Prince George RCMP Taser an 11 Year Old Boy - Update Post #74 -Report Issued

[Denguin]

Need more facts before I can comment on the situation.

There SHOULD have been other ways to deal with it, but I won't speculate until the full story is released.

[reptile87]

1. I think you watch too many movies.

2. Where are these frightening places to walk? I can think of one area of town where I wouldn't go and honestly I have never really had a reason to go there. You're delusional if you don't think that area exists in every town in the world though.

[reptile87]

Lonny Landrud is well-known to be a freakin' nut job with a very vivid imagination who managed to eke out his 15 minutes of fame by having his 'story' posted on YouTube. I live in Quesnel..... believe me, there's no factual or believable basis to anything he says in these videos. You really should have found a better example to use.

[Wetcoaster]

Dr. Zian Tseng, a cardiac electrophysiologist at the University of California in San Francisco who testified as an expert during the Braidwood Inquiry into the CEW deployment and subsequent death of Robert Dziekanski, syas it was lucky the boy was not killed. It is his opinion that children are especially vulnerable.

Prince George, B.C., Mounties are “lucky” they didn’t kill an 11-year-old boy they Tasered after a stabbing, according to a cardiologist who testified at the inquiry into the Taser death of Robert Dziekanski in 2007.

“Children should not be Tasered. They are especially vulnerable,” said Dr. Zian Tseng, a cardiac electrophysiologist at the University of California in San Francisco, who has studied in-custody sudden deaths.

“They were pretty lucky it didn’t cause any cardiac arrhythmia.”

Tseng said the distance between the chest wall and heart is much shorter in small-framed people, increasing the danger.

The boy was accused of stabbing a 37-year-old man in Prince George. The stabbing victim was taken to hospital and released with non-life-threatening injuries. The boy was taken to hospital and has since been released to government care.

“I’d say if he’s OK now, three or four days out, he’s probably fine with minimal (consequences) though there have to be psychological effects,” Tseng told QMI Agency. “When you’re Tasered, it’s intense pain. You’re basically having a seizure.”

West Vancouver police are now investigating and refused to answer where, why the boy was Tasered or whether he was holding a knife at the time, saying they didn’t want to compromise the probe.

“Using a Taser is really to achieve complete submission. It’s hard to argue you couldn’t disarm an 11-year-old boy,” Tseng said.

Tseng said resorting to a Taser should be just one step below using lethal force because it can cause sudden death anytime it’s used.

“When you lower the threshold, it creeps down lower to children and old ladies arguing about a speeding ticket.”

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2011/04/11/17957641.html

[Wetcoaster]

West Vancouver Police have completed their investigation of the incident but it may be some time before the public learns of the circumstances and outcome. The RCMP officer involved remains on administrative duties.

One of the concerns expressed by Commissioner Braidwood during his Inquiry into the death of Robert Dziekanski was the poor quality of training and supervision as well as a lack of clear policy and guidelines in the RCMP that he noted in his report. The response from the RCMP was that they provide good training but those officers simply ignored their training. It seems this is another issue that will need to be examined as well as the West Vancouver Police who said they will be will also review the RCMP's policy on Tasers, as well as the RCMP officer's record and Taser training.

The poor quality of RCMP training and the lack of experienced officers has been noted by a number experts and advocates who have recommended that BC consider returning to a provincial policing model. It has also been recommended that at the very least before BC extends the RCMP policing contract that they be brought under control of provincial authorities and that they adhere to the use of force standards required of BC police officers.

Amnesty International is also expressing concerns over the incident. Alex Neve, Secretary General of Amnesty International Canada says strict guidelines are needed to govern the use of Tasers, especially on children, and that alternative and less dangerous methods of enforcement should be exhausted before the device is used by police.

"Police forces should adopt guidelines which prohibit the use of Tasers against children unless there is an immediate threat to life that cannot be dealt with though lesser means," Neve said Monday. "It's a pretty high standard -it's an immediate threat to life, not an immediate threat of harm or injury.

That's the only circumstance, in our view, police should even consider resorting to a Taser when dealing with a child.

"It needs to be a consistent guideline applied across the country. What we are often faced with in Canada, because we have a multitude of different policing jurisdictions, is different policing forces being subjected to different standards and regulations."

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Tasering+alarms+Amnesty+International/4599820/story.html#ixzz1JKgvid2m

Probe wraps up on Tasering of 11-year-old Prince George boy

But it could be some time before the public learns outcome, police advise

By Sean Sullivan, The Province; With Files From Postmedia April 12, 2011 7:14 AM

West Vancouver police say it may be some time before the public learns why a Prince George RCMP officer used a stun gun on an 11-year-old boy last week.

The West Vancouver Police Department has been called in to investigate Thursday's Tasering after Prince George RCMP responded to an emergency call.

"Our chief constable has made this investigation the top priority of his department," WVPD Sgt. Paul Skelton told The Province on Monday. "Our goal is to determine whether the RCMP officer was justified in using this level of force."

Officers at the scene found a 37-year-old man suffering from stab wounds that he said were caused by the boy. Officers located the child at a nearby home, where he was Tasered.

The boy was taken to hospital but did not suffer physical injuries, Skelton said.

Detectives from West Vancouver began their investigation Sunday and expect to wrap up this afternoon.

Skelton said the detectives will also review the RCMP's policy on Tasers, as well as the RCMP officer's record and Taser training.

The Mountie involved has 18 months' experience on the job. He has been placed on administrative duties, Skelton said.

It's not known why the officer used a Taser on the boy. Skelton said police can't divulge that information during their investigation.

The incident touches on two hot-button issues in B.C.: Taser use, and the practise of police investigating other police, both of which Skelton said are being taken into account.

"We're sensitive to the public perception of police investigating police," Skelton said.

He said the RCMP officers involved are co-operating fully with the detectives.

Meanwhile, Amnesty International Canada weighed in on Monday, saying it is "very troubled" by the incident.

"Police forces should adopt guidelines which prohibit the use of Tasers against children unless there is an immediate threat to life that cannot be dealt with through lesser means," secretary-general Alex Neve said.

Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond, B.C.'s child and youth advocate, is reviewing the case. She said she expects she will launch a formal probe of the case, noting the youth is an aboriginal living in care and among the "most vulnerable" group in B.C.

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Probe+wraps+Tasering+year+Prince+George/4599216/story.html#ixzz1JKeDidH6

[Wetcoaster]

Do you know Lonny personally? Do you discount his story merely because he is an alcoholic? I'm just wondering I mean, he very well could be a nutjob, and I don't live in Quesnel but a couple friends showed me it, it is merely an example of plenty of other alleged misdeeds by police officers. Any devious b*stard can become a cop and make terrible choices at any given time. The cop that shot Ian Bush in Houston made a terrible choice, and what lonny landsrud may not have seen, plenty of other people have. Cops can get away with so many things, they are in priveleged crime scene positions.

i would consider tasering an 11-year old to be a terrible choice.

[Wetcoaster]

In the wake of this incident, BC Solicitor General Shirley Bond has confirmed that the BC government is moving ahead to create the civilian led and civilian staffed agency to investigate police officer involved incidents as recommended by the Davies Commission in 2009 and the Braidwood Inquiry in 2010 — that strongly recommended police stop investigating themselves.

Time to get this moving on this. B.C. Attorney General Mike de Jong announced in June 2010 that the government would create an independent, civilian-led body to investigate injuries or deaths involving municipal police and RCMP. The Independent Investigations Office was scheduled to be up and running by summer 2011.

As it stands now in B.C., when there is a major incident involving a police officer, members from an outside force are called upon to conduct an independent and external investigation - such is the case with the WVPD investigating the circumstances surrounding the local RCMP member's decision to taser the young stabbing suspect on Thursday evening.

However, the new Solicitor-General hopes to have a civilian-led independent investigation office open in the province this year, completing the government's commitment to follow through on recommendations from the Braidwood Inquiry into the tasering death of Robert Dziekanski.

"I think, again," says Bond, "That will also be an important confidence-builder for the people of British Columbia."

http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/19939/3/bc%27s+solicitor-general+awaiting+taser+investigation

[Donky]

Consider what would have happened with the the death of Polish immigrant Robert Dziekanski after he was tasered by RCMP members at Vancouver International Airport but for the video shot by shot Paul Pritchard whoi happened to be on site at the time.

A quick whitewash investigation by police cleared the four officers and the RCMP spokespersons knowingly put out false information to the public as found by Commissioner Braidwood.

Recall that the RCMP seized the Pritchard video (unlawfully I might add) and were refusing to return it. Pritchard had the guts to stand up and demand its return. The RCMP grudgingly complied after Pritchard went public and threatened legal action. Without that video, it was the cooked stories of the four officers buttressed by the police investigating themselves and supported by RCMP spokepersons putting out a BS version of events that would have simply swept the incident under the rug.

[Wetcoaster]

We cannot throw this officer under the bus just because the RCMP has a few shady investigative practices in the past and in completely separate incidents. Are we sure the child was not threatening himself at the time of the tasering? There are a bevy of possible mitigating circumstances that can altar the way this incident will be perceived. How about we wait and see what the independent RCMP detachments investigation reports.

[dragon]

Can anyone tell me how fast a taser is discharged?

I think id use the taser if the kid had a gun or was about to throw his knife at me...

But I don't think it's necessary unless in extreme case say he was about to throw his knife in my face

How come batons or oc spray aren't being used anymore?

There's a reason the duty belt is heavy but I almost never seen RCMP using a baton

[Offensive Threat]

They dont use their batons anymore because a taser is so much easier. It can be fired from a safe distance and is guaranteed to incapacitate while the baton has to be used at close range and can be countered to some extent (Not by an 11 year old but by a full sized adult) and pepper spray can backfire hitting the officer if an arm is raised or the wind blows even.

The original plan as explained to the public was for the taser to only be used when the only other choice is lethal force (shooting the person) but when police saw how easy it was to use the taser that idea of only as an alternative to lethal force got pushed aside and they use it whenever its the easiest option. Which is more often than originally pitched to the public.

[Wetcoaster]

The Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP has now launched a formal investigation into the actions of the RCMP member who deployed the CEW against the the 11 year old child. This investigation will run concurrently with the criminal investigation.

The Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP has launched a probe of the conduct of a Prince George RCMP officer who used a Taser on an 11-year-old boy last week.

Ian McPhail, a lawyer who is the interim chair of the commission, initiated the complaint today into the conduct of the officer involved in the April 7 incident.

"We've been monitoring this case since the day of the incident," said Jamie Robertson, spokesman for the RCMP complaints commission.

He said the commissioner's probe will run parallel to the criminal investigation being conducted by the West Vancouver police department.

Robertson said the RCMP itself has raised issues of caution using a Taser on children because they are considered a medical risk group.

The commission's probe will determine whether the use of force was justified and whether it complied with policies, procedures and training.

The RCMP's policy on the use of a Taser was changed a year ago, after the death of Robert Dziekanski at Vancouver's airport on Oct. 14, 2007 and the subsequent provincial inquiry.

The RCMP can now only use a Taser when there is immediate risk of death or bodily harm to the officer or another individual.

The provincial government inquiry into Dziekanski's death recommended last June that the government establish a civilian-led agency to investigate police-involved deaths and other serious incidents.

The 11-year-old boy was Tasered after police received a 911 call about 5:30 p.m. on April 7, reporting a man had been stabbed.

Police arrived to find a 37-year-old wounded man, who was taken to hospital.

The boy who allegedly stabbed the man was found next door, where the officer deployed his stun gun.

The rookie Mountie, who only had 18 months experience, has been placed on administrative leave.

Once West Vancouver police investigators have wrapped up their investigation, a report will be sent to Crown counsel.

The Crown will decide whether or not a charge is warranted against the officer.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/RCMP+complaints+commission+launches+probe+year+Tasered+Prince+George+Mountie/4617228/story.html#ixzz1JZoncS8P

[Wetcoaster]

It is now being reported that the West Vancouver police have yet to actually interview the RCMP members involved in the Taser incident. Over one week has now passed since the incident.

Knock me over and call me Susan, but does that not seem one of the first things that police officers do when there has been a potential crime committed... interview the suspect and witnesses at the scene?

First the police were not dispatched immediately and now they have been on the ground since Monday (belatedly) and no interviews with the principal or witnesses. No special treatment for their law enforcement brethren, eh?

Was absolutely nothing learned from the death of Robert Dziekanski?????

The civilian led and staffed agency to investigate the police is well past due.

Taser Cops Not Yet Interviewed

VANCOUVER/ AM 980

Charmaine de Silva | Email news tips to charmaine.desilva@corusent.com

4/15/2011

West Vancouver's Police Chief is re-iterating his commitment to thoroughly investigate the tasering of an 11-year-old boy in Prince George last week.

In an open later, Chief Constable Peter Lepine says West Vancouver Police fully support any and all efforts to get to the bottom of what happened, but says his main priority is to make sure his team is focused on conducting a fair, thorough and transparent criminal investigation.

The detachment has come under fire for being slow to send officers to Prince George after the tasering last Thursday.

Lepine also defends the fact the officers involved in the tasering have yet to be interviewed. Saying more work needs to done before those interviews can take place.

http://www.cknw.com/Channels/Reg/NewsLocal/Story.aspx?ID=1403041

Police Investigation, Interviewing and Interrogation 101 - get the suspect and witnesses on the record ASAP before they have a chance to massage their recollections. You can always do follow up interviews.

So the "main priority (of the West Vancouver Police chief) is to make sure his team is focused on conducting a fair, thorough and transparent criminal investigation." I am sure the average citizen would like that to happen during a police investigation into his or her actions.

[Clark Kent]

The question is could the officer have subdued the boy without reasonable risk of injury to himself by any other means? Such as by using his baton. Would that be better for the kid than the taser? Maybe, maybe not. Ride the lightning or take a few shots with a baton. Either way the kids going down.

If the officer tried to aprehend him without using the taser and the kid had gotten in a lucky shot with the knife everyone would be asking "Why didnt he just tase the crazy kid? He knew he was armed?" Sometimes the cops cant win.

[Clark Kent]

I'm just wondering, how many of you people are either police officers, are auxiliary officers, have been on ride alongs, or any other way of actually seeing how police officers work? other then watching movie. Those who are saying the kid was 11, the cop should have been able to handle him by use of different means clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

If the kid had a knife with him, and was threatening to kill himself, with the knife to his throat, and looked like he was about to do it, should the officer have tried to talk him out of it? or should he have acted as quickly as he could to preserve life?

What if the officer was a 5'6 ft, 120 lbs woman (not trying to offend women police officers in anyway), and the kid, who despite being 11, was close to, if not the same size. The officer tries to talk to the kid to calm him down, but the kid runs at her with the knife?

What if the kid has a history of violence, and there is reasonable grounds to believe that he would try to stab the officer?

It is really ignorant to say that because he's 11, a cop is a failure if the officer cannot control him without knowing anything about what actually happened. An 11 year old kid can kill someone the same way a 30 year old person can, and cops know that better then anyone.

[Wetcoaster]

I'm just wondering, how many of you people are either police officers, are auxiliary officers, have been on ride alongs, or any other way of actually seeing how police officers work? other then watching movie. Those who are saying the kid was 11, the cop should have been able to handle him by use of different means clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

If the kid had a knife with him, and was threatening to kill himself, with the knife to his throat, and looked like he was about to do it, should the officer have tried to talk him out of it? or should he have acted as quickly as he could to preserve life?

What if the officer was a 5'6 ft, 120 lbs woman (not trying to offend women police officers in anyway), and the kid, who despite being 11, was close to, if not the same size. The officer tries to talk to the kid to calm him down, but the kid runs at her with the knife?

What if the kid has a history of violence, and there is reasonable grounds to believe that he would try to stab the officer?

It is really ignorant to say that because he's 11, a cop is a failure if the officer cannot control him without knowing anything about what actually happened. An 11 year old kid can kill someone the same way a 30 year old person can, and cops know that better then anyone.

[OgS.MVP]

I'm just wondering, how many of you people are either police officers, are auxiliary officers, have been on ride alongs, or any other way of actually seeing how police officers work? other then watching movie. Those who are saying the kid was 11, the cop should have been able to handle him by use of different means clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

If the kid had a knife with him, and was threatening to kill himself, with the knife to his throat, and looked like he was about to do it, should the officer have tried to talk him out of it? or should he have acted as quickly as he could to preserve life?

What if the officer was a 5'6 ft, 120 lbs woman (not trying to offend women police officers in anyway), and the kid, who despite being 11, was close to, if not the same size. The officer tries to talk to the kid to calm him down, but the kid runs at her with the knife?

What if the kid has a history of violence, and there is reasonable grounds to believe that he would try to stab the officer?

It is really ignorant to say that because he's 11, a cop is a failure if the officer cannot control him without knowing anything about what actually happened. An 11 year old kid can kill someone the same way a 30 year old person can, and cops know that better then anyone.

[Wetcoaster]

I have been on "ride alongs" and have attended an official RCMP camp (was thinking of becoming an RCMP officer at some point), and that's why I believe many here have no idea of just how hard RCMP officer's job is.

I still stand by my belief that RCMP officer's actions were justified.

People judge them in the comfort of their homes, but, when a thief breaks into your appartment, you'll be calling RCMP and begging them to come over.

[dank.]

I'm just wondering, how many of you people are either police officers, are auxiliary officers, have been on ride alongs, or any other way of actually seeing how police officers work? other then watching movie. Those who are saying the kid was 11, the cop should have been able to handle him by use of different means clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

If the kid had a knife with him, and was threatening to kill himself, with the knife to his throat, and looked like he was about to do it, should the officer have tried to talk him out of it? or should he have acted as quickly as he could to preserve life?

What if the officer was a 5'6 ft, 120 lbs woman (not trying to offend women police officers in anyway), and the kid, who despite being 11, was close to, if not the same size. The officer tries to talk to the kid to calm him down, but the kid runs at her with the knife?

What if the kid has a history of violence, and there is reasonable grounds to believe that he would try to stab the officer?

It is really ignorant to say that because he's 11, a cop is a failure if the officer cannot control him without knowing anything about what actually happened. An 11 year old kid can kill someone the same way a 30 year old person can, and cops know that better then anyone.

[Wetcoaster]

Thats a long list of highly unlikely scenarios..

To say that an 11 year old child can kill the same way as a 30 year old is just ridiculous, like seriously?