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Mutiny fear in Israeli army as religious Zionists gain influence


key2thecup

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Tell me, how many times have you jumped into someone else conversation? LOL

If it was a private conversation - then why wasn't it a PM?

Oh right - to you, all messages are public.

Grow up? Good one....Not!

Again...I never said you "generalized" Zionists - I said you "generalized" religion.

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And you continue to be completely obtuse. I asked a pointed question specifically to another member to answer, not privately, regarding who he specifically was talking about in relation to lobbing an accusation of generalization surrounding Israeli Zionists, which is what we were discussing, primarily, between the two of us......and then you leaped in to give an answer to the question about a topic...'religion'.....that we weren't discussing.

Do you understand what you did now? And if i've ever answered a question that wasn't meant for me, I at least stayed on topic.....which is something you can't seem to recognize yourself as not being able to do. If you wanted to discuss my generalization of religion, then you could have just asked me about it, and we could have done so. Instead, you childishly jumped into discourse that was focused elsewhere, and tried to steer it somewhere else. And if your defence of your actions is 'well you've done it too', then it only further cements your continued childish behaviour thus far, and leads me to continue to suggest that you indeed do attempt to grow up.

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Oh, I'm not suggesting he was ever anti-Israel or anything close as such, where he had to 'soften' anything later on. The Flotilla attack critique is as much a critique on activists on all sides. The issue of Israeli Zionism it seems, at least to me, was a separate point/critique of his from day one, till the day he died. He was against Israel's desire to occupy and hold Palestinians hostage then and recently, as much as he was against the charlatans in charge of Hamas or Hezbollah who kept the Palestinians in squalor and subjugation while being proxies for others. Hitch was never in any one camp, other than recognizing that the only solution was a 2 state one or shared annihilation.

Hitch, as you or someone rightly stated earlier on, had layers of complexity to his thoughts and opinion. While he was very much for a two-state solution, he never held back at critiquing either state actor, or their supporters. What he did recognize and is one of his central points revolving around his thoughts about the conflict over there, for land, by many competing interests, is that the whole thing...the land, the people, the claims of ownership and birth-rights, of support and of protest, is mainly and chiefly issues that have been hijacked by the various radical factions within the parties of a desert God. They all lay claim based on their version of their 'holy' books. The Zionists who are religious use religion, and the Zionists who aren't religious are just as fervent in their beliefs in setting up and controlling their own ethnocentric caliphate, which would still exclude all others from power because of religious affiliation.

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I think you are misusing the word "Zionist". Technically, anyone who argues for two state solution is a zionist as they are pushing a Jewish homeland. You seem to be using the term more in the context of hardliners who want all of the West Bank.

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I don't think i'm using the word incorrectly, as it relates to the land that some Israelis believe should be rightly theirs. The Jews already have a 'homeland', it's called Israel. The difference is that the Zionists also want all of Jerusalem, all the West Bank, and some may even want parts of Syria, Egypt and other parcels of land that belong to other countries. 2 states divided by Palestinians/Muslims on that one region land, isn't for many Israelis, Zionism, it's capitulation. All Zionists are hard-liners in their desire for an Israeli reclamation.. There's no moderate Zionist that's willing to give up land they believe is theirs to others.

I think what you're misunderstanding is that not all Zionists, are religious fundamentalist Zionists, and that i'm not suggesting as such.

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I disagree with you. Zionism merely involves founding one homeland for the Jewish people. Defined borders are not a pre-requisite for being a zionist. Some zionist take different approaches as to how far they want to expand their territories. Like in all movements, some will be more hardline than others.

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You seem to be contradicting yourself. On the one hand you're asserting that to be a Zionist, one calls for the establishment of nationalistic homeland, which logically requires well defined borders, for those of the Jewish faith......and on the other hand you're suggesting that zionists are still zionists without calling for defined borders for their homeland.

Which is it? And how can you have a 'homeland' if you don't have borders around a parcel of land to call your own, and as such 'home'??

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For me, I have thought since I was in Damascus and Tel Aviv, about a decade ago, that perhaps a three state solution is best. Isreal, Gaza and the West Bank. I just don't get how a divided nation for palestinians would really work out...i don't think it would. The two halves could be completely independant of each other and sign bilateral agreements on imigration, citizenship, taxation, currency or whatever they want as time marches on, but to tie them together at 'birth' is a mistake.

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That is a very scientific approach, lol. I "know" deep down inside that there is most certainly no plausible way that all of 'creation' is explained by an uncreated creator. All the argument does when one includes a 'god' is move the whole thing back one more step...where did 'god' come from? WHose god? Your god? You know that we agree that 190,000 gods Do not exist, the only one you 'know' deep down inside does exist happens to be the one you were raised to believe in. right? If you were born on the plains of africa 3 thousand years ago, would you 'know' deep down that god exists? I doubt it, its a fairy tale that even your parents bought into, and thus raised you to also buy into. At least, that is my agreement with a few authors on the subject.

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I already answered your "question" SharpDodger:

Again, you said:

I did not say you were generalizing Israeli Zionists - I said you were generalizing religion. :frantic:

Sharpshooter, I have five words i wanna hear from you: you know Heretic., you're a great guy and a great worker and i love you like a son, you were right, and i'm sorry. Actually that's more like 20 words or something but how about just: Heretic., i'm sorry, and i love ya.

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For me, I have thought since I was in Damascus and Tel Aviv, about a decade ago, that perhaps a three state solution is best. Isreal, Gaza and the West Bank. I just don't get how a divided nation for palestinians would really work out...i don't think it would. The two halves could be completely independant of each other and sign bilateral agreements on imigration, citizenship, taxation, currency or whatever they want as time marches on, but to tie them together at 'birth' is a mistake.

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That is a very scientific approach, lol. I "know" deep down inside that there is most certainly no plausible way that all of 'creation' is explained by an uncreated creator. All the argument does when one includes a 'god' is move the whole thing back one more step...where did 'god' come from? WHose god? Your god? You know that we agree that 190,000 gods Do not exist, the only one you 'know' deep down inside does exist happens to be the one you were raised to believe in. right? If you were born on the plains of africa 3 thousand years ago, would you 'know' deep down that god exists? I doubt it, its a fairy tale that even your parents bought into, and thus raised you to also buy into. At least, that is my agreement with a few authors on the subject.

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