Kevin Bieksa you are really...

[sampy]

Fail!!! Gillis didn't trade him because Salo got hurt and Gillis was stuck with him. Regardless of how great he is in the locker room (and I question that) his locker room presence won't last very long if he keeps playing like he is. The olde saying: "If you are going to talk the talk you need to be able to walk the talk."

Hamhuis? Struggled? Gee I can't understand why. You try playing with Bieksa and see how you play! Grrrr!!!

Even the Canucks media crew commented on how that was Hamhuis's worst game. He's still a good dman, just had an off night. Stuck with Bieksa?? That's absolutely a FAIL. He is not as bad as you are describing and your just being a hater because you are never satisfied, there always has to be someone.

Bieksa is a good NHL dman with potential still. He came into the league late as he wanted to finish his degree (shows intelligence) and has as only played 2 complete season, both of which he put up over 40+ points. He had 2 potential career ending surgeries, both of which he rushed back from to try and help the team out. That was enough in itself hard enough to recover from let alone coming back early for playoff runs. Despite what the haterssay, he is smart and is still getting better. He will find his consistancy once he gets a streak of games together. Bieksa calls it how it is, which is why a lot of hockey intelliegence thinks he has great leadership abilities.

[Sharpshooter]

Let's look at some numbers from the first four games of the season. There might be some surprises here for some people who have their mind made up that KB is a liability.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2010/new_5_on_5.php?sort=7&section=goals&mingp=&mintoi=&team=VAN&pos=D

Goals For on-ice

KB 2.67

Hamhuis 1.86

Ehrhoff 1.49

Edler 0.75

Ballard 0.00

Alberts 0.00

Goals Against on-ice

Hamhuis 3.72

Bieksa 3.56

Alberts 2.35

Edler 1.50

Ballard 1.47

Ehrhoff 0.74

+/- On-ice/60 mins

Ehrhoff + 0.74

Edler - 0.75

Bieksa -0.89

Ballard -1.47

Hamhuis -1.86

Alberts -2.35

+/- Off/60 mins

Ehrhoff -2.16

Edler -1.07

Bieksa -0.96

Ballard -0.80

Hamhuis -0.47

Alberts -0.43

QualComp

Hamhuis 0.603

Bieksa 0.518

Ballard 0.024

Alberts -0.075

Edler -0.217

Ehrhoff -0.219

On-ice +/- minus off-ice +/- (corsi)

Ehrhoff +2.9

Edler +0.32

Bieksa +0.07

Ballard -0.67

Hamhuis -1.39

Alberts -1.92

Corsi Rating

Ehrhoff +2.90

Edler +0.32

Bieksa +0.07

Ballard -0.67

Hamhuis -1.39

Alberts -1.92

As you can see, statistically KB's been our 3rd best D-man so far this year, and well ahead in the GF/60 category. His Qualcomp (quality of competition) is 2nd behind Hamhuis, meaning that he's lining up against other team's top offensive players. Yes, his GF on ice is less than his GA on ice, but the team's +/- was slightly worse with him off, and the team is getting this rating against generally weaker competition than KB is facing.

Meanwhile, Alberts has been the worst, as expected.

STATS!? YOU'RE TALKIN' BOUT STATS!!??

I'd rather talk about practice.

That's the thing...when you show Bieksa bashers that you can reason as to why he's not as bad as their, foaming at the mouth, belief states, by bringing up points of observation from watching him play, they'll come back at you with a statistical argument.

When you provide statistically based reasoning as to why Bieksa isn't all that bad...the bashers will point to their own subjective observational observations and deductions....

You can't win!

[sampy]

Stats are all well and good, but how can you have watched the games and suggest that other Dmen on this team (especially Hamhuis) has been worse than Bieksa?

Bieksa himself has generated no offense for this team yet. Being on the ice watching others do so is not exactly something he should be getting credit for.

Bieksa has contributed more than Ballard and Alberts so far. Bieksa has been good ofeensively. The Canucks aren't scoring right now, which is why you are not noticing him on the scoresheet and highlight reels. But if you actually watch the game without the negative perpective you will have noticed that he has made a lot of good pinches, created odd man rushes, kept the puck in blueline, and his toedrag on the blueline around the guy or bringing the puck to the middle of the ice along the blueline to open everything up.

[Buttock]

Alright, I will return to the question I asked earlier. Would Bieksa even be an NHL defenseman if he couldn't put up points? The last time I asked this, one Bieksa supporter's best response was that most offensive defensemen probably wouldn't (which is false). Now, how about Shane O'Brien?

Well there's your answer. Bieksa got massively overpaid by Dave Nonis - a year earlier than he needed to - based on the fact that he put up 42 points. And I don't care about his points. Questions of commitment or character aside I will take Shane-O every day. I will also take Mike Weaver, Aaron Rome, Rory Fitzpatrick or any defenseman that can play some good old fashioned simple mistake-free defense on the third pairing for 15 to 20 relatively soft minutes. I don't care how bad he is with the puck, hell I don't even care if he can make a pass.

Since we're not going to trade Bieksa for Weaver (), I would settle for stowing him on the third pairing for now. But good grief get him away from guys like Anze Kopitar who will expose him for the tool he is time after time.

[SuperReverb2]

Even the Canucks media crew commented on how that was Hamhuis's worst game. He's still a good dman, just had an off night. Stuck with Bieksa?? That's absolutely a FAIL. He is not as bad as you are describing and your just being a hater because you are never satisfied, there always has to be someone.

Bieksa is a good NHL dman with potential still. He came into the league late as he wanted to finish his degree (shows intelligence) and has as only played 2 complete season, both of which he put up over 40+ points. He had 2 potential career ending surgeries, both of which he rushed back from to try and help the team out. That was enough in itself hard enough to recover from let alone coming back early for playoff runs. Despite what the haterssay, he is smart and is still getting better. He will find his consistancy once he gets a streak of games together. Bieksa calls it how it is, which is why a lot of hockey intelliegence thinks he has great leadership abilities.

Mmmmmmm. Bieksa is smart and is still getting better? Mmmmmmmm. Bieksa's has been on a slippery slope DOWNHILL for the past two years thus all the trade rumors this past summer. He will find his consistancy? Mmmmmmmmmmm. Better check back over his career because he has had never had any consistancy thus the reason there is a such a love/hate thing with him. When he pinches and helps he's great, but when you gets caught out of position (more often than not these days) he's horrid and he hurts the team. Mmmmmmmmm

[sampy]

Alright, I will return to the question I asked earlier. Would Bieksa even be an NHL defenseman if he couldn't put up points? The last time I asked this, one Bieksa supporter's best response was that most offensive defensemen probably wouldn't (which is false). Now, how about Shane O'Brien?

Well there's your answer. Bieksa got massively overpaid by Dave Nonis - a year earlier than he needed to - based on the fact that he put up 42 points. And I don't care about his points. Questions of commitment or character aside I will take Shane-O every day. I will also take Mike Weaver, Aaron Rome, Rory Fitzpatrick or any defenseman that can play some good old fashioned simple mistake-free defense on the third pairing for 15 to 20 relatively soft minutes. I don't care how bad he is with the puck, hell I don't even care if he can make a pass.

Since we're not going to trade Bieksa for Weaver (), I would settle for stowing him on the third pairing for now. But good grief get him away from guys like Anze Kopitar who will expose him for the tool he is time after time.

Hahahahaha - Weaver, Rory, Rome, Obrien better than Bieksa???? Hahahaha. That's some serious hate you got if you are that blind. I am definately going to save some of this for quoting.

[Buttock]

Hahahahaha - Weaver, Rory, Rome, Obrien better than Bieksa???? Hahahaha. That's some serious hate you got if you are that blind. I am definately going to save some of this for quoting.

Please do. On THIS team, with Ehrhoff, Edler, Ballard, Hamhuis, not to mention Salo, I have no use for Bieksa's points. Other teams might. We did three years ago. Note that I didn't say "better than," but "I will take." Surely you will admit that those guys are better in their own zone than Bieksa.

Also, it remains to be seen whether he can even still put up the points. The toe drag is nice, and I've said before I like him on the power play (as compared to, say, Mikael Samuelsson). But I am getting pretty sick of him missing the net and I know AV is too.

[wallstreetamigo]

Bieksa has contributed more than Ballard and Alberts so far. Bieksa has been good ofeensively. The Canucks aren't scoring right now, which is why you are not noticing him on the scoresheet and highlight reels. But if you actually watch the game without the negative perpective you will have noticed that he has made a lot of good pinches, created odd man rushes, kept the puck in blueline, and his toedrag on the blueline around the guy or bringing the puck to the middle of the ice along the blueline to open everything up.

I have no negative preconceived notion of Bieksa when I watch the games. If you actually look back, I have posted several times that he has made some good pinches and has made some good reads offensively. Because I criticize his significant weaknesses doesnt mean I am not objective. Are you objective when you cannot admit he has any faults as a player at all? No. So why try to claim others are not objective? At least I can admit the positive with him.

And, wouldnt it be expected that with twice the ice time and constant 5 on 5 duty with the Sedins he would create more than Ballard and Alberts?

If Ballard was used on the top pairing even one of those games, I think we would have seen that gap getting a whole lot closer. Comparing third pairing minutes with the 3rd or 4th forward lines to playing 5 on 5 constantly with the Sedins. Yep, definitely a fair argument there.

[sampy]

Please do. On THIS team, with Ehrhoff, Edler, Ballard, Hamhuis, not to mention Salo, I have no use for Bieksa's points. Other teams might. We did three years ago. Note that I didn't say "better than," but "I will take." Surely you will admit that those guys are better in their own zone than Bieksa.

Also, it remains to be seen whether he can even still put up the points. The toe drag is nice, and I've said before I like him on the power play (as compared to, say, Mikael Samuelsson). But I am getting pretty sick of him missing the net and I know AV is too.

So why not keep everyone and just have a really good defense.

[Buttock]

Because with Bieksa, it's NOT.

I'll repeat the question yet again. Would a KB3 that put up no points be an NHL calibre defender?

[canuckfanfromalberta]

KD can be very effective. I believe he has come into this new season with a fresh head and will do well. He will always take some ? penalties but that is because he plays the game on the edge with his physical style. I would rather see him take penalties for hurting somebody instead of sissy slashing or hooking calls. Overall he will be more of a plus for the team than a negative. Ballard is going to be the guy who doesn't work out in Vancouver. Injuries and the big city lights of a real hockey city will get to him . Actually it has already started.

[Sharpshooter]

Because with Bieksa, it's NOT.

I'll repeat the question yet again. Would a KB3 that put up no points be an NHL calibre defender?

Your rhetorical question has been answered, previously in this thread, with a rhetorically questioned answer.

Go back and check it out.

[Hammer79]

The stats show he's our 3rd best but isn't he on the top pairing lol? Just saying.

KB's qualcomp (quality of competition) is second among Canucks D-men, just behind Hamhuis. Ehrhoff and Edler have the best Corsi ratings atm and that pairing may have the most ice-time per game of the 3 D pairings, but they are also facing the weakest qualcomp of the 3 defensive pairings. If they don't put up corsi good ratings against relatively weaker line match-ups, then they aren't doing it right.

Stats are all well and good' date=' but how can you have watched the games and suggest that other Dmen on this team (especially Hamhuis) has been worse than Bieksa?[/quote']

I didn't think that Hamhuis looked that great last game, especially on that 2 on 2. The bandwagon was all over blaming KB on that one for not stopping the pass, but come on, what a weak poke check attempt by Hamhuis. Why wasn't he covering his man on the side of the net? Oh well, like AV said, two good forwards beat our two good D-men. (qualcomp anyone )

I'm not saying you can project this out over an 82 game season, just saying that right now, KB has the 3rd best corsi rating facing the 2nd highest quality of competition.

The Sedin brothers make other teams top pairing D look silly on a regular basis. It stands to reason that the top lines of other teams are going to be harder to defend against. If you didn't have tunnel vision w.r.t. KB, you'd see that Hamhuis is also making mistakes out there. Edler and Ehrhoff have been solid, but you'd expect that they'd be able to shut down other team's 3rd & 4th lines without much difficulty.

Hamhuis' GAon/60 mins is actually 0.16 higher than KB's right now, and his GFon/60 mins is 0.81 below KB's, almost a full goal per 60 mins of ice time. But again, this pairing has been matched against the highest qualcomp. KB's +/- on/60 mins has been slightly better than his +/- off/60 mins, meaning that the team does slightly better in the +/- dept with him on the ice than off. This is why his corsi rating is positive atm.

Stats? That sounds like reading... and books.... why bother when people 'know' intuitively, from the gut, that KB is a liability.

[sampy]

KB's qualcomp (quality of competition) is second among Canucks D-men, just behind Hamhuis. Ehrhoff and Edler have the best Corsi ratings atm and that pairing may have the most ice-time per game of the 3 D pairings, but they are also facing the weakest qualcomp of the 3 defensive pairings. If they don't put up corsi good ratings against relatively weaker line match-ups, then they aren't doing it right.

I didn't think that Hamhuis looked that great last game, especially on that 2 on 2. The bandwagon was all over blaming KB on that one for not stopping the pass, but come on, what a weak poke check attempt by Hamhuis. Why wasn't he covering his man on the side of the net? Oh well, like AV said, two good forwards beat our two good D-men. (qualcomp anyone )

I'm not saying you can project this out over an 82 game season, just saying that right now, KB has the 3rd best corsi rating facing the 2nd highest quality of competition.

The Sedin brothers make other teams top pairing D look silly on a regular basis. It stands to reason that the top lines of other teams are going to be harder to defend against. If you didn't have tunnel vision w.r.t. KB, you'd see that Hamhuis is also making mistakes out there. Edler and Ehrhoff have been solid, but you'd expect that they'd be able to shut down other team's 3rd & 4th lines without much difficulty.

Hamhuis' GAon/60 mins is actually 0.16 higher than KB's right now, and his GFon/60 mins is 0.81 below KB's, almost a full goal per 60 mins of ice time. But again, this pairing has been matched against the highest qualcomp. KB's +/- on/60 mins has been slightly better than his +/- off/60 mins, meaning that the team does slightly better in the +/- dept with him on the ice than off. This is why his corsi rating is positive atm.

Stats? That sounds like reading... and books.... why bother when people 'know' intuitively, from the gut, that KB is a liability.

+1. Realy good post and well thought out with a good explanation.

[Sharpshooter]

Stats? That sounds like reading... and books.... why bother when people 'know' intuitively, from the gut, that KB is a liability.

MEET

[sampy]

Because with Bieksa, it's NOT.

I'll repeat the question yet again. Would a KB3 that put up no points be an NHL calibre defender?

But he does put up points. So how can you ask that question. Would Gretzky be an NHL calibre forward if he didn't put up points. See what I did there.

[Hockey Fever]

The reason we get a hate on for KB is because he's in every highlight package of the opposing team. Edler's been their a lot lately as well, they really have to smarten up and get their heads screwed on straight .

[Sharpshooter]

What's really weird is that I replied to Hammer79, 10 minutes ago, and Sampy replied 8 mintues ago...yet, Sampy's post is above mine....hmm...just what in the blue blazes of hell is going on around here? Has there been a rip in the fabric of space and time?! A rip!? Oh well, it's probably Bieksa's fault anyway.

Edit - *Gasp* Now Sampy has mysteriously leapt ahead of me in time! It's a conspiracy!

Damn you Bieksa!!!!!!!

[Buttock]

But he does put up points. So how can you ask that question. Would Gretzky be an NHL calibre forward if he didn't put up points. See what I did there.

THANKS FOR NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTION.

[لني]

The reason we get a hate on for KB is because he's in every highlight package of the opposing team. Edler's been their a lot lately as well, they really have to smarten up and get their heads screwed on straight .

Not really.

The reason we are not winning is we are not scoring. We are averaging under 2 goals a game if I'm not mistaken.

Being that our style of play is offense first and not a defense first ala the Devils it stands to reason we are not playing up to our standards.