Prince George RCMP Taser an 11 Year Old Boy - Update Post #74 -Report Issued

[OgS.MVP]

The question is could the officer have subdued the boy without reasonable risk of injury to himself by any other means? Such as by using his baton. Would that be better for the kid than the taser? Maybe, maybe not. Ride the lightning or take a few shots with a baton. Either way the kids going down.

If the officer tried to aprehend him without using the taser and the kid had gotten in a lucky shot with the knife everyone would be asking "Why didnt he just tase the crazy kid? He knew he was armed?" Sometimes the cops cant win.

[Navyblue]

Wow some of you people are seriously retarded.

THIS IS A CHILD

TASERS HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO CAUSE DEATH TO SMALLER INDIVIDUALS

FFS!

[Bertuzzi Babe]

I live in Prince George and the RCMP here is often under criticism, and it's good to see it's getting more attention. It's pretty bad throughout northern B.C., as witnessed by an example such as this, in case anyone is interested.

if you're interested in hearing more then find the part 2 and up on youtube.

[lateralus]

To confirm when the police went to the home to get the boy he didn't have a knife with at that time?

[silverpig]

I don't necessarily have an issue with the taser itself, but the YVR incident showed improper use. Tasing a guy multiple times when he's already down is excessive. A single shot in the right situation is probably okay and usually better than the alternatives.

I'm 6'3" 195, and if there was an 11 year old in here right now, yeah I could take him. If it was an 11 year old with a knife, I'd be swinging my chair.

[Donky]

I disagree.

As the Braidwood Inquiry noted a Taser is not a device to administer punishment.

[taxi]

It was not used to administer punishment. It was used to apprehend. Big difference. If the child had a gun and had just shot someone what would be your action?

What if the child was nearly as large as the officer. I've seen many female officers who nearly always require backup from real officers...

[Donky]

Here were incidents involving the Prince George RCMP that concerned the BCCLA as noted in the report SMALL TOWN JUSTICE - A report on the RCMP in Northern and Rural British Columbia:

Judge David Ramsay sex assaults (2002)

10 officers accused of sexually assaulting girls, investigation fails due to RCMP delays.

A provincial court judge in Prince George was accused and convicted of sexually assaulting underage aboriginal girls in the community. As part of the RCMP investigation, a number of allegations were made against local RCMP officers by the involved girls and their social workers. No RCMP officer was ever arrested or charged or disciplined for conduct arising from this investigation; however, one officer was suspended and then fully reinstated. A code of conduct investigation into allegations against ten different RCMP officers was never concluded due to limitation period issues and delays in the RCMP self-investigation that stretched over more than two years.

The death of Clayton Alvin Willey (2003)

Hog tied man Tasered repeatedly and dropped from SUV, later dies. Investigation finds no misconduct.

The Prince George RCMP investigated and closed their file around the death of Clayton Alvin Willey finding no wrongdoing. When the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs and the BCCLA held a press conference to demand the release of the video in that case, the RCMP reviewed the tape of a hogtied man being Tasered multiple times. He was also allegedly dragged out the back door of an RCMP SUV while hog tied and allowed to drop full force to the pavement. The RCMP re-opened their code of conduct investigation against the involved officers as a result. The second code of conduct investigation report is due out any day now, but has not been released at the time this report has gone to press.

J.A.L. (2006)

Supervisor and officer found by judge to have destroyed video of incident. No discipline.

A man accused of sexual assault said that the RCMP in Prince George Tasered him more than twenty times while he was in jail. Provincial Court Judge Michael Brecknell ultimately made the finding of fact that two officers, including a supervisor, within Prince George RCMP took active steps to destroy or conceal the cell block surveillance footage of the incident. “This was not a ‘simple mistake’”, wrote the Judge. Neither officer involved in destroying this videotape was reprimanded.

J.A. (2010)

RCMP decline independent investigation of serious allegations. Refuse to confirm or deny that the force provided intentionally inaccurate information to watchdog group to influence media.

The RCMP detachment head, on reviewing videotape of an arrest of an aboriginal woman, J.A., ordered a code of conduct investigation into the behaviour of the involved officers in September, 2010. Following the announcement of the investigation, the involved woman then told the CBC that the officers involved had sexually assaulted her.

The BCCLA and the Carrier Sekani Tribal Council called for an independent investigation of all of the issues given the history of the Prince George detachment in self investigation, public awareness and concern about the Ramsay file, and the public nature of the very serious allegations, for the protection both of the involved officers and the accuser.

The RCMP in Prince George declined to invite another detachment to conduct the investigation and on learning that the BCCLA was going to issue a press release expressing concern about the lack of independence of the investigation, sent an e-mail message to the BCCLA that said that the RCMP detachment head in Prince George, Brenda Butterworth-Carr met with aboriginal leadership concerning the matter on September 26, 2010. Days after the BCCLA adjusted its press release and media interviews to reflect the new information, the BCCLA received information from local aboriginal leadership that indicated that no meeting had taken place.

Since then, the BCCLA has sent four separate emails to their RCMP contact and the head of the detachment in Prince George. Despite multiple replies from the RCMP, the BCCLA cannot get confirmation that the meeting actually ever took place, or whether the RCMP misled the Association with false information.

[Donky]

I'm sure there are a lot of female officers who would disagree with your assessment of their role.

Back on topic, the child and the officer's safety both need to be taken into account. If the cihld was violent at the time of apprehension and swinging a knife around a single shot from a taser doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

This is a case of bad reporting to drum up a story. The newsstory I watched last night went as far as to go to the local hockey rink and randomly look at 11 year old kids. Based on that "survey" they concluded that the child was probably short.....worst reporting ever.

[Bertuzzi Babe]

I know I was just taking a free shot to needle BB et al.

[JoshuaGuy]

I live in Prince George and the RCMP here is often under criticism, and it's good to see it's getting more attention. It's pretty bad throughout northern B.C., as witnessed by an example such as this, in case anyone is interested.

if you're interested in hearing more then find the part 2 and up on youtube.

Prince George has colossal problems with crime. In fact it was recently reported as having the highest crime rates per capita in Canada. There are many social factors responsible for this, but one theory here that I've heard is that many RCMP members are moles for gangs, bred as youngsters to get into the force so they have inside personnel. There are definitely gang problems here and it is pretty frightening walking most places late at night.

In Houston, 3 hours away from PG there was this sad incident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgAFzSGy8r8

it's sad, because there are good cops out there doing a good job but so many crooked ones and inexperienced, impulsive ones ruining public opinion. We need police officers so bad that we expedite the process for often underqualified, devious people to get on board and then things like this happen.

[JoshuaGuy]

Oh how well you 'know' me, Donky!

There I was, fingers all riled up and ready to type and this little voice said......... "It's a needle job, BB, don't bite, doo-o-o-on't bi-i-ite!" (But then again, it might just have been that nagging voice telling me I need to CLR the coffee pot, who really knows with these things, right? ) Just didn't want to derail the thread........which, ironically, I am doing now!

(I've seen some pretty honkin' huge female RCMP officers, I wouldn't want to mess with them, 11 year old male or not! )

[dank.]

Wow some of you are ridiculuos, who cares if he had a knife or had stabbed someone? Hes still just a boy.

If a trained police officer cant subdue a little boy they should just quit, what a joke.

If an 11 year old came at me with a knife id have no issue shutting him down. Just grab his arm, game over.

Hes. A. Boy. If hes hit puberty different story. Anyone defending this cop needs to give their heads a shake.

[*vInTaGe*]

The question is could the officer have subdued the boy without reasonable risk of injury to himself by any other means? Such as by using his baton. Would that be better for the kid than the taser? Maybe, maybe not. Ride the lightning or take a few shots with a baton. Either way the kids going down.

If the officer tried to aprehend him without using the taser and the kid had gotten in a lucky shot with the knife everyone would be asking "Why didnt he just tase the crazy kid? He knew he was armed?" Sometimes the cops cant win.

[Wetcoaster]

It was not used to administer punishment. It was used to apprehend. Big difference. If the child had a gun and had just shot someone what would be your action?

What if the child was nearly as large as the officer. I've seen many female officers who nearly always require backup from real officers...

[Wetcoaster]

The West Vancouver police investogators are now on the ground in Prince George to investigate the incident. A press conference has been scheduled for 2 pm today.

Prince George, B.C. - Vancouver Police have landed in Prince George, to investigate first hand the RCMP tasering of an 11-year old boy. Sergeant Paul Skelton with the West Vancouver Police Department says "it's early in the investigation. I can just advise you that the investigators from the West Vancouver Police Department arrived in town late afternoon yesterday and they're just starting their investigation at the request of the RCMP." The 11-year old was tasered after allegedly stabbing a male in his 30's, but the RCMP are remaining tight lipped on the details. More is expected to be released this afternoon, at a press conference with West Vancouver Police at 2pm.

http://hqprincegeorge.com/news/local/news/Local/11/04/11/West-Vancouver-Police-Land-in-PG-to-Investigate-Pre-Teen-Tasering

[Wetcoaster]

Paul Sullivan who writes the Urban Compass column for Metro Vancouver edition:

Missed the memo on Tasers

Paul Sullivan

11 April 2011 02:00

Details on the Tasering of an 11-year-old boy at his group home by Prince George RCMP last Thursday are sketchy.

Whoa! Did I say “the Tasering of an 11-year-old boy?” Yup. And the details are sketchy. The boy in question allegedly stabbed a 37-year-old person with a steak knife, and then barricaded himself. I can’t tell from the reports at this point if he still had the knife.

But it wasn’t until he left the house that he was Tasered. The boy’s alleged victim has non-life-threatening injuries, and, as this is written, the condition of the boy isn’t clear. We do know our intrepid Representative for Children and Youth Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafonde is on the case.

Her questions: “Why are we using Tasers on children? Did the police take steps to de-escalate the situation?” Good questions.

How hard can it be to subdue an 11-year-old? Even if he’s spitting like a cornered wolverine, he’s still 11. The RCMP is 138. Advantage RCMP.

In Lakewood, Colo., last week, an eight-year-old boy made international news when he was pepper-sprayed during a violent meltdown. Police chose not to Taser him because it would be too dangerous.

If the RCMP doesn’t know it by now, especially in the wake of the notorious death of Robert Dziekanski at the Vancouver Airport, those things are indeed dangerous. Critics say more than 245 people have died since Tasers were introduced as “non-lethal” alternatives to guns. According to the CBC, 20 of those deaths have occurred in Canada, several of those in B.C. and at least one in Prince George.

But those facts obviously don’t cut a lot of mustard with the RCMP, which apparently can’t bring down an 11-year-old without resorting to its officially authorized thunderbolt. It gets murky when you try to figure out exactly how much voltage ran through the targeted 11-year-old. Depending on the model, it’s anywhere from 1,500 to 50,000 volts. At least as bad as getting zapped by a toaster or an electrical outlet, and anyone who has been blown across the room by sticking a screwdriver where it shouldn’t go can.

By now, we shouldn’t be surprised by violence from children; this kid’s behaviour obviously required caution. What it did not require and will never require, was electrocution, even of the “non-lethal” variety.

The RCMP has changed its guidelines for using Tasers in the wake of the Dziekanski affair. Maybe the officer who Tasered the kid didn’t get the memo, but whatever happened, it’s time to take 11-year-olds out of the line of fire.

Once and for all.

http://www.metronews.ca/vancouver/local/article/829354--missed-the-memo-on-tasers

[IceJava_]

The boy probably deserved it.

Obviously I'm kidding.

[Wetcoaster]

The junior RCMP member (1.5 years on the job) who deployed the CEW has been reassigned to administrative duties as the investigation proceeds.

West Vancouver police spokesman Cpl. Fred Harding told a press conference Monday in Prince George he expects the detectives' report will be made public and could include a recommendation of criminal charges against the officer involved. Harding was unable to say whether the boy was armed at the time or what other measures the officer took to de-escalate the situation.

The junior Prince George RCMP officer who Tasered an 11-year-old ward of the state has been pulled out of circulation while his actions are investigated by an outside police force.

Two detectives from the West Vancouver Police Department arrived in the city Sunday night and are speaking to witnesses and others involved in last Thursday's incident.

West Vancouver police spokesman Cpl. Fred Harding told a press conference Monday in Prince George that the officer in question has 1.5 years' experience and has been reassigned to administrative duties for "procedural reasons."

The incident unfolded last Thursday when Mounties were called out to a report of a stabbing in a rural area outside the city. The 11-year-old boy apparently fled from the home where the stabbing took place, but was discovered by police in a nearby building.

As the boy exited the building, he was jolted with the Taser and taken into custody. Harding was unable to say whether the boy was armed at the time or what other measures the officer took to de-escalate the situation.

The stabbing victim was taken to hospital with non-life-threatening injuries, while the boy, who cannot be charged as he is under the age of 12, was "rendered as uninjured," Harding said, and remains in the care of the Ministry of Children and Family Development.

Police are not releasing the name or address of the facility where the incident took place. Harding said that decision was made in consultation with the MCFD because, "we don't want to stigmatize anybody."

A ministry spokesperson clarified by e-mail that the boy was not in a group home, but rather "a staffed residential resource."

"This is a very different thing. He was in a resource developed for his special needs. There are no other children in the resource, and there are three dedicated staff for him 24 hours" a day.

West Vancouver police Sgt. Paul Skelton, one of two spokesperson sent to Prince George with the two detectives, acknowledged that anytime police investigate other police, there is "always a bit of cynicism, but as police officers we want to do a very good job on this."

The detectives' report, which Harding expects will be made public, could include a recommendation of criminal charges against the officer involved.

Prince George RCMP Supt. Brenda Butterworth-Carr said the circumstances surrounding the incident triggered an internal policy that prompted her to inform the force's B.C. headquarters, which initiated the probe.

"Certainly the age (of the Taser victim) was definitely a factor in that decision," she said.

http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/119636674.html

[Wetcoaster]

The RCMPCC will be monitoring this case as well although they have yet to receive a formal complaint.

An RCMP officer who stunned an 11-year-old boy with a Taser was put on administrative duties Monday and the RCMP public complaints commission announced it will be closely monitoring the case, which is under investigation by an outside police agency.

A spokesman for the commission said Monday that the office had not received an official complaint about the boy's arrest last week, but that his age merits special attention.

"The commission has requested further information surrounding the handling of this incident," Jamie Robertson said about the arrest in a rural community outside Prince George, B.C.

"The commission has previously expressed caution on the use of Tasers against at-risk populations."

West Vancouver police are investigating the incident, and the commission will wait for their report before deciding what follow-up action is required, Robertson said. The commission chairman can choose to initiate an investigation even in the absence of a complaint, he said.

RCMP Supt. Brenda Butterworth-Carr said the force's policy allows for children to be stunned with a Taser in certain circumstances, although she couldn't say what the circumstances were in this case or if there's a minimum age requirement.

"I don't know the specific age per say but certainly in some instances some youths do in fact pose those considerable risks to themselves and others and that's a determination that's made by an individual (officer) at that time."

A report released last year by the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP suggests that up to now, the youngest person to have been jolted by an RCMP Taser was 13 years old.

In the current incident, Mounties have said officers were responding to a 911 call around 5:30 p.m. last Thursday. They found a 37-year-old man had been stabbed, and began a search for an 11-year-old suspect who they located at a neighbouring property.

"Efforts were made to get the individual out of the house, and when he emerged from the home, a conducted energy weapon was deployed by a member," Butterworth-Carr said.

She said the boy was taken to hospital for an assessment. The victim of the stabbing was hospitalized with non-life threatening injuries.

Sgt. Paul Skelton of the West Vancouver Police Department said the officer who is now doing administrative duties has 18 months' experience on the job.

The Criminal Code stipulates that children aged 12 and under cannot be charged with a crime, although they can be arrested.

The province's children's watchdog has confirmed the boy was in government care and was living in a group home and she said Monday she is also leaning toward investigating the police decision to use the shock weapon.

Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond said she would consider the emotional and physical injuries the boy suffered when he was stunned by police.

"This is a very invisible child," Turpel-Lafond said. "This child doesn't necessarily have a voice. There isn't a parent speaking for this child."

Turpel-Lafond said she's not pleased that a child as young as 11 was placed in a group home to begin with, and that a therapeutic foster home may well have been a better arrangement for him. She said she will carefully look at issues such as whether staff at the group home were trained to deal with conflict.

"Is the training, say, call the police and let four officers respond in this fashion?" she asked. "These situations do not just suddenly arise out of the blue. That's one thing I'm quite confident to say."

The boy is back in the care of the Children's Ministry, although Turpel-Lafond wouldn't say if he is another group home.

Children's Ministry spokesman Darren Harbord said staff are co-operating with police during the investigation but he can't comment on the ministry's role until after the probe has been completed.

Skelton said two detectives arrived in Prince George on Sunday and expect to complete their interviews by Tuesday.

He said the department is sensitive to criticism that police are investigating police instead of an independent body conducting such a probe.

"That's the framework that exists in this province and if the solicitor general makes amendments to the Police Act that allows other forms of investigation we'd certainly support that. But at this time, that's what's in play," Skelton said.

"Public support is crucial for us to do our job and we understand that this incident has garnered a lot of emotions in the community of Prince George, the province and nationally as well," he said. "So we're mindful of that and we know our investigation has to be thorough, complete and as well it has to be done in a timely manner to satisfy a lot of questions people are asking."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/west-vancouver-police-investigating-use-of-rcmp-taser-on-11-year-old-boy-119616884.html