucklelion's fantasy realm with that gem. Here's something to consider: Bieksa typically plays against the best offensive fowards in the game. Ehrhoff typically doesn't. You'd actually kind of expect Bieksa to have more turnovers and a worse +/- than Ehrhoff considering who he plays against. Yet he oddly doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
لني Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Statisticians don't take into account the quality of chances that arise from these turnovers. Ehrhoff could "giveaway" the puck by attempting a pass from the offensive blueline that ends up on a forwards stick who simply dumps the puck out. This same "giveaway" could be Bieksa trying a stretch pass which gets picked off and leads to a breakaway against our goalie. The stats are very misleading, Bieksa has been brutal for us defensively in the early goings of the season but I haven't watched enough Sabre hockey to comment on Ehrhoff's play. I could imagine many of these turnovers leading to high quality chances, but surely he hasn't has as many brain-farts as Bieksa has earlier on in the season. Only recently has Bieksa really started to start playing well defensively. Alternatively Bieksa could make a play at the oppositions blue line and the opposing forwards merely dumps it out, and Bieksa gets charged with a giveaway. Meanwhile Ehrhoff gets stripped of the puck in front of the nucks net resulting in a goal and gets charged with a give away. See how that works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sameer666 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Quite the assumption you're making: Bieksa's giveaways are worse than Ehrhoffs even if I haven't seen the Buffalo games. You're treading into Canucklelion's fantasy realm with that gem. Here's something to consider: Bieksa typically plays against the best offensive fowards in the game. Ehrhoff typically doesn't. You'd actually kind of expect Bieksa to have more turnovers and a worse +/- than Ehrhoff considering who he plays against. Yet he oddly doesn't. I know we are on the same team here, but apparently Ehrhoff has been a top-pairing dman logging big minutes in Buffalo assigned to top-lines. Who would of thunk it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sameer666 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Statisticians don't take into account the quality of chances that arise from these turnovers. Ehrhoff could "giveaway" the puck by attempting a pass from the offensive blueline that ends up on a forwards stick who simply dumps the puck out. This same "giveaway" could be Bieksa trying a stretch pass which gets picked off and leads to a breakaway against our goalie. The stats are very misleading, Bieksa has been brutal for us defensively in the early goings of the season but I haven't watched enough Sabre hockey to comment on Ehrhoff's play. I could imagine many of these turnovers leading to high quality chances, but surely he hasn't has as many brain-farts as Bieksa has earlier on in the season. Only recently has Bieksa really started to start playing well defensively. You really took away a lot of your validity when you started by saying you haven't watched enough Buffalo hockey to comment on Ehrhoff, but then went on to assume his turnovers are not as bad as Bieksa's. P.S. Im not a meteorologist but it's probably going to be sunny all-week in Vancouver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANUCKLELION Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 I know we are on the same team here, but apparently Ehrhoff has been a top-pairing dman logging big minutes in Buffalo assigned to top-lines. Who would of thunk it? If you rely, as you do on +/- stats to rate Dmen, Ehrhoff's career +/- is infinitely greater than the career minus +/- player Bxa. lol So if you think Bxa could play a shut down role then the stats indicate the Hoff would be infinitely better in that role. lol Stats are for losers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sameer666 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 If you rely, as you do on +/- stats to rate Dmen, Ehrhoff's career +/- is infinitely greater than the career minus +/- player Bxa. lol So if you think Bxa could play a shut down role then the stats indicate the Hoff would be infinitely better in that role. lol Stats are for losers. First of all, I don't rely on +/-. I stated a bunch of defensive categories (goals, assists, +/-, missed shots, giveaways, takeaways, hits, blocked shots). Second of all, dude how do you not see the flaw in your arguments? You just said yourself stats are for losers, yet I have heard you whine about Bieksa's +/- all through this thread. Lastly, stop going on about their career +/-, how they played over their career is not indicative of how they have recently played. Dude, for the last time, there is NOTHING wrong with being a Bieksa hater. Just learn how to argue your point with logic man. Have you never taken a college level Critical Thinking course? Or learned in any way to argue with logic? Your arguments are full of fallacies and bad structure, argue your point properly if you want it to come across. Until you do that your just making yourself look like a tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANUCKLELION Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 First of all, I don't rely on +/-. I stated a bunch of defensive categories (goals, assists, +/-, missed shots, giveaways, takeaways, hits, blocked shots). Second of all, dude how do you not see the flaw in your arguments? You just said yourself stats are for losers, yet I have heard you whine about Bieksa's +/- all through this thread. Lastly, stop going on about their career +/-, how they played over their career is not indicative of how they have recently played. Dude, for the last time, there is NOTHING wrong with being a Bieksa hater. Just learn how to argue your point with logic man. Have you never taken a college level Critical Thinking course? Or learned in any way to argue with logic? Your arguments are full of fallacies and bad structure, argue your point properly if you want it to come across. Until you do that your just making yourself look like a tool. Here is a link to a Canuck fan, but not CDC, poll on a game by game assesment of the players, season to date. It appears there are far fewer Bxa apologists in Vancouver than the half doz. CDCer's like yourself that contantly wear your Bxa love goggles. lol http://blogs.theprovince.com/2011/12/02/canucks-player-ratings-for-dec-1-vs-nashville/ Guess who is still the worst rated Dman on the team.... in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sameer666 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Here is a link to a Canuck fan, but not CDC, poll on a game by game assesment of the players, season to date. It appears there are far fewer Bxa apologists in Vancouver than the half doz. CDCer's like yourself that contantly wear your Bxa love goggles. lol http://blogs.theprovince.com/2011/12/02/canucks-player-ratings-for-dec-1-vs-nashville/ Guess who is still the worst rated Dman on the team.... in the real world. Way to avoid anything I said. A poll by Vancouver sports fans? Really? Come on you would have to agree with me, Vancouver Canuck fans aren't the most intelligent hockey minds. I can't believe your trying to dispute hard facts with a poll of fans.... and if you look at my post history, I step up and say something when he's not playing good. Have the balls to step up and admit your wrong. Bieksa has been the better of Ehrhoff through the playoffs and so far this season. If you cannot agree to that, your just making yourself look stupid. There has also been stats in this thread showing without Ehrhoff the powerplay has been just as good this season, and the offense from our D Is actually on pace to be higher than it was last year. Seriously man, learn how to argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedins22 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Holy 460 pages for one post ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANUCKLELION Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Way to avoid anything I said. A poll by Vancouver sports fans? Really? Come on you would have to agree with me, Vancouver Canuck fans aren't the most intelligent hockey minds. I can't believe your trying to dispute hard facts with a poll of fans.... and if you look at my post history, I step up and say something when he's not playing good. Have the balls to step up and admit your wrong. Bieksa has been the better of Ehrhoff through the playoffs and so far this season. If you cannot agree to that, your just making yourself look stupid. There has also been stats in this thread showing without Ehrhoff the powerplay has been just as good this season, and the offense from our D Is actually on pace to be higher than it was last year. Seriously man, learn how to argue. It is probably better to post ball-less than to post brainlessly as you do. The Fact is Bxa has been the most over paid inconsistent , least durable Dman on the Nuck's over the last 6 years, yes and including last year. Oh wait, he has been consistent, a consistent minus player. The younger Ehrhoff, has more talent is bigger, has been consistently a top point getter, and durable Dman. He has out scored, out plussed, out lasted Bxa over their similarly lenghthed careers, all while making millions less. You can take your cherry picked, unsubstantiated facts and go fact yourself . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sameer666 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 It is probably better to post ball-less than to post brainlessly as you do. The Fact is Bxa has been the most over paid inconsistent , least durable Dman on the Nuck's over the last 6 years, yes and including last year. Oh wait, he has been consistent, a consistent minus player. The younger Ehrhoff, has more talent is bigger, has been consistently a top point getter, and durable Dman. He has out scored, out plussed, out lasted Bxa over their similarly lenghthed careers, all while making millions less. You can take your cherry picked, unsubstantiated facts and go fact yourself . Stop saying "the fact is" if your not going to argue in facts and statistics! And why does their careers matter? how does how they performed 2 years ago affect how they are performing right now? Bieksa has outplayed Ehrhoff in every statistical category except assists in the playoffs and this season so far. Blocked shots, hits, missed shots, takeaways, giveaways! That's all that matters, not "past years". And brainlessly? If i post so brainlessly, you should have no problem quoting three things I have said that were brainless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chugmaster41 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Here is a link to a Canuck fan, but not CDC, poll on a game by game assesment of the players, season to date. It appears there are far fewer Bxa apologists in Vancouver than the half doz. CDCer's like yourself that contantly wear your Bxa love goggles. lol http://blogs.theprovince.com/2011/12/02/canucks-player-ratings-for-dec-1-vs-nashville/ Guess who is still the worst rated Dman on the team.... in the real world. since the argument is Bieksa vs Ehroff andnot Bieksa vs Canucks, this poll is irrelavent. Unless you have a fan poll on the play of Sabres d-men? Bieksa had a slow start to the season but he is still doing better than Ehroff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sameer666 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 since the argument is Bieksa vs Ehroff andnot Bieksa vs Canucks, this poll is irrelavent. Unless you have a fan poll on the play of Sabres d-men? Bieksa had a slow start to the season but he is still doing better than Ehroff Yup, and then calls us brainless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANUCKLELION Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Yup, and then calls us brainless since the argument is Bieksa vs Ehroff andnot Bieksa vs Canucks, this poll is irrelavent. Unless you have a fan poll on the play of Sabres d-men? Bieksa had a slow start to the season but he is still doing better than Ehroff Actually, there is no question as to Bxa vs the Hoff, the Hoff is the better Dman, the market proved that! Whether it was worse to overpay Bxa and give him a cap crippling 5 yr NTC vs signing the Hoff for 5.2 for 5 yrs with no NTC, was the argument. I won and the apologists are just sore losers and have resorted to name calling. To Sampy, I say takes one to know one, lol PS the Thread is .. KB, are you really.......... that useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTzuMe Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Actually, there is no question as to Bxa vs the Hoff, the Hoff is the better Dman, the market proved that! Whether it was worse to overpay Bxa and give him a cap crippling 5 yr NTC vs signing the Hoff for 5.2 for 5 yrs with no NTC, was the argument. I won and the apologists are just sore losers and have resorted to name calling. To Sampy, I say takes one to know one, lol PS the Thread is .. KB, are you really.......... that useless. Bieksa never hit the open market, so the market didn't prove anything. "I won." Hahaha. Could you be more of a baby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sameer666 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Actually, there is no question as to Bxa vs the Hoff, the Hoff is the better Dman, the market proved that! Whether it was worse to overpay Bxa and give him a cap crippling 5 yr NTC vs signing the Hoff for 5.2 for 5 yrs with no NTC, was the argument. I won and the apologists are just sore losers and have resorted to name calling. To Sampy, I say takes one to know one, lol PS the Thread is .. KB, are you really.......... that useless. Again, you called me brainless but your proof Ehrhoff is better is a slightly higher contract. Do I really need to give tons of examples of people getting paid more than they deserved ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANUCKLELION Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Bieksa never hit the open market, so the market didn't prove anything. "I won." Hahaha. Could you be more of a baby? He was on the market all Summer thru probably Nov. last season. There were lots of verbal offers but apparently none of them amounted to a bag of pucks, so MG kept him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANUCKLELION Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Again, you called me brainless but your proof Ehrhoff is better is a slightly higher contract. Do I really need to give tons of examples of people getting paid more than they deserved ? Slightly higher? A 40 million $$ contract vs a 23 million $$ deal? Hoff's contract is slightly less than twice as great as Bxa's. do the simple math. Not to mention over his 2 years as a Nuck he eclipsed Bxa's point production, as well as his +/- resultsand in durability, or minutes and games played. Heck even give Bxa his last 3 yrs vs the Hoff's 2 and Bxa doesn't even come close. oops, he did surpass Hoff in sour puss sneers and mindless remarks to the media. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sameer666 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Slightly higher? A 40 million $$ contract vs a 23 million $$ deal? Hoff's contract is slightly less than twice as great as Bxa's. do the simple math. Not to mention over his 2 years as a Nuck he eclipsed Bxa's point production, as well as his +/- resultsand in durability, or minutes and games played. Heck even give Bxa his last 3 yrs vs the Hoff's 2 and Bxa doesn't even come close. oops, he did surpass Hoff in sour puss sneers and mindless remarks to the media. lol First of all, how is his "sour puss sneers and mindless remarks to the media" any different than said comment? Second of all, yes sorry I quoted the salary wrong, but using your logic that the market dictates how much a players actually worth, Bieksa is getting paid 600,000 more on average than Ehrhoff a year. But I don't use this logic, as someones cap hit doesn't dictate their worth, there are lots of examples of players underpaid and overpaid. See what I did there? I noticed i made a mistake and i admitted to it. THIRD, stop making up facts! He was never on the open market! Bieksa has never been a UFA. He was extended in 2007 for three years(2008-2011), and then re-signed before hitting free agency this summer. Fourth, it doesn't matter what Ehrhoff did, it matters what he did recently, and recently Bieksa has been the better player. Bieksa outplayed Ehrhoff through the entire playoffs(AND STOP SAYING EHRHOFF WAS INJURED, HE GOT INJURED AT THE END, AND SO DID BIEKSA!). He has also continued to outplay Ehrhoff so far this year in all categories except assists! MORE takeaways, LESS giveaways(Which is your biggest knock on Bieksa), MORE hits, MORE blocked shots, BETTER +/-. So AGAIN, i challenge you to take my argument apart, piece by piece PROPERLY, stop avoiding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 He was on the market all Summer thru probably Nov. last season. There were lots of verbal offers but apparently none of them amounted to a bag of pucks, so MG kept him. Meanwhile in the real world, MG went to see Bieksa at his home that summer and told him face to face he had no intention of trading him and to ignore all the rumors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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