Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

Näslund = Sedins?


uber_pwnzor

Recommended Posts

I was reading the thread about the Canucks rebuilding in 2015, the core is getting older and older and so on.The last time this team needed a rebuild was sometime after the lockout; the West Coast Express era ended. Luongo was traded for Bertuzzi, we hade to let go of Ed Jovanovski and Gillis chose not to re-sign Markus Näslund, our Swedish captain from Örnsköldsvik and all time leading scorer. Sound familiar?

This isn't a thread about the Canucks needing a rebuild, it's more a thread about WHEN we need to rebuild, do you think Gillis will let the Sedins go, just like he did with Näslund, or do you think they'll remain Canucks for their entire careers?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

depends on if gillis thinks sedins can get us the cup or if he decides to go all in on a youth movement

burrows kesler kassian

hansen roy booth as a top six wouldnt be to shabby especially if kassian shows up for prime time next yr

plus sedins packaged with bobby luo could get us a pretty big return of picks prospects plus free up 17.5 million in cap space

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The old core was basically forced out because none of the players were the same after the Bertuzzi incident. Both the organization and the players involved needed to get away from situation otherwise, if motivated, that core probably would have had at least another few years to compete together.

The Canucks will need to change the face of the franchise whenever the Twins stop playing. If they want, they could probably be here for the rest of their careers. Once, they go downhill, it depends on whether or not they will be willing to take a lesser role, less money, to maybe play on a 2nd line.

BTW - It was Dave Nonis, not Mike Gillis that traded the old core.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

depends on if gillis thinks sedins can get us the cup or if he decides to go all in on a youth movement

burrows kesler kassian

hansen roy booth as a top six wouldnt be to shabby especially if kassian shows up for prime time next yr

plus sedins packaged with bobby luo could get us a pretty big return of picks prospects plus free up 17.5 million in cap space

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think they'll retire as a Canuck. Even if their play does decline a bit, I don't see them being so 'bad' that they can't at least play a 2nd line. If our prospects and future trades etc work out we could see a good top 6:

Jensen-Schroeder-Kassian?

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows

Obviously this is just guessing/spit balling how our top 6 could potentially look when the Sedins start to decline a bit. There are so many things that could happen. Sedins could get better with age, the Canucks could work some great magic like they did 1999 and pick a few great players for the future.

I mean who really knows what the future holds, just hope we do what we did a few years. Not completely rebuild bit just tweaked our team after we missed the playoffs to a team that we have today - lets not do a Edmonton, or Penguins model where we suck for a long time to hope for the good years. Lets be more like Detroit, stay competitive every year ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hanks play this year proves that even if production begins to decline, he and his brother can play a defense-heavy game. In three years maybe they play on the 2nd line against other teams top lines. Maybe in 5 years they play 3rd line minutes. They are valuable to this teams success regardless of the utilization.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Flame if you want, but I think the Sedins are the greatest players to ever put on a Canucks jersey; therefore, they will play their entire careers here.

Naslund took a lot of flack from fans for the remaining couple of years here, which is why he didn't finish his career here.

The Twins could very well experience the same thing with fans if the become terribly inconsistent in the later years, but I just don't see that happening with them, they're just that good. It's because of their insane skills that IMO will shelter them from any criticism or controversy and there is just no way they ever get traded.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Dasein

The old core was basically forced out because none of the players were the same after the Bertuzzi incident. Both the organization and the players involved needed to get away from situation otherwise, if motivated, that core probably would have had at least another few years to compete together.

The Canucks will need to change the face of the franchise whenever the Twins stop playing. If they want, they could probably be here for the rest of their careers. Once, they go downhill, it depends on whether or not they will be willing to take a lesser role, less money, to maybe play on a 2nd line.

BTW - It was Dave Nonis, not Mike Gillis that traded the old core.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you seeing what he's doing with Roberto despite the huge contract he gave him and pretty much guaranteed him to be a lifetime Canuck? Out with the old, in with the new.

Gillis will trade the Sedins if/when we have someone who can take over for them the way we had the Sedins when Naslund was declining. Cold but that's his nature.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm fairly reluctant to judge the Sedins' production this year and make a call as to whether or not they have truly started a significant decline. Too many factors in play. Here are seven, in no particular order and by no means a definitive list (there are many other factors not listed):

1. Lockout shortened season and no training camp, plus the whole uncertainty of the lockout and how it effected training and offseason preparation.

2. Missing Kesler and having to play without an effective second line has caused the twins to face much tougher matchups this season.

3. Losing Malhotra and the defensive zone starts he used to eat up. For the twins this meant more matchup issues and no longer getting the cushy O-zone starts they had been used to.

4. Decline in FO% overall, mostly due to the absence of Manny and Kes. The Canucks just haven't started with possession the way they used to and this has hampered the offense teamwide. It's no coincidence that Henrik's FO% is lower than normal this season as teams have been able to matchup their faceoff aces for draws against the twins.

5. Changes on the D (adding Garrison, losing Salo, and shifting the pairings overall) and adjusting to the differences in how offensive contributions are coming from the back end. Seems like they're getting there now but it's been a work in process all season.

6. Edler having a bit of an off year. Eddie has been a key player in the twins' offensive schemes and, while he hasn't been terrible and he has still put-up good numbers, he hasn't been as dominant as in previous seasons.

7. Powerplay struggles. Going from one of the NHL's best PPs to one of the worst (for a significant part of this season) has really hurt the twins' overall numbers.

Those are just the first seven that come to mind. I believe that many of these issues will be addressed or improve on their own next season.

1. The twins will be back to their usual offseason training and preparations and I expect strong seasons from both of them in 2013-14.

2. With luck, Kesler will have a healthy year (and all that means for this team).

3. Manny's departure should be addressed and, while the cap decrease won't allow the addition of another Selke candidate, the Canucks could certainly afford a defensive zone and faceoff specialist like Adam Hall (probably could sign for something in the $600,000 range) who could provide a shutdown presence and be counted on to win key draws in the D-zone (and get the puck out of the Canucks' end and put it deep into the opponent's zone before getting off the ice). Also possible that Kellan Lain grabs a spot out of training camp (assuming his faceoff skills translate into the NHL).

4. With Kesler back and by adding another faceoff ace (either FA or Lain) to the lineup, the Canucks should get back into the top-five on FO%, which would have a significant net effect on possession. Henrik's numbers would naturally increase and the twins' production would go up with better possession.

5. I expect big things out of Garrison next season. I'm very high on this player and I could see him becoming a clear 1D or 2D on this team. Edler should also bounce back. Corrado, if he can make the jump, is a very interesting wildcard. With Frankie, there is the potential for Garrison to play LD. Garry has been great on RD but his underlying numbers suggest that, as good as he's been, he's suboptimal on the right side and he would be markedly better if he could play on the left (imagine that: markedly better than what he's already doing as the Canucks' best defenseman *drool*). Hopefully, the entire back end settles into their new identity post-Salo, post-Ehrhoff, (and likely post-Ballard) and with Garrison becoming one of the leaders.

6. Already suggested that Edler should bounce back. I'm being optimistic on him. There is a worry because Edler has, both this season and historically, had poor numbers playing in front of Cory Schneider and has stellar numbers with Luongo. This is something the Canucks and Edler will need to work on. I believe it will be fixed. Hopefully, just the fact the Lu is finally gone and Eddie is forced to accept Schneider as the #1 will mean that he'll make the necessary adjustments on the ice as well as mentally/emotionally, and hopefully this will fix what has been a glaring statistical discrepancy. Let's say I'm guardedly hopeful. How Edler performs on a team where Schneider starts 60+ games/season is a giant question mark (and the stats don't predict good things). If Edler can get his game on track (with Schneids as the #1), we'll have two impact players on the D (Edler and Garrison) and some healthy competition as to who will take the 1D role and run with it.

7. With Kesler back--and strong, confident, and effective seasons from Edler and Garrison--the Canucks PP should return to where it used to be at the top of the NHL. Should also be able to put together a strong 2nd unit with the remaining players and the development we've seen (and will likely see) from many of the secondary players on this team. Also, expect Newell Brown to be working hard on new schemes and plays because his job is clearly on the line.

Maybe we won't see all of these improvements but I believe we'll see enough of them for the Sedins to have bounce back seasons in 2013-14. How much their production improves (if they get some of the help I'm highlighting) will be the most interesting question to be answered next year. I'm very confident that they'll be point-per-game or better. I have a slight hope that they can flirt with 100 points, if healthy and if the team plays well. That said, I'm pretty certain that the Art Ross days are behind them, barring a magical run that beats all the odds.

With favourable conditions, the twins might actually be able to put-up 80-90 points/season for maybe 3-4 more years before they really start to decline significantly. Even in decline, they could be 50-60 point guys for about as long as they want to play the game (and their bodies hold-up). Personally, I'd like to see them play here for many more years, moving gradually into the secondary and supportive roles while remaining as strong veteran voices in the room that can help guide the younger players through the transition to a new core and new leadership.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thats a good question. i sometimes wonder what will happen once the twins are done. i dont think the sedin situation will be like naslund's. i think the nazzy deal his mishandled, on both parts. once it was decided that he would not be re-signed, that's when he should have retired

i wouldn't say the last lockout was really a full on rebuild. sure, we lost a good chunk of our core/offense, but the team just filled some holes and still did pretty well-- anson carter's year, despite having a patchwork team. i don't think this team will ever need to completely rebuild, but finding quality players like the twins will be hard to come by since this team doesn't rely on the lottery and aren't that bad of a team to get real high draft picks.

i think after the twins stop producing, we might have players who can carry the load, maybe a more rounded out team with half the team's offense gone, maybe not. it's not something i like to think about often but the day will come

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm fairly reluctant to judge the Sedins' production this year and make a call as to whether or not they have truly started a significant decline. Too many factors in play. Here are seven, in no particular order and by no means a definitive list (there are many other factors not listed):

1. Lockout shortened season and no training camp, plus the whole uncertainty of the lockout and how it effected training and offseason preparation.

2. Missing Kesler and having to play without an effective second line has caused the twins to face much tougher matchups this season.

3. Losing Malhotra and the defensive zone starts he used to eat up. For the twins this meant more matchup issues and no longer getting the cushy O-zone starts they had been used to.

4. Decline in FO% overall, mostly due to the absence of Manny and Kes. The Canucks just haven't started with possession the way they used to and this has hampered the offense teamwide. It's no coincidence that Henrik's FO% is lower than normal this season as teams have been able to matchup their faceoff aces for draws against the twins.

5. Changes on the D (adding Garrison, losing Salo, and shifting the pairings overall) and adjusting to the differences in how offensive contributions are coming from the back end. Seems like they're getting there now but it's been a work in process all season.

6. Edler having a bit of an off year. Eddie has been a key player in the twins' offensive schemes and, while he hasn't been terrible and he has still put-up good numbers, he hasn't been as dominant as in previous seasons.

7. Powerplay struggles. Going from one of the NHL's best PPs to one of the worst (for a significant part of this season) has really hurt the twins' overall numbers.

Those are just the first seven that come to mind. I believe that many of these issues will be addressed or improve on their own next season.

1. The twins will be back to their usual offseason training and preparations and I expect strong seasons from both of them in 2013-14.

2. With luck, Kesler will have a healthy year (and all that means for this team).

3. Manny's departure should be addressed and, while the cap decrease won't allow the addition of another Selke candidate, the Canucks could certainly afford a defensive zone and faceoff specialist like Adam Hall (probably could sign for something in the $600,000 range) who could provide a shutdown presence and be counted on to win key draws in the D-zone (and get the puck out of the Canucks' end and put it deep into the opponent's zone before getting off the ice). Also possible that Kellan Lain grabs a spot out of training camp (assuming his faceoff skills translate into the NHL).

4. With Kesler back and by adding another faceoff ace (either FA or Lain) to the lineup, the Canucks should get back into the top-five on FO%, which would have a significant net effect on possession. Henrik's numbers would naturally increase and the twins' production would go up with better possession.

5. I expect big things out of Garrison next season. I'm very high on this player and I could see him becoming a clear 1D or 2D on this team. Edler should also bounce back. Corrado, if he can make the jump, is a very interesting wildcard. With Frankie, there is the potential for Garrison to play LD. Garry has been great on RD but his underlying numbers suggest that, as good as he's been, he's suboptimal on the right side and he would be markedly better if he could play on the left (imagine that: markedly better than what he's already doing as the Canucks' best defenseman *drool*). Hopefully, the entire back end settles into their new identity post-Salo, post-Ehrhoff, (and likely post-Ballard) and with Garrison becoming one of the leaders.

6. Already suggested that Edler should bounce back. I'm being optimistic on him. There is a worry because Edler has, both this season and historically, had poor numbers playing in front of Cory Schneider and has stellar numbers with Luongo. This is something the Canucks and Edler will need to work on. I believe it will be fixed. Hopefully, just the fact the Lu is finally gone and Eddie is forced to accept Schneider as the #1 will mean that he'll make the necessary adjustments on the ice as well as mentally/emotionally, and hopefully this will fix what has been a glaring statistical discrepancy. Let's say I'm guardedly hopeful. How Edler performs on a team where Schneider starts 60+ games/season is a giant question mark (and the stats don't predict good things). If Edler can get his game on track (with Schneids as the #1), we'll have two impact players on the D (Edler and Garrison) and some healthy competition as to who will take the 1D role and run with it.

7. With Kesler back--and strong, confident, and effective seasons from Edler and Garrison--the Canucks PP should return to where it used to be at the top of the NHL. Should also be able to put together a strong 2nd unit with the remaining players and the development we've seen (and will likely see) from many of the secondary players on this team. Also, expect Newell Brown to be working hard on new schemes and plays because his job is clearly on the line.

Maybe we won't see all of these improvements but I believe we'll see enough of them for the Sedins to have bounce back seasons in 2013-14. How much their production improves (if they get some of the help I'm highlighting) will be the most interesting question to be answered next year. I'm very confident that they'll be point-per-game or better. I have a slight hope that they can flirt with 100 points, if healthy and if the team plays well. That said, I'm pretty certain that the Art Ross days are behind them, barring a magical run that beats all the odds.

With favourable conditions, the twins might actually be able to put-up 80-90 points/season for maybe 3-4 more years before they really start to decline significantly. Even in decline, they could be 50-60 point guys for about as long as they want to play the game (and their bodies hold-up). Personally, I'd like to see them play here for many more years, moving gradually into the secondary and supportive roles while remaining as strong veteran voices in the room that can help guide the younger players through the transition to a new core and new leadership.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was reading the thread about the Canucks rebuilding in 2015, the core is getting older and older and so on.The last time this team needed a rebuild was sometime after the lockout; the West Coast Express era ended. Luongo was traded for Bertuzzi, we hade to let go of Ed Jovanovski and Gillis chose not to re-sign Markus Näslund, our Swedish captain from Örnsköldsvik and all time leading scorer. Sound familiar?

This isn't a thread about the Canucks needing a rebuild, it's more a thread about WHEN we need to rebuild, do you think Gillis will let the Sedins go, just like he did with Näslund, or do you think they'll remain Canucks for their entire careers?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you seeing what he's doing with Roberto despite the huge contract he gave him and pretty much guaranteed him to be a lifetime Canuck? Out with the old, in with the new.

Gillis will trade the Sedins if/when we have someone who can take over for them the way we had the Sedins when Naslund was declining. Cold but that's his nature.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see no reason why we'd trade them.. they're consummate professionals and with their well-rounded game should be able to contribute even as they start to slow down. (Which I'm not sure has happened yet - If the PP was going they'd be comfortably above PPG players.)

Naslund had simply lost a step but still finished his last 3 seasons at 25 goals per year. Not too shabby for a guy in his mid-30's. The fans put a ton of pressure on him and it seemed by the end he was just worn down both physically and mentally. No offense to Naslund, but the Twins seem a lot tougher mentally and physically, not to mention their game relies less on speed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I remember correctly, I believe Gillis didn't want to give Naslund the high paying contract Naslund wanted because of his age. I think the Sedins will only be allowed to walk if they are desiring a heavy contract that could create issues later if they decide to retire and Gillis has to eat their cap for a year or more.

That being said, I believe the Sedins do want to finish their careers in Vancouver and will be willing to sign a favourable deal for Gillis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...