Disgruntler Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Vignault's supposed team management philosophy has always been rooted in meritocracy. I know, I know, we've all heard the man-love Rome jokes, but some of his stats actually bore out AV's favouritism (at least as seen in a recent thread here... somewhere). But Raymond has clearly shown he's a speedy, decent back-checker who has no nose or stomach for the blue paint. Sure he had a great season a couple of years ago, the same year *most of the team* was on fire, but let's face it: he's a 10-12 goal scorer. So how does this mesh with the meritocracy approach? It just doesn't, and with Higgins getting pushed down to the 4th line today in yet another attempt to find Raymond a home in the top 6, I have to wonder if the constant pandering to this kid is starting to take its toll on the rest of the team. What kind of message is it sending to a guy like Higgins who, while one of (if not the hardest working) members of the team, basically gets punished for someone else's lackluster play. Raymond's like the dude in Full Metal Jacket; maybe the rest of the crew need to give him the bars-of-soap-in-the-pillowcase routine to wake him up, or convince him to move along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostdivision Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I just dont know what it tells the team. Higgins has had a mediocre last two games, but has played consistently well for weeks, he gets two subpar games and is demoted. With raymond he gets months on the 2nd line (and before anyone claims hes great defensively av like any logical fan knows your 2nd line needs to produce points and offense, it is not a defensive line), av demotes him to the 4th for a game, then for no reason goes to the 1st line for 3 games, then the press box 1 for one game, then back to the 2nd...he did a full circle while not producing, and av said again they need raymond to produce offense. What message does this send a player like higgins? The head scratcher is av seems to think raymond is a superstar offensive threat and if he does not get raymond producing offensively were screwed. Not sure what that also tells the rest of our team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocnhockey Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I challenge you to post something positive about this team on your 2nd post, BUT, you can not include, Av, soap, or Raymond...Deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disgruntler Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 I think one of the reasons my first post was a negative, is because that negative erased one of my few positives right now: the AMEX line's effectiveness. Actually really like the 3rd line too. But in the interest of being proactive and not just critical, I would submit the following forward lines for consideration: Sedin / Sedin / Kassian Higgins / Kesler / Booth Burrows / Pahlsson / Hansen Manny / Lappy / Weise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sick Hands Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Thats Alain for ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burrows#1 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I totally aree with you. Since his arrival AV has said that if you play well you will be rewarded with ice time, something along those lines. He abandoned that philosophy with Hodgson for the most part, Ballard in some cases before he lost all of his confidence and was sidelined with this cap-cussion and now AV is going off the board again with this 'Raymond Rescue Mission'... Just seems like a lost cause to me, good first post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bure10fan Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Do you remember how effective raymond was when he came back from his injury. he looked unreal and looked like the player he was 2 years ago. going to the net!!! lasted 7 games He needs to get back there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody9 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I just dont know what it tells the team. Higgins has had a mediocre last two games, but has played consistently well for weeks, he gets two subpar games and is demoted. With raymond he gets months on the 2nd line (and before anyone claims hes great defensively av like any logical fan knows your 2nd line needs to produce points and offense, it is not a defensive line), av demotes him to the 4th for a game, then for no reason goes to the 1st line for 3 games, then the press box 1 for one game, then back to the 2nd...he did a full circle while not producing, and av said again they need raymond to produce offense. What message does this send a player like higgins? The head scratcher is av seems to think raymond is a superstar offensive threat and if he does not get raymond producing offensively were screwed. Not sure what that also tells the rest of our team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raph Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Raymond has always been groomed and given the benefit of the doubt ever since he as been drafted as "the next Bure". All of Vancouver's current and past management have always placed him as their Golden Boy that is going to break out any minute now. He's always been placed higher in the depth chart than he should have. Back in 2008-2009, there was always a constant Hansen vs. Raymond debat on CDC. I always pulled for Hansen and advocated that Raymond should have been sent down to the Moose before reaching his maximum games allowed for waiver eligibility. Of course, the opposite happened since Hansen has always been given the shaft in favour of Raymond, Pyatt, and Bernier until this season. I notice that Vancouver management, no matter who is in charge, has always had an obsession with 2 things. Speedy guys and fighters. We always seem to be looking for the second coming of Pavel Bure or Gino Odjick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Money Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Vignault's supposed team management philosophy has always been rooted in meritocracy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLumme Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 You're all too obsessed with line tweaks at a time when we have nothing to play for, trust, it'll be fine come playoff time. There is a switch that they can hit to turn it on in the playoffs, as long as they haven't busted their collective a$$es trying to get there. Let the coaching staff do their thing, rotate 4 different lines, and enjoy the anticipation for the playoffs. There are only a handful of fanbases that get to do this, appreciate it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raph Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 And yet, under his 'philosophy' the Sedins went from "borderline first liners" to Art Ross winners, Kesler and Burrows went from "career 3rd liners" to two of the premier 2-way forwards in the league, Bieksa went from a 5th-round fringe player to a key defensemen getting Norris votes... AV has been the best team builder and talent developer the Canucks have ever had - bar none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Bang Boogie Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I think one of the reasons my first post was a negative, is because that negative erased one of my few positives right now: the AMEX line's effectiveness. Actually really like the 3rd line too. But in the interest of being proactive and not just critical, I would submit the following forward lines for consideration: Sedin / Sedin / Kassian Higgins / Kesler / Booth Burrows / Pahlsson / Hansen Manny / Lappy / Weise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bur14Kes17 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Of course this Raymond experiment is negative motivation for the team! I played for a coach like this who made decisions that baffled the entire team. Work ethic on field results weren't enough for him because he had his own theories and hunches he wanted to play out. Theres comes a point where the coach wants to be TOO involved and wants everyone to see his hands on the make up of the team instead of letting the players play the way they play best. AV is screwing with the natural chemistry of this team... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Maybe if you all post your phone numbers AV can give you a call and ask your wise and learned advice on how to coach a NHL team and decide line assignments. Otherwise, we could just assume he's trying to get all of our players up to their best level possible, especially in games were our playoff spot isn't in jeopardy, because he realizes people will unfortunately get hurt in the playoff run and we need as many people capable of scoring as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Lesnar Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Hopefully raymond produces so his trade value goes up because I can't handle him on this team anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUPERTKBD Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Of course this Raymond experiment is negative motivation for the team! I played for a coach like this who made decisions that baffled the entire team. Work ethic on field results weren't enough for him because he had his own theories and hunches he wanted to play out. Theres comes a point where the coach wants to be TOO involved and wants everyone to see his hands on the make up of the team instead of letting the players play the way they play best. AV is screwing with the natural chemistry of this team... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disgruntler Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 Hmm, solid feedback, and all good points methinks. Of course we can pull a brain muscle trying to guess what AV, MG or anyone else is thinking, but isn't that the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Money Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Flawed logic. After Bertuzzi left and Morrison got injured, there was absolutely no one else to use as our first line. The Sedin's were default choices as there was no other alternative. Kesler and Burrows got their opportunity because there was also no other alternative. They played 3rd and 4th line until they began showing their prowess in the PK, scoring some short handed goals, shutting down lines, and chipping in points. It started with the Burrows-Kesler-Hansen line (HBK), while they were dubbed the '3rd line' they played more minutes than the 2nd line on most nights. Then eventually they were experimented with Sundin and the Sedins which managed to form quick chemistry. To put it bluntly, Kesler and Burrows earned their way up the depth chart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIBdaQUIB Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I am not a fan of many of AV's decisions but he may be simply playing the hand MG dealt him. Everyone was calling for a proven top 6 power forward at teh trade deadline and MG coudn't land one. Kassain will be one but he is a rookie with very limited NHL play time, hardly a proven commodity and his conditioning is suspect. By losing HOdgson, AV needs to generate offence with what he has...Raymond is the guy MG held on to that has the potential to add that additional offence. He has shown an ability to be a factor though only for brief periods. I think AV sees that the Sedins and Kesler are not going to generate enough offence for the team to succeed and "needs" Raymond to step up. WHether he does or not remains to be seen but so far, he has not shown the style of play that made him successful in the past. I hope with all my heart, Mason finds his stide because right now, this team is offensively challenged and it won't get any easier to score come the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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