Kevin Bieksa you are really...

[wallstreetamigo]

I am not sure either. I read two posters arguing for both sides the other day. The one poster, and from other things I have read through the media, seemed to suggest it was accumulated day by day (but can't go over the year end cap), which is why they have LTI. With NJ being able to pull up all those players when Rolson got hurt it would lead me to believe that as well. If you could find proof tomorrow that would be helpfull

I was just reading a thread on another site that was asking about it and like you said, people present both arguments as to how it works, so not much help there.

I will look through the CBA and a few other websites tomorrow and see if I can clarify it for us.

Of course, like with anything to do with the CBA, even clarifying it might not actually clarify it....

[Raging Cookies]

Maybe I was a bit more long winded than needed.

Simply put I don't see Bieksa preventing us from dressing the best team possible at this point.

Really?

I see Bieksa as a complete liability, anchoring down a very good defensemen with the potential to break out offensively.

If someone can honestly show me that his pro's (i can't think of very many), outweigh the cons, well then I'll change my views a little bit.

Until then? In my mind, he's garbage, and has been since his first season. he got cocky, got the contract, no longer thinks he needs to be any better.

Trading him for ANYTHING would add value to this team.

[Hammer79]

Let's look at some numbers from the first four games of the season. There might be some surprises here for some people who have their mind made up that KB is a liability.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2010/new_5_on_5.php?sort=7&section=goals&mingp=&mintoi=&team=VAN&pos=D

Goals For on-ice

KB 2.67

Hamhuis 1.86

Ehrhoff 1.49

Edler 0.75

Ballard 0.00

Alberts 0.00

Goals Against on-ice

Hamhuis 3.72

Bieksa 3.56

Alberts 2.35

Edler 1.50

Ballard 1.47

Ehrhoff 0.74

+/- On-ice/60 mins

Ehrhoff + 0.74

Edler - 0.75

Bieksa -0.89

Ballard -1.47

Hamhuis -1.86

Alberts -2.35

+/- Off/60 mins

Ehrhoff -2.16

Edler -1.07

Bieksa -0.96

Ballard -0.80

Hamhuis -0.47

Alberts -0.43

QualComp

Hamhuis 0.603

Bieksa 0.518

Ballard 0.024

Alberts -0.075

Edler -0.217

Ehrhoff -0.219

On-ice +/- minus off-ice +/- (corsi)

Ehrhoff +2.9

Edler +0.32

Bieksa +0.07

Ballard -0.67

Hamhuis -1.39

Alberts -1.92

Corsi Rating

Ehrhoff +2.90

Edler +0.32

Bieksa +0.07

Ballard -0.67

Hamhuis -1.39

Alberts -1.92

As you can see, statistically KB's been our 3rd best D-man so far this year, and well ahead in the GF/60 category. His Qualcomp (quality of competition) is 2nd behind Hamhuis, meaning that he's lining up against other team's top offensive players. Yes, his GF on ice is less than his GA on ice, but the team's +/- was slightly worse with him off, and the team is getting this rating against generally weaker competition than KB is facing.

Meanwhile, Alberts has been the worst, as expected.

[Canuckaholism]

Let's look at some numbers from the first four games of the season. There might be some surprises here for some people who have their mind made up that KB is a liability.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2010/new_5_on_5.php?sort=7&section=goals&mingp=&mintoi=&team=VAN&pos=D

Goals For on-ice

KB 2.67

Hamhuis 1.86

Ehrhoff 1.49

Edler 0.75

Ballard 0.00

Alberts 0.00

Goals Against on-ice

Hamhuis 3.72

Bieksa 3.56

Alberts 2.35

Edler 1.50

Ballard 1.47

Ehrhoff 0.74

+/- On-ice/60 mins

Ehrhoff + 0.74

Edler - 0.75

Bieksa -0.89

Ballard -1.47

Hamhuis -1.86

Alberts -2.35

+/- Off/60 mins

Ehrhoff -2.16

Edler -1.07

Bieksa -0.96

Ballard -0.80

Hamhuis -0.47

Alberts -0.43

QualComp

Hamhuis 0.603

Bieksa 0.518

Ballard 0.024

Alberts -0.075

Edler -0.217

Ehrhoff -0.219

On-ice +/- minus off-ice +/- (corsi)

Ehrhoff +2.9

Edler +0.32

Bieksa +0.07

Ballard -0.67

Hamhuis -1.39

Alberts -1.92

Corsi Rating

Ehrhoff +2.90

Edler +0.32

Bieksa +0.07

Ballard -0.67

Hamhuis -1.39

Alberts -1.92

As you can see, statistically KB's been our 3rd best D-man so far this year, and well ahead in the GF/60 category. His Qualcomp (quality of competition) is 2nd behind Hamhuis, meaning that he's lining up against other team's top offensive players. Yes, his GF on ice is less than his GA on ice, but the team's +/- was slightly worse with him off, and the team is getting this rating against generally weaker competition than KB is facing.

Meanwhile, Alberts has been the worst, as expected.

You're gonna bring up stats to show how good Bieksa is? Anyone that WATCHES the games and has a brain knows he's a liability. Theres a reason so many people want him traded, they're not hating him just for sh!t and giggles.

[Raging Cookies]

You're gonna bring up stats to show how good Bieksa is? Anyone that WATCHES the games and has a brain knows he's a liability. Theres a reason so many people want him traded, they're not hating him just for sh!t and giggles.

Thank you.

If you think stats tell the story, then the Maple Leafs are going to be the best team in hockey this year.

Anyone who has been watching Bieksa for the PAST 3 YEARS, can tell you how much of a liability he's been.

Maybe we were spoiled by the aggressive, feisty, offensively charged, non-defensively-compromising defensemen that we were shown in Bieksa's first year here, but since that year, and his brand spankin' new 3.75 Million dollar contract. He's been downright awful. Just, awful. Been saying this crap for 3 years now, and only now people seem to get it.

I can bring out the same stats that someone posted on HF, showing just how bad he's been the past couple years, including his grossly inflated goals against average.

[Hammer79]

You're gonna bring up stats to show how good Bieksa is? Anyone that WATCHES the games and has a brain knows he's a liability. Theres a reason so many people want him traded, they're not hating him just for sh!t and giggles.

Anyone that watches the game has their own bias, so the stats paint a more objective picture. Statistically, he hasn't been a liability this season. He may have been a liability in past seasons, but hey, there's something called player development... Remember when the Sedins were second line players for their first few seasons and struggled offensively? KB is just entering his 6th season, with two of them shortened by freak injuries, so really 3.5 seasons worth of games spread out over 5 seasons. The Sedin bro's sixth season is the first one in which they hit the ppg mark, and for the following 3 seasons they did nothing but improve. Not saying that KB is anywhere near as talented as the Sedin's, I'm just trying to put things in perspective. There was quite a bit of negativity from the fan base surrounding the Sedin's too until they got up to the ppg mark consistently and stopped disappearing in the playoffs.

Here's my breakdown on what the corsi stats I quoted mean.

Bieksa is currently 3rd in corsi rating among Canucks D-men, and he was also lining up against tougher competition than the Ehrhoff/Edler pairing, who were #1 and #2 in corsi rating. (Hamhuis/Bieksa lead in Qualcomp) Hamhuis has surprisingly the second worst corsi rating so far among Canucks D-men, but that is mitigated by having lined up against the highest qualcomp. Bieksa's qualcomp was slightly lower, but he has a positive corsi rating... Bieksa's GFon/60mins is 2.67, leading Canucks D-men and 0.81 goals/60 mins ice-time higher than Hamhuis. Yes, Bieksa's GAon/60 mins is the second highest, but the team has a lower +/- when he's off the ice than on, hence the positive corsi rating.

[dragon]

His salary is the issue.

At the moment his salary is a non-issue.

Why?

At the moment, I sure as hell don't wanna see an overpaid idiot on the ice if I am paying to see the games live..

We'd have had room for better player if his salary isn't as high and I would be enjoying the games better....so yea... His salary does matter at the moment

[dragon]

People need to lay off the stats that haven't been developed yet

Statistically salo is better than bieksa

Bieksa -1. Salo +\- 0

From what I've seen so far, bieksa makes bonehead plays, bieksa makes too much money given what I've seen from previous seasons, and bieksa needs to take a dump before the game as he always looks constipated in games

[لني]

It's quite alright if you dislike the guy and if you are unhappy paying money to watch the games while he is playing please feel free to vote with your actions instead snivelling on here.

Like I said at the moment his salary and/or salary cap is not preventing someone better from playing.

Why?

At the moment, I sure as hell don't wanna see an overpaid idiot on the ice if I am paying to see the games live..

We'd have had room for better player if his salary isn't as high and I would be enjoying the games better....so yea... His salary does matter at the moment

[لني]

Nope but as usual you misinterpret stats.

The Maple Leafs stats show that they are one of the better playing teams right now not that they will be the best.

Thank you.

If you think stats tell the story, then the Maple Leafs are going to be the best team in hockey this year.

Anyone who has been watching Bieksa for the PAST 3 YEARS, can tell you how much of a liability he's been.

Maybe we were spoiled by the aggressive, feisty, offensively charged, non-defensively-compromising defensemen that we were shown in Bieksa's first year here, but since that year, and his brand spankin' new 3.75 Million dollar contract. He's been downright awful. Just, awful. Been saying this crap for 3 years now, and only now people seem to get it.

I can bring out the same stats that someone posted on HF, showing just how bad he's been the past couple years, including his grossly inflated goals against average.

[Raging Cookies]

Nope but as usual you misinterpret stats.

The Maple Leafs stats show that they are one of the better playing teams right now not that they will be the best.

As usual? lol. How often do I even post here?

And it doesn't take a stats expert to see that Bieksa is a below average hockey player, especially for a team of our supposed calibre.

Edit: And a Blueline of our alleged depth.

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

You're gonna bring up stats to show how good Bieksa is? Anyone that WATCHES the games and has a brain knows he's a liability. Theres a reason so many people want him traded, they're not hating him just for sh!t and giggles.

No their hating him for emotion and fanatacism.

Plus it's what all the cool kids are doing.

Ever notice that it always has to be someone?

[Kent.S]

The stats show he's our 3rd best but isn't he on the top pairing lol? Just saying.

[sampy]

No their hating him for emotion and fanatacism.

Plus it's what all the cool kids are doing.

Ever notice that it always has to be someone?

I agree, with some fans their always has to be someone. Like everyone has said before; the fact Sedin gave him an 'A' shows he has great lockeroom presence. The fact Gillis never traded him and has in fact said he had never planned on it. And the fact that AV gives him good minutes on the ice, should all be proof enough.

That is a lot of hockey intelligence the naysayers are saying they're smarter than. Favortism and conspiracies are all crap. Everyone is accountable, this isn't Pee Wee hockey. And if you actually watch the game, like the haters claim as they can't come up with anything good, then you would have realized that Hamhuis struggled a lot more than Bieksa last game.

[NightHawkSniper]

The stats show he's our 3rd best but isn't he on the top pairing lol? Just saying.

Maybe because he's on the ice for 30 mins/game? and he's our 3rd best? that speaks for itself, demote him NOW!

[bobopan]

To be fair... he has been trying to hit and play more physical this year unfortunately it has often been over aggressiveness that has led to costly penalties.

If he can somehow channel that emotion and use it at the appropriate times he might just be half effective.

We've been saying that about Bieksa for the past few seasons..

[SuperReverb2]

I agree, with some fans their always has to be someone. Like everyone has said before; the fact Sedin gave him an 'A' shows he has great lockeroom presence. The fact Gillis never traded him and has in fact said he had never planned on it. And the fact that AV gives him good minutes on the ice, should all be proof enough.

That is a lot of hockey intelligence the naysayers are saying they're smarter than. Favortism and conspiracies are all crap. Everyone is accountable, this isn't Pee Wee hockey. And if you actually watch the game, like the haters claim as they can't come up with anything good, then you would have realized that Hamhuis struggled a lot more than Bieksa last game.

Fail!!! Gillis didn't trade him because Salo got hurt and Gillis was stuck with him. Regardless of how great he is in the locker room (and I question that) his locker room presence won't last very long if he keeps playing like he is. The olde saying: "If you are going to talk the talk you need to be able to walk the talk."

Hamhuis? Struggled? Gee I can't understand why. You try playing with Bieksa and see how you play! Grrrr!!!

[wallstreetamigo]

We waived Obrien where we could have got nothing. In your view, because you think Obrien is better than Bieksa, why do we need to get anything for Bieksa, just waive him. Its a wash. AV and MG could have made a misake but at this point in time, I think they can judge talent better than you and I. The Sedin is because Bieksa is obviously good in the locker room.

When did I say SOB was better than Bieksa?

Bieksa is better offensively, SOB is better defensively, and both are (or at least can be) pretty physical, with an edge to SOB because he is actually playing that way now as opposed to Bieksa, who has backed away from that area o his game.

To Lonny Bohonos, I actually am a moderate when it comes to Bieksa. He is not horrible, but he is also not great. When people start saying that he plays more physical and tougher than SOB at this point, I think it is fair to actually set the record straight. Bieksa has not played that way for a few years at least not consistently.

[The Brahma Bull]

Here's for the goofs who would choose Obrien over Bieksa

Obrien vs Crombeen

Bieksa saving Keslers ass agaisnt Crombeen

Defensively the two are the same, offensively Bieksa, physically Bieksa.

That 2nd vid. is why Bieksa has trade value. He is tough as nails and will stick up for teammates.

[wallstreetamigo]

Anyone that watches the game has their own bias, so the stats paint a more objective picture. Statistically, he hasn't been a liability this season. He may have been a liability in past seasons, but hey, there's something called player development... Remember when the Sedins were second line players for their first few seasons and struggled offensively? KB is just entering his 6th season, with two of them shortened by freak injuries, so really 3.5 seasons worth of games spread out over 5 seasons. The Sedin bro's sixth season is the first one in which they hit the ppg mark, and for the following 3 seasons they did nothing but improve. Not saying that KB is anywhere near as talented as the Sedin's, I'm just trying to put things in perspective. There was quite a bit of negativity from the fan base surrounding the Sedin's too until they got up to the ppg mark consistently and stopped disappearing in the playoffs.

Here's my breakdown on what the corsi stats I quoted mean.

Bieksa is currently 3rd in corsi rating among Canucks D-men, and he was also lining up against tougher competition than the Ehrhoff/Edler pairing, who were #1 and #2 in corsi rating. (Hamhuis/Bieksa lead in Qualcomp) Hamhuis has surprisingly the second worst corsi rating so far among Canucks D-men, but that is mitigated by having lined up against the highest qualcomp. Bieksa's qualcomp was slightly lower, but he has a positive corsi rating... Bieksa's GFon/60mins is 2.67, leading Canucks D-men and 0.81 goals/60 mins ice-time higher than Hamhuis. Yes, Bieksa's GAon/60 mins is the second highest, but the team has a lower +/- when he's off the ice than on, hence the positive corsi rating.

Stats are all well and good, but how can you have watched the games and suggest that other Dmen on this team (especially Hamhuis) has been worse than Bieksa?

first of all, the sample size is too small to put any stock in any kind of stats as definitive evidence either for or against any individual player. Watching the games, Bieksa has easily made the most defensive mistakes. Mistakes dont always lead to other teams scoring, but they can change momentum and get the other team going. That has happened with Bieksa a few times already.

All your stats support is what everyone already knows about Bieksa. We score more but also let in more when he is on the ice. I am pretty sure that playing with the Sedins a lot 5 on 5 (who have scored almost all of our points), easily skews those numbers especially in so few games.

Bieksa himself has generated no offense for this team yet. Being on the ice watching others do so is not exactly something he should be getting credit for.