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[The Province] Raymond, Malhotra Might Not Fit In Picture Next Season

-Vintage Canuck-

Will we see both of them in a Canucks Uniform?  

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Despite the disparaging remarks and the disrespectful tone I'm afraid the facts speak for themselves.

Mason Raymond was put on that team at the earliest opportunity because our coach obviously knows more about hockey than you ever will. He remained there and WAS one of the best playoff performers.........despite your loitering around rinks since the age of 3.

Mason Raymond has countless scouting testimonies which bare out his qualities. An article quoting these scouts even appeared on these Boards not long ago.

A player travelling at greater speed IS undoubtedly more likely to be hurt in an impact unless you are re writing the laws of physics. Your hockey knowledge, it seems, is not broad enough to inform you that it is not always or even usually the skater with the puck's decision of whether he is going to be hit. Are you sure it wasn't pool you grew up watching from the age of 3?

My opinion of Raymond being hard-nosed in comparison to Sweatt is I'm afraid indisputable.

My opinion on Sweatt choking while slightly unkind, I admit, (I should have said overawed) was I think backed up by the fact he was not brought up again. As I say I like Bill Sweatt and I am sure he will eventually be a good player for the Canucks, unfortunately that call up was just too early imo.

No doubt you will continue to climb the wall in agony at the thought that MR is still a Canuck, while I on the other hand remain happy that if he he is good enough to get the jersey, he'll always have my support.

By the way, your sheep reference? Wrong part of Scotland. I live on a lovely part of the coast in an agricultural area. If you've seen Chariots of Fire, you will have a perfect picture.

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Well, at least you're finally right about a couple of things(will wonders never cease). Yes, the facts do speak for themselves... and the facts are that Raymond has sucked for two straight years now. That's a fact. Another fact is, that yes AV does know more about hockey than I do. And I know, and I would hazzard to guess that 99% of the rest of this site knows more than you do. But imagine that, a former NHL coach of the year knowing more than a long time fan. In saying all that, when Raymond first came up, the team wasn't nearly as good as what it is now and didn't have nearly the depth. Which of course you would know nothing about because you never seen the team play back then. So, please talk about what you know about best, like the intricacy of courting sheep and leave the hockey talk to those of us who know what we're talking about. It's also not unheard of for a coach to be loyal to a player based on potential and showing glimpses of being a useful player. AV also has a very bad habit of playing favorites, hence why Aaaron Rome has been given too much playing time. Also, the coach can only use players that he's provided by management.

So you agree with me. What's this fixation you have with sheep?

Another fact is, that you seem to think that Raymond was one of the top players for the Canucks in the playoffs, which wouldn't be saying a whole lot. But, if he were as good as what you seem to think, with his whopping 1 assist, then why did the coach demote him to the 4th line and say that he wasn't playing good enough or producing enough to play on the first 3 lines. Those were the facts. I guess if the coach knows more than me, then he sure as hell knows more than you, as he did the exact opposite than what you think. Please explain this to us?

It was an experiment, which obviously didn't work as the 2nd line still flopped. Regardless, many agree he was one of our better playoff players.

As for the scouts thoughts on Raymond, I'd be willing to bet that most of the scouting was done on Raymond as he entered the NHL. I would also be willing to bet that all of the scouts weren't exactly sold on Raymond while some might have been. And even the ones who did like him as a player didn't have only positive things to say about Raymond as I'm sure the negatives were there and have only multiplied from then to now.

That could be said of many of the top players. It doesn't detract from their ability. Are you going to get on Kesler's or Burrows' back just because they had a poor season?

Maybe you can't read but I said that Raymond isn't more likely to get hurt even though he skates faster and that's because he shies away from contact of any kind. It's pretty hard to get hurt when you don't initiate contact and shy away and avoid contact at all costs attempted at you. This is why I mentioned Hansen. He skates as fast or almost as fast as Raymond while also being a physical "hard nosed" player. He's more likely to get hurt because of his speed and physicality. So, maybe you should re-try your physics theory. Speed + Contact = a greater risk of injury, where as Speed + NO CONTACT(unless of course you consider him tripping and falling over his own shadow) = less risk of injury.

Every forward player carrying the puck tries to avoid contact where possible. However if you are travelling at Raymond's speed, failure incurs the risk of greater impact and possible injury. Surely even you must realise that.

Not to mention that you've just proved that it's actually field hockey that you've been following because if it was "ice hockey", then you'd know that this is a contact sport and the player with the puck is ALWAYS preparing to get hit , because in case you haven't noticed, which you likely haven't, "ice hockey" is a contact sport. It might not be his decision but last time I checked, he didn't have the right to make that decision. But more often than not, when Raymond's about to be hit, he'll get rid of the puck and chase it so as not to have to take any hits by going into the middle of the ice or high traffic areas.

Who said anything about "preparing?" Stop introducing verbal garbage into a straight forward point, to try and cloud the issue. The rest of the para is biased rubbish. He's a two way player. the object of that is to get the puck from one end to the other "without being hit" thereby taking the offence into the opponents area.

And if everything else didn't prove your idiocy, then you calling Bill Sweatt a choker sure proved it. Choker = to perform badly in a critical situation. Is this really what you think Sweatt did. Were the two games that he got in the early/middle part of the season really that critical? You even admit that he was called up before he was ready and yet you still call him a choker? The young guy had 10-12 minutes to prove himself in his first shot at the NHL level and you call him a choker. You really don't have a clue. Now you're trying to backtrack by saying you may have been too unkind??? No, what it was, was just a blatantly wrong choice of words and a moronic comment which is the only thing that you have shown any consistency about.....well, that and your denial about Raymond playing terribly for the better part of 2 years.

Firstly, they WERE critical to him. It was my opinion it was too early (but you have no time for my opinion) The fact was he was given a chance and while I didn't agree with it, he did not make anything of it.

You are starting to rave my friend, whether it is choked or overawed, they amount to the same thing in my book. When you are in a hole you would do best to stop digging. (more insults and disrespect I see.........are you sure you are an adult?)

And I think that we'll find out soon enough if he's good enough to keep the jersey.

Couldn't care less what part of Scotland you're from as it doesn't seem to help your hockey knowledge, which is all I care about. Maybe you've been inhaling too much dung from all of that agriculture around you and it's affecting your last living brain cell......but maybe that's why you and the sheep get along so well.

More sheep? jeez, are you sure your not dreaming? As for my hockey knowledge, I appreciate your concern however as I pointed out MR is here and playing and looking like getting his contract renewed ..........so maybe it's your own "hockey knowledge" you should worry about.

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Sadly Raymond and Malhotra were not the problem. Yes they played well below expectations, but even if we got rid of them and acquired 2 great bottom-6 players, this team would not be fixed.

The Sedins and Luongo were our only core players who played well in the Finals and even the final stretch of games.

Kesler was brutal. Solution? He'll probably get better next season by having a whole training camp to rest and train up, but he can't play injured during the season again the way he did this year or it'll cost the team another playoff exit.

Burrows was almost invisible. Solution? I'm not sure if there is one. He hasn't been playing well with the Sedins for almost half a year now, looks like the top line needs a changeup and we have plenty of options with Booth, Higgins, Lapierre, Hansen, Kassian and the darkhorse Bitz who have all had great success with the twins.

Booth and Higgins were non-factors. Solution? Play them full-time with Kesler. This line was dominating when together and when Kesler was healthy which is the key, so get Higgins off the 3rd line because our 2nd line scorers need him more. Let them gain some chemistry and they'll be fine.

Edler was terrible. Solution? He'll hopefully gain more experience after a breakout year and play better defensively, but he needs a more physical, defensive partner as opposed to the ageing, slow Sami Salo.

Bieksa was horrible. Solution? I don't think there is one. Unlike the other players, this guy has always had defensive holes in his game and they always get exploited every now and then. Even pairing him with defensive stalwarts like Hamhuis and Mitchell doesn't seem to solve that much.

Hamhuis wasn't that solid. Solution? Get him a more dependant defensive partner and stop him from playing so offensively.

Salo was average. Solution? Get him playing less than 70 games during the season. He plays best at the start of a spurt of games, ie. last years playoffs after returning from injury, last regular season at the start, but fatigue really showed during this playoffs. Injuries are actually his friend because he plays better when returning from them.

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We have 9.3 mil tied up in 3 players that are not playing up to there value. Raymond, Malhotra and Ballard. I like ballard alot but he is not cap friendly considering hes playing the role of a sixth dman. even if mayray returns to form do you really think he is a fit for what we need on this team????

9 mil is alot of dough to free up if we lose these three and replace them with our youth and maybe one top end playmaker ufa for the second line. we need cap space anyway. at what point do we start giving some of our youth more of a chance?

I can see Manny fitting in with a team like edmonton as they really need his leadership with all thise young guys. I can see ballard fitting in there as well. Im not sure who might want Raymond but maybe the islanders??

If we are to improve next year these are the spots i would start with. forget the sentimental value that manny brings.

Put it this way. if we ditch these three and put jensen and shroeder in our lineup (1.5 mil) then arent we almost assured we could land suter? and actually affford it......even if the two youngsters arent quite ready i say we are alot better.

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Bodee, Bodee, Bodee, first off what I agree with you about was that the facts speak for themselves and that the coach of an NHL team knows more about hockey than what you, I and everyone else on this site knows about hockey. And the facts are that Raymond sucks, hasn't been productive for 2 years and even the coach who has given him EVERY opportunity to succeed has had enough of his lack of production. Despite you thinking that he performed well in the playoffs, the coach's comments and Raymond's 1 assist in 5 games speaks volumes. If he was as good as what you thought he was in the playoffs, then why did the coach who has had his back for two disastrous years, finally say enough was enough and demote him because he wasn't playing well enough?

I wasn't the only one who thought he was one of the better players in the playoffs. I don't know why the coach dropped him, maybe to try something new but he brought him back immediately.......what does that tell you?

Scouting is the same for good players and less than mediocre ones like Raymond. They always list both the positive and negatives. Did you just realize this?

I realize that Kesler didn't have as good of a season this year as last but yet again you have proven to not know what you're talking about when you say that Burrows didn't have a good season. Please tell me why you think Burrows had a poor season when his numbers were basically the same or slightly better across the board. Another uneducated comment by Bodee...shocker!

Firstly the report I saw didn't list much at all in the way of negatives, however it was glowing in the positives. We will have to agree to differ on Burrows. If we based everything on points then of course you would be correct but quite honestly he had nowhere near the impact he had last season imo.

The trouble with your disrespect is it shows you up to be a bit naive, despite all your years of "watching" hockey. You can have 2 players with equal points but one can still have more impact on the game in all kinds of ways to the other.

Excuse me??? Every "forward player carrying the puck tries to avoid contact as much as possible". Really, Captain Obvious??? Thanks for the riveting news. And in saying that, does that mean the defensemen try to initiate contact when they have the puck? Or every player who isn't going forward tries to initiate contact? I just can't believe some of the garbage that you write. The difference with Raymond as opposed to others is that they try to avoid contact but aren't afraid of it when it happens, where as Raymond has always been terrified of contact and it affects the way he plays as well as his linemates. That little figure skater is less likely to get hurt just based on the fact that he's as likely to get involved in physical contact as you are of coming up with an intelligent comment or accurate hockey analysis. Like I said, hockey is a contact sport, which you still fail to realize, and Raymond is better off playing in a no contact beer league at 8 rinks on a Tuesday afternoon than he is playing with the Canucks.

We happen to be talking about a forward, try to stick with it or are you getting so worked up that you are losing all reason in your quest to be some kind of "hockey sage" Raymond is afraid of nothing, more disrespect, I hope you don't coach.

As for the rest of your raving none of it is based in reality. You should know that many good players and some great ones don't base their game on being hit or looking for contact without fear of being called afraid. I see Raymond in plenty of contact situations. You on the other hand seem to go into a bias induced trance.

If choked and overawed are the same in your book, then there really is no hope for you. In Canada, choking doesn't mean that because you are thrown to the wolves or are in over your head or are put in a situation that you aren't ready for definitley does not constitute choking. And if you think so, then you're just embarrassing yourself even more.

As for the insults, if you dish them out then you better be damn sure that you can take them too.

Dear me, "it's thrown to the wolves" now. He is 6'-0" and 190 lbs and quick. Many just now are baying for 5'-8" 175lbs Jordan Schroeder to be brought up. I may have thought it was a bit early for Sweatt but he was certainly NOT thrown to the wolves, behave yourself man. He was given a fair chance he could have gone one of two ways.........he was overawed I'm afraid and wasn't called on again. As for insults I'll leave them to you as you need the action.

We shall see if Raymond will be here for long. The only way I see Gillis qualifying Raymond is if he already knows that he can get a late round pick for him(somebody out there might be that desperate and stupid) or he's going to throw him in in a bigger package, possibly for some water bottles and a roll of tape.

Yes? well that was along the lines of what many were saying at the last trade deadline.........how did that go for them/you?

All I can say is it will be interesting. If you look back at my posts I've always said I am happy with the coach's decision (I didn't even mind when Raymond was dropped) but if he comes back in the team I will support him and ALWAYS stand up for him against unfair criticism.

He is quick, brave, tenacious in defence, lightning in attack and hopefully after a good pre season and putting on some more muscle will get his scoring touch back...............if not c'est la vie!

Ps Glad to see you got treatment for that nasty sheep obsession :frantic:

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Bodee, try something new? Can you not read? I told you why the coach dropped him because the coach said in his own words that he wasn't playing well enough to play on the first 3 lines, and it could be argued palying well enough to be in the lineup at all. And a little bit of info that you obviously don't know, players in the NHL don't get dropped to the 4th line if they're playing well.

The point to concentrate on here is not only did he bring him back right away but he remained in the team. So firstly he knew he was too good to leave out and secondly half the forwards were playing badly enough to be on the 4th line. He was one of the few with any excuse at all for any form lapse if that is why the coach dropped him.

That's the thing with the NHL. It's the best league in the world and it will expose all of your weaknessess. Raymond has probably always been the best skater on his team and he was able to expose lesser players. But in the NHL he can't do that because he's playing the best of the best and he's now one of the lesser players.

That my friend is your opinion, many consider him still to be one of our best skaters, a great two way player with impressive back and forward checking............hence he gets played every night and often shines amongst all your super skaters. As I have said even if he had been one of "our lesser players" (which he wasn't) he at least has the excuse of a serious injury.

I didn't see the scouting report that you seen, but sometimes it takes only one weakness to make you irrelevant and with Raymond it's definitely more than one weakness. It's a physical sport and with him being as weak and soft as he is, it a pretty major weakness to overcome, especially since he's shown no interest in adapting his game to compensate for his weaknessess. In my opinion.

I see little of the weakness you allude to. I have already said I do not agree that he is soft in any way. I saw him take some big hits and get up and skate on, in the playoffs. I think he would benefit from 10 lbs more muscle and a good pre season but what player at 6'-0 and 185 lbs player wouldn't?

Burrows was one of the more consistent Canucks all season and there's something to be said for consistency. If you actually watched the games, you would know that Burrows is one of the Nucks top penalty killers, he also sticks his nose in there, he plays an in your face game, he's a pain in the ass to play against and he draws a lot of penalties because of the way he plays. He also is one of the Canucks most clutch players and scores a lot of big goals as well as being one of their best defensive forwards.

Brilliant observation by saying that you can have two players with the same point totals and yet one has more of an impact. But with the facts that I've given you about Burrows, please enlighten us on what else you expect of him and who you're comparing him too or what you're basing your uneducated comments on?

While I don't disagree with you on Burrows qualities I stand by my statement the this season's Burrows was not the Burrows of last season.

You said "every forward player carrying the puck". Well, I'm not sure if you know this or not but a defenseman can also be a player moving forward and carrying the puck. And please don't tell any of us who watch and know the games that Raymond doesn't play scared. Why else does he not go to the tough areas of the ice? It can't be because he doesn't want to score, because of course he does, but he still won't do it. Please explain this because I'm sure the coach would like to hear it as well as he's been trying to get Raymond to go to the tough areas of the ice for a long time now.

Your pedantic approach does you no favours............we are talking about a FORWARD.

just for you, one more time, Raymond is fearless.............FEARLESS. If he was indeed afraid he would have been out the game years ago and indeed would not have rushed back after fracturing his vertebrae. I say again I am glad you are not a coach. It should be obvious even to you that there are different ways to be effective on a team.

Raymond probably (I don't know this for a fact) has always played in that style..........it has been effective for him in the past pre-injury. He was +4 for the season, Booth was +1, Lapierre was -3.

As for my raving, if you were to play contact hockey or non contact hockey, which one do you think that you'd be more likely getting injured in?

So despite the fact a player is more likely to be injured in hockey, Raymond, who had his back broken, and who you shamefully say is afraid rushed back into the team. Do you realise how biased you sound?

Since Raymond does everything he can to play non contact hockey at both ends of the ice, it's pretty evident that he's less likely to be injured. The other way that you can tell that he's playing scared is becaue he falls so often. I've talked to a few smaller players and they all said the same thing. When you're afraid of being hit or leery of being run, you're lighter and edgier on your skates(for lack of better words), which means that you're more likely to fall for what looks like no apprent reason or get knocked off of your skates easier. I was never a smaller player, so I'm only going by what many smaller players that I talked to that have played a high level of hockey have told me and I respect their opinions. You said that there are many good and great players who don't base their game on being hit or looking for contact. But since Raymond is neither a good or a great player, then you can't really compare him can you? If you're going to make comparisons make it apples to apples and not apples to coconuts. There hasn't been many mediocre or less than mediocre players like Raymond who have any longevity in the league who have shied away or been afraid of contact.

I maintain Raymond IS a good player. You don't get paid what he is paid if you are useless. I don't accept your theory as applying to Raymond. I could quite easily say his light weight to height ratio coupled with his well above average speed and his lack of a proper conditioning IN off season was more likely to be the cause.

However as I have said I don't give a damn about his falls, I see plenty of other players falling for no apparent reason (one famous one is even featured as a poster's sig) It is what you do when you are upright that counts.

Booth makes it his life's work to seek contact and go to the net and the dirty areas and yet without the excuse of a broken back he scored ELEVEN points more than Raymond (in 55 GAMES!.......0.2pts/GAME) a player earning $1.6M more than Raymond...............and he had the advantage of being the greediest player on the team as well as not doing the defensive work of Raymond............. Your theories are bias and bs.

If Sweatt was brought up before he was ready, which was the case, then I'm sure that most would agree that it's closer to being thrown to the wolves than it is choking. I really don't think that you have any idea what choking is in relation to hockey or sports in general.

Who knew he wasn't ready (that was my opinion, not the scouts or the coaches) he might have been ready but the fact is, ready or not he looked overawed.

Leaving the insults to me? You were the one who started with the insults and just because you have found someone who will defend themselves, you now have gotten all high and mighty and think that you're above that? This is a perfect example of a hypocrite. Reminds me a bit of a bully who cowers when he's confronted. Like I said, if you're going to dish it out, you better damn well be able to take it. But if you really want to make comments without the insults then I can do that too.

I think you are well ahead of me on the insults. I also had the decency to stop when I realised you had something serious to say, (after the first post) something you were unable to do apparently. You have continued your disrespect, condescension, sheep insults and petulant behaviour all through this dialogue. Way to go big man.

Maybe Gillis was offered a pick for Raymond but he wanted to give Raymond a final chance to prove himself? Well, I think that we all seen how that went didn't we? Demoted to the fourth line and had the coach calling him out for his poor play.

We have just covered that............. :picard:

Raymond is now going on 27 years old, most dedicated hockey players who lack strength and know it have dedicated themselves to gaining muscle and strength before now. This makes me think that even though he's got all of the best fitness, dietary, strength and conditioning options at his disposal, that he's not dedicated to improving or getting better if he hasn't worked on this obvious weakness by now.

He has just broken his back hardly a recipe for conditioning. His past record doesn't make him look as if he lacks dedication to me. You would have to be his coach to make the accusation you have made...............so bearing that in mind bang goes another one of your biased theories.

Please don't associate me with your sheep attraction. You are the one who has apparently been courting them since you were a wee lad and I just called you out on it. :shock:

You are delusional now, oh dear what next.

I take it we are both retired because I can keep this going for as long as you wish to reply. For someone who has no time for MR you certainly consider him important enough to continue this "war and peace" epistle. Maybe we should start a separate thread just for the two of us. I look forward to your next rant.............keep them coming and we will be into the new season before we know it


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Can't have a 2.5 million dollar fourth line center no matter how good he is at faceoffs. I like him as a player, but it's clear his career is on the downhill.

I think Stefan Schneider is ready to take over fourth line duties.

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I maintain Raymond IS a good player. You don't get paid what he is paid if you are useless. I don't accept your theory as applying to Raymond. I could quite easily say his light weight to height ratio coupled with his well above average speed and his lack of a proper conditioning IN off season was more likely to be the cause.

However as I have said I don't give a damn about his falls, I see plenty of other players falling for no apparent reason (one famous one is even featured as a poster's sig) It is what you do when you are upright that counts.

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Congratulations you are the one Raymond fan left on CDC. Too bad you weren't a fan back in the day and you could have stuck up for Krutov.

I know you are new to the NHL so here's a news flash: More than a few players in the NHL are and have been overpaid for their amount of production. I realize you live in the land of the class system, and it may be burned into your psyche, but the amount you are paid does not always equal your actual worth to society/team.

On your other point, if you are only up on your skates 50% of the time then it already would cut down your production no? Also if , and I agree, its what you do standing up that counts, then Raymond also is a failure.

Raymond not only is NOT good for this team, he's a drag on whatever line he's on. Every line he was forced onto, you would notice a huge drop in potency. He's a negative. He kills momentum, he kills scoring chances, he kills moral. I swear the team was at least 10% more fatigued in the playoffs just because of all the skating they had to do with Raymond on the ice when they had to skate back and retrieve the puck after another of Mason's inevitable perimeter loops, spills and turnovers.

But I don't think he'll be gone. AV is nothing if not stubborn about his pets. And at times it seems like its AV forcing Gillis's hand instead of the other way around. (ie. Hodgson)

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I think Mason Raymond needs a change of scenery. His style of play doesn't fit with this team. I agree with the trade or release scenarios.

I really hate to agree with the majority about Manny but find no good reasons to disagree. He's a good guy and may be good in the dressing room, but it's his play on the ice that he's getting payed for and it's lacking. Whether or not it has to do with his eye injury is irrelevant, MG has to do what's best for the team. Buying him out or trading him, in my eyes, are the best options.

These two players are definate question marks, but MG wants a cup just as badly as we want it. He has created the best team Vancouver has ever had. He has mixed new players with what he took over from the last GM really well. He just needs to find the one or two pieces that will put them over the top. Unfortunately, I don't see Raymond and Malhotra being a part of it.

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Raymond - They WILL sign him, not for long, but a contract non the less (AV and MG have faith in him, and frankly so do I). If he doesn't do well in training camp, or for the beginning of the season, he will probably be traded.

Malhotra - Staying, don't even know why people want him out. He has 4th line minutes, and is our best faceoff man, seriously...

Did anyone even care to point out how much better he's been this year since his injury? Everyone just wants everyone to produce 24/7, even if they're injured.

0 patience on CDC.

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Raymond will be here next season whether people like it or not (at least to start).

- It would be poor management for MG to lose him for nothing

- A good training camp, or a strong start to the season could determine if he has potential to re-gain form.

- Until management can completely eliminate the possibility of him being a contributing player, he should remain on the team

- Free agents will also be expensive (Raymond at 2.5 > Sturm at 2.2)

- If he has a bad start to the season, see if he has trade value or simply waive him (Ala Comeau last year)

- At least this way you eliminate any doubt about his overall ability.

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