Kevin Bieksa you are really...

[wallstreetamigo]

Here's for the goofs who would choose Obrien over Bieksa

Defensively the two are the same, offensively Bieksa, physically Bieksa.

Actually, SOB is a lot better defensively at this point. And one fight is your justification?

1 giveaway for SOB. 4 giveaways for Bieksa. Plus, has SOB been totally embarrassed defensively on several plays this young season? Nope, didnt think so.......

10 hits for SOB, 10 hits for Bieksa....the same amount....I wonder who has more ice time? 87.44 min total for Bieksa. 53.34 min total for SOB. 1 fight for SOB. 0 fights for Bieksa. Yep, definitely more physical so far this season....... At least SOB has fought for his team. Hell, even Alberts has! Where has Bieksa been? Oh, ya, he thinks he is Duncan Keith (minus the defensive ability of course) and is above actually doing the dirty work anymore.

The main factor that made SOB better for this team though is 3.75 million vs 1.6 million. Plus, hate him all you want, he plays with passion, something Bieksa has not done or several years now.

Nice try though.....

[sampy]

Actually, SOB is a lot better defensively at this point. And one fight is your justification?

1 giveaway for SOB. 4 giveaways for Bieksa. Plus, has SOB been totally embarrassed defensively on several plays this young season? Nope, didnt think so.......

10 hits for SOB, 10 hits for Bieksa....the same amount....I wonder who has more ice time? 87.44 min total for Bieksa. 53.34 min total for SOB. 1 fight for SOB. 0 fights for Bieksa. Yep, definitely more physical so far this season....... At least SOB has fought for his team. Hell, even Alberts has! Where has Bieksa been? Oh, ya, he thinks he is Duncan Keith (minus the defensive ability of course) and is above actually doing the dirty work anymore.

The main factor that made SOB better for this team though is 3.75 million vs 1.6 million. Plus, hate him all you want, he plays with passion, something Bieksa has not done or several years now.

Nice try though.....

This season is 4 games old so its pretty hard comparing on this years achievements. As a whole, Bieksa is a way better player than Obrien, simply arguing that is funny. Several years?? How many seasons has Bieksa been in the league with 2 of them being killed by injuries.

Its not your money, why do you care? We are not in cap troubles right now and like I said before, Gilman will figure it out. How long is Ballard gone? We just plugged his position with Rome who we are already paying. Ballard's $4.2 is joining Salo's $3.5. Enjoy the depth, its a newer thing for the Canucks.

Thanks for being the goof.

[Trippbe]

Bieksa gets the majority of his points on the PP, as do all D men who play significant PP minutes. As someone else mentioned, 5 on 5 , Willie Mitchell was the leading point getter on the Canucks D last year. And whoever is playing the most with the Sedins 5 on 5 this year will get the most points this year, just as whoever is on the first pairing PP will also lead in PP points.

Bieksa creates very little offense by himself 5 on 5, and he should, after several years, grab another brain cell, take the hint, and at least make a token effort to stay back of the play occasionally.

There's a slight contradiction in your rhetoric, as you claim that Bieksa will get the "majority of his points on the PP, as do all D men who play significant PP minutes," and "whoever is playing the most with the Sedins 5 on 5 this year will get the most points this year".

A simple translation would be: [and I sincerely apologize if i misquote your theories or take them out of context in any way. It would surely be a matter of my miscomprehension and not intentional]

Players who get PP time get the majority of their points from the PP (theoretically logical)

and

Whoever plays consistently with the Sedins 5v5 will get the most points (also seemingly logical)

Yet you portray them both as absolute truths, when it is possible that their resepective D men would not be one in the same.

Case in point, say Erhoff and Edler get the prime PP time. Erhoff and Hamhuis get the majority of 5v5 Sedin time. With your reasoning, both sets of D men will produce someone with the single highest point total. Ah, here in lies the paradox.

All though these circumstances certainly are the main spring boards for high point totals, they are not each both universal truths. That is, although these two situations greatly help, they do not assure.

So, it comes down to, which will carry more weight? Prime PP time? Or Sweet Sweede 5v5 time? (Awesome alliteration)

Of course there is the matter of the individuals who get these benefits unique skill sets, but I would argue that Bieksa has the talent and abilities to, with the boost of Sedin time (right now him and Hamhuis are playing 5v5 with the Sedins while Erhoff and Edler get PP time) to surpass Edler in point totals. Of course this is simply just a theory. A very, very, complex, educated, and meditated one. Only time will prove or falsify.

PS. Bieksa does not create mountains of offence alone, you are correct, but he does create more than the vast majority of NHL defencemen. He plays more like a forward most of the time, which obviously has it's demerits, but it does spark an attack. Hopefully playing with the wise and calm Hamhuis will instil Bieksa with a new approach and defensive responsible mentality. I'm already seeing signs of it in these first few games, but there is always the chance of regression. Or that the "knowledgable fans" of Vancouver will just choose to blindly not see it.

[sampy]

There's a slight contradiction in your rhetoric, as you claim that Bieksa will get the "majority of his points on the PP, as do all D men who play significant PP minutes," and "whoever is playing the most with the Sedins 5 on 5 this year will get the most points this year".

A simple translation would be: [and I sincerely apologize if i misquote your theories or take them out of context in any way. It would surely be a matter of my miscomprehension and not intentional]

Players who get PP time get the majority of their points from the PP (theoretically logical)

and

Whoever plays consistently with the Sedins 5v5 will get the most points (also seemingly logical)

Yet you portray them both as absolute truths, when it is possible that their resepective D men would not be one in the same.

Case in point, say Erhoff and Edler get the prime PP time. Erhoff and Hamhuis get the majority of 5v5 Sedin time. With your reasoning, both sets of D men will produce someone with the single highest point total. Ah, here in lies the paradox.

All though these circumstances certainly are the main spring boards for high point totals, they are not each both universal truths. That is, although these two situations greatly help, they do not assure.

So, it comes down to, which will carry more weight? Prime PP time? Or Sweet Sweede 5v5 time? (Awesome alliteration)

Of course there is the matter of the individuals who get these benefits unique skill sets, but I would argue that Bieksa has the talent and abilities to, with the boost of Sedin time (right now him and Hamhuis are playing 5v5 with the Sedins while Erhoff and Edler get PP time) to surpass Edler in point totals. Of course this is simply just a theory. A very, very, complex, educated, and meditated one. Only time will prove or falsify.

PS. Bieksa does not create mountains of offence alone, you are correct, but he does create more than the vast majority of NHL defencemen. He plays more like a forward most of the time, which obviously has it's demerits, but it does spark an attack. Hopefully playing with the wise and calm Hamhuis will instil Bieksa with a new approach and defensive responsible mentality. I'm already seeing signs of it in these first few games, but there is always the chance of regression. Or that the "knowledgable fans" of Vancouver will just choose to blindly not see it.

Good post. Nobody is calling Bieksa Niedermayer, just that he is a good depth player. Plus he's on the 2nd PP unit, Edler and Ehrhoff are on the 1st. He does make some really nice reads and toe drags it along the blueline the best on our defence.

[wallstreetamigo]

This season is 4 games old so its pretty hard comparing on this years achievements. As a whole, Bieksa is a way better player than Obrien, simply arguing that is funny. Several years?? How many seasons has Bieksa been in the league with 2 of them being killed by injuries.

Its not your money, why do you care? We are not in cap troubles right now and like I said before, Gilman will figure it out. How long is Ballard gone? We just plugged his position with Rome who we are already paying. Ballard's $4.2 is joining Salo's $3.5. Enjoy the depth, its a newer thing for the Canucks.

Thanks for being the goof.

On the first bolded point: So says the guy who is using one ight as the yardstick to measure their toughness and physicality.

SOB made great strides last season and is actually a much safer defensive player than Bieksa is. Overall is Bieksa better? Probably, but not better in the way this team needs. Namely less huge back breaking mistakes and better, more solid defensive play.

Just because the Canucks dont have a cap issue right now does not mean theyf are not going to eventually. How long is Ballard gone for again? As far as I know, no one knows yet. He may not even be gone long enough to place on LTIR. If something has been announced there, then I havent seen it, so correct me if Im wrong.

As for calling me a goof, whatever makes you feel like a big man. You brought up one fight from this season as your evidence about how SOB is so useless, so I countered with the rest of the comparison from this season, which obviously makes your boy look not quite as good as you suggest.

I will not call you a goof though because you have the right to your opinion. Maybe back it up better next time though, especially if you are going to call people names.

EDIT: Oh, and last year, SOB had 42 more hits than Bieksa in 10 more games. Sounds less physical to me. Based on ice time, Bieksa had one hit every 17 minutes or so. SOB had one hit every 10 minutes or so.

The year before, Bieksa had more hits but their hits per minute of ice time were almost identical.

Who does it sound like is actually getting more physical as time goes on?

[Bruce Boudreau]

Bieksa plays his best when he is pissed off and is hitting and willing to fight guys on the other team. I think his role could be as a physical d-man.

But his salary is too much. If he was making 1.75 mil instead of the 3.75 I think people would be more accepting of his play and he could be a good depth guy.

[sampy]

On the first bolded point: So says the guy who is using one ight as the yardstick to measure their toughness and physicality.

SOB made great strides last season and is actually a much safer defensive player than Bieksa is. Overall is Bieksa better? Probably, but not better in the way this team needs. Namely less huge back breaking mistakes and better, more solid defensive play.

Just because the Canucks dont have a cap issue right now does not mean theyf are not going to eventually. How long is Ballard gone for again? As far as I know, no one knows yet. He may not even be gone long enough to place on LTIR. If something has been announced there, then I havent seen it, so correct me if Im wrong.

As for calling me a goof, whatever makes you feel like a big man. You brought up one fight from this season as your evidence about how SOB is so useless, so I countered with the rest of the comparison from this season, which obviously makes your boy look not quite as good as you suggest.

I will not call you a goof though because you have the right to your opinion. Maybe back it up better next time though, especially if you are going to call people names.

MG, AV, and Sedin all disagree with you which is why he was waived, when they could have simlpy got rid of Bieksa and had no cap worries. So, just from having that level of hockey intelligence disagreeing with you should be able to stop any possible argument you have about Obrien being better than Bieksa. Just stop. I put up the 1 fight because they each fought the same guy. We can pull each of their fight logs up if you want. You'll notice Bieksa's winning ratio is a lot better. Although Obrien may have the edge in hugging fights.

[wallstreetamigo]

Bieksa plays his best when he is pissed off and is hitting and willing to fight guys on the other team. I think his role could be as a physical d-man.

But his salary is too much. If he was making 1.75 mil instead of the 3.75 I think people would be more accepting of his play and he could be a good depth guy.

I agree. At 1.75 or 2 million he would be an awesome depth guy. Of course, unless AV were fired, he would never be actually used as the depth guy that he is.

When was the last time he played that way though? It is like he has been neutered.

[sampy]

I agree. At 1.75 or 2 million he would be an awesome depth guy. Of course, unless AV were fired, he would never be actually used as the depth guy that he is.

When was the last time he played that way though? It is like he has been neutered.

He had 5 fights last year. That's not that bad. True, I wish he would fight more as he is pretty good at it. Ballard had 4, Alberts had 3 and Hamhuis only had 1

[wallstreetamigo]

MG, AV, and Sedin all disagree with you which is why he was waived, when they could have simlpy got rid of Bieksa and had no cap worries. So, just from having that level of hockey intelligence disagreeing with you should be able to stop any possible argument you have. I put up the 1 fight because they each fought the same guy. We can pull of each of their fight logs if you want. You'll notice Bieksa's winning ratio is a lot better. Although Obrien may have the edge in hugging fights.

Wow, the old, the team did this so it must be right, argument. Maybe they are right, but they are equally as capable of making mistakes as anyone else that has ever run a hockey team, and people do make mistakes running hockey teams, dont they?

Maybe MG was trying to get rid of Bieksa but couldnt get a decent deal or him. There is no way of knowing, so the fact that you think in such a linear way about it makes it clear you do not understand the complexity of personnel decisions on a professional hockey team. It is never as black and white as it has to be for your argument to work.

The fact that you think fighting is a measure of a players physicality and physical play already disqualified your opinion before my last post.

I was just too polite to insult you by saying it. Since you feel the need to insult my opinion, I will gladly do the same back now though.

EDIT: SOB does have more draws, but you will also notice that SOB has fought more often than Bieksa and has won as many NHL regular season and postseason fights as he has. Questioning SOB in terms of his willingness to stand up for his teammates only makes you look even more foolish. He has a ton of flaws, but that is not one of them.

The fact that their fighting records are not that far off tells me that your argument is ridiculous if you think it points out who the more physical player is.

It is also convenient how you didnt show the OTHER Bieksa/Crombeen fight where Crombeen makes him look like an idiot.

[لني]

Says the guy who is on the hunt for "extemists".

It's good to see your true feeling about Bieksa though. Here I was thinking you were an educated moderate.

Now back to Bieksa.

His salary cap hit is only an issue if it's preventing us from having someone in his place. At this point that has not been an issue, unless of course you know something I don't or have a replacement in mind who name isn't Rome (good for a few games as fill in) or SOB ( not much to say that hasn't been said about his lack of professionalism and comitment)?

If and when Salo comes back and Ballard is back then and only then will that decision have to be made about who stays and who goes.

On the first bolded point: So says the guy who is using one ight as the yardstick to measure their toughness and physicality.

SOB made great strides last season and is actually a much safer defensive player than Bieksa is. Overall is Bieksa better? Probably, but not better in the way this team needs. Namely less huge back breaking mistakes and better, more solid defensive play.

Just because the Canucks dont have a cap issue right now does not mean theyf are not going to eventually. How long is Ballard gone for again? As far as I know, no one knows yet. He may not even be gone long enough to place on LTIR. If something has been announced there, then I havent seen it, so correct me if Im wrong.

As for calling me a goof, whatever makes you feel like a big man. You brought up one fight from this season as your evidence about how SOB is so useless, so I countered with the rest of the comparison from this season, which obviously makes your boy look not quite as good as you suggest.

I will not call you a goof though because you have the right to your opinion. Maybe back it up better next time though, especially if you are going to call people names.

EDIT: Oh, and last year, SOB had 42 more hits than Bieksa in 10 more games. Sounds less physical to me. Based on ice time, Bieksa had one hit every 17 minutes or so. SOB had one hit every 10 minutes or so.

The year before, Bieksa had more hits but their hits per minute of ice time were almost identical.

Who does it sound like is actually getting more physical as time goes on?

[sampy]

Wow, the old, the team did this so it must be right, argument. Maybe they are right, but they are equally as capable of making mistakes as anyone else that has ever run a hockey team, and people do make mistakes running hockey teams, dont they?

Maybe MG was trying to get rid of Bieksa but couldnt get a decent deal or him. There is no way of knowing, so the fact that you think in such a linear way about it makes it clear you do not understand the complexity of personnel decisions on a professional hockey team. It is never as black and white as it has to be for your argument to work.

The fact that you think fighting is a measure of a players physicality and physical play already disqualified your opinion before my last post.

I was just too polite to insult you by saying it. Since you feel the need to insult my opinion, I will gladly do the same back now though.

We waived Obrien where we could have got nothing. In your view, because you think Obrien is better than Bieksa, why do we need to get anything for Bieksa, just waive him. Its a wash. AV and MG could have made a misake but at this point in time, I think they can judge talent better than you and I. The Sedin is because Bieksa is obviously good in the locker room.

[Bruce Boudreau]

I agree. At 1.75 or 2 million he would be an awesome depth guy. Of course, unless AV were fired, he would never be actually used as the depth guy that he is.

When was the last time he played that way though? It is like he has been neutered.

To be fair... he has been trying to hit and play more physical this year unfortunately it has often been over aggressiveness that has led to costly penalties.

If he can somehow channel that emotion and use it at the appropriate times he might just be half effective.

[لني]

We could have waived Bieksa like we did Obrien.

Listening to some on here you'd think he was going to let go for at most a bag of pucks. Which if he was as bad and poorly thought of as some would have you beleive would have been a great deal.

OBrien did himself zero favours in his time here except with some of the fans whom he has a loyal following.

Here's what that "dummy" MG did:

- signed SOB to the minimum he could.

- signed SOB to the shortest term he could.

- cut SOB

- waived SOB

- after clearing waivers he traded SOB

I dunno seems pretty obvious where SOB stood. After getting the absolute minimum he was given a chance to improve and earn his spot in which "sucky and slow " Alberts Aka Ahlberts took from him. Then SOB fired off his mouth yet again.

Now how long will Bieksas value be to the Canucks only time will tell and the decision will be made at that time.

Frankly I could care less if Bieksa gets traded provides it brings value to the team.

We waived Obrien where we could have got nothing. In your view, because you think Obrien is better than Bieksa, why do we need to get anything for Bieksa, just waive him. Its a wash. AV and MG could have made a misake but at this point in time, I think they can judge talent better than you and I. The Sedin is because Bieksa is obviously good in the locker room.

[sampy]

His salary cap hit is only an issue if it's preventing us from having someone in his place. At this point that has not been an issue, unless of course you know something I don't or have a replacement in mind who name isn't Rome (good for a few games as fill in) or SOB ( not much to say that hasn't been said about his lack of professionalism and comitment)?

If and when Salo comes back and Ballard is back then and only then will that decision have to be made about who stays and who goes.

I have heard two views on how the Salary cap works. 1, is the replacement theory which you are suggesting. The other, which I believe to be right, the NHL works on a day by day salary cap, which is why players were going back and forth to Manitoba within days. If they are on LTI we save that against the cap day by day. So right now its a wash because Bieksa replace Salo. But if Ballard now goes off for a bit and we replace him with Rome who is already on the active roster, then the longer he is off, the more we save. So if Ballard or any other major injury happens and accumulates, then when Salo finally comes back, we may have enough to keep Bieksa as well. And come playoff time we have very good depth. Gilman has his way. But like you and I have said, if there is a good trade and it will make this team better, then do it.

[Nuckle_Up]

His salary isn't the real problem, it's just a symptom. Just like seeing him wear the "A" while doing his thing is making me symptomatic.

His problem: He gives up the ice in front of the net WAY too easily. IF you actually watch him play here's what you'll see:

1. 
   
   
2. He skates backward into his zone faster than the opposing puck carrier.
   
3. Then he overcompensates for that by usually dropping to the ice to try to block a shot or a pass, if not, then he just skates too far back and is out of position.
   
4. Then the opposing player usually glides into the prime real estate area in front of the net, completely unobstructed. He does this on almost every rush into our zone. It's painful to watch.
   
5. It throws his D partner who is trying to cover two spots, and it just hangs Lou out to dry.
   

What was he a -3 last game?

If you guys still think Bieksa is a good defenceman, open your eyes, attend a game and actually watch him play.

[لني]

Maybe I was a bit more long winded than needed.

Simply put I don't see Bieksa preventing us from dressing the best team possible at this point.

I have heard two views on how the Salary cap works. 1, is the replacement theory which you are suggesting. The other, which I believe to be right, the NHL works on a day by day salary cap, which is why players were going back and forth to Manitoba within days. If they are on LTI we save that against the cap day by day. So right now its a wash because Bieksa replace Salo. But if Ballard now goes off for a bit and we replace him with Rome who is already on the active roster, then the longer he is off, the more we save. So if Ballard or any other major injury happens and accumulates, then when Salo finally comes back, we may have enough to keep Bieksa as well. And come playoff time we have very good depth. Gilman has his way.

[wallstreetamigo]

To be fair... he has been trying to hit and play more physical this year unfortunately it has often been over aggressiveness that has led to costly penalties.

If he can somehow channel that emotion and use it at the appropriate times he might just be half effective.

Yes he has been trying to pay a bit more like that. Unfortunately, I only consider it to be an actual benefit if he is not putting himself out of position or taking bad penalties while doing so. That means the net benefit right now is pretty much negative.

[wallstreetamigo]

I have heard two views on how the Salary cap works. 1, is the replacement theory which you are suggesting. The other, which I believe to be right, the NHL works on a day by day salary cap, which is why players were going back and forth to Manitoba within days. If they are on LTI we save that against the cap day by day. So right now its a wash because Bieksa replace Salo. But if Ballard now goes off for a bit and we replace him with Rome who is already on the active roster, then the longer he is off, the more we save. So if Ballard or any other major injury happens and accumulates, then when Salo finally comes back, we may have enough to keep Bieksa as well. And come playoff time we have very good depth. Gilman has his way. But like you and I have said, if there is a good trade and it will make this team better, then do it.

I dont believe the LTIR cap relief works the way you are suggesting. As far as I have read, it cannot be accumulated or banked up to be used later. It is either used each day or it is not.

I will try to dig out the section from the CBA tomorrow unless someone can confirm or deny either of us here.

[sampy]

I dont believe the LTIR cap relief works the way you are suggesting. As far as I have read, it cannot be accumulated or banked up to be used later. It is either used each day or it is not.

I will try to dig out the section from the CBA tomorrow unless someone can confirm or deny either of us here.

I am not sure either. I read two posters arguing for both sides the other day. The one poster, and from other things I have read through the media, seemed to suggest it was accumulated day by day (but can't go over the year end cap), which is why they have LTI. With NJ being able to pull up all those players when Rolson got hurt it would lead me to believe that as well. If you could find proof tomorrow that would be helpfull