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whytelight

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I am one of the fans that are not happy with the lack of push-back when our Canucks meet a team that is much more physical than we are. Some examples are the running of our goalies, the cheap shots on our players, the hits against us etc.

With Torts, I thought I'd see a team that would be tough to play against. Well, I've seen a little too little of that.

Why?

Let me offer my suggestions.

1. The Sedin's: They have my highest respect. However, when there are hits thrown against them, I rarely see them throw hits or body guys off the puck. They are always responding to the physical play instead of initiating it. A lot of 1st lines in the league have guys that hit and are not afraid to hit. Why? I believe it is the way the Sedin's were raised. In Europe, hockey is a sport. A sport where finesse, artistry, skill, talent, and will goes against finesse, artistry, skill, talent, and will. In the NHL, on the other hand, brute force and physical domination often supersede skill, talent, and drive. The Sedin's play hockey. The sport of hockey is not played in the NHL.

2. Lack of will to initiate physical play: It frustrates to me to see our team responding instead of initiating physical play. I hate hearing commentators saying that we're always finding ways to respond to the physical nature of the dominating teams. We have big guys that can destroy other players and initiate the hits.....but we just don't.

3. Inconsistent refereeing: How does a team respond or play physical when they're always guessing what will be called. I actually liked watching the WJ's this year. The refereeing, for the most part, was predictable, text-book, and fair. In the NHL, it is not.

4. The individual personalities of our players. Face it, we don't have anyone to match the compete level of the Justin William's of the league. Dustin Brown gave our captain a good, hard, clean hit in the playoffs a few years ago. No one gave Brown that same kind of hit. Kesler can't to it by himself.

Thoughts?

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I am one of the fans that are not happy with the lack of push-back when our Canucks meet a team that is much more physical than we are. Some examples are the running of our goalies, the cheap shots on our players, the hits against us etc.

With Torts, I thought I'd see a team that would be tough to play against. Well, I've seen a little too little of that.

Why?

Let me offer my suggestions.

1. The Sedin's: They have my highest respect. However, when there are hits thrown against them, I rarely see them throw hits or body guys off the puck. They are always responding to the physical play instead of initiating it. A lot of 1st lines in the league have guys that hit and are not afraid to hit. Why? I believe it is the way the Sedin's were raised. In Europe, hockey is a sport. A sport where finesse, artistry, skill, talent, and will goes against finesse, artistry, skill, talent, and will. In the NHL, on the other hand, brute force and physical domination often supersede skill, talent, and drive. The Sedin's play hockey. The sport of hockey is not played in the NHL.

2. Lack of will to initiate physical play: It frustrates to me to see our team responding instead of initiating physical play. I hate hearing commentators saying that we're always finding ways to respond to the physical nature of the dominating teams. We have big guys that can destroy other players and initiate the hits.....but we just don't.

3. Inconsistent refereeing: How does a team respond or play physical when they're always guessing what will be called. I actually liked watching the WJ's this year. The refereeing, for the most part, was predictable, text-book, and fair. In the NHL, it is not.

4. The individual personalities of our players. Face it, we don't have anyone to match the compete level of the Justin William's of the league. Dustin Brown gave our captain a good, hard, clean hit in the playoffs a few years ago. No one gave Brown that same kind of hit. Kesler can't to it by himself.

Thoughts?

The Sedin's throw hits in the dirty area's along the boards all the time.. What hockey are you watching? Also didn't Daniel throw an open ice hit this year? I've seen the Sedins lay a couple shoulder on shoulder hits this year.

We have Kassian, Sestito, Stanton, and Kesler who are fighting. We have big guys throwing big hits, look at the stats after the game, we are usually on par with checks.

Everyone thinks that we are not a physical team but here's a fun fact for you from the cup run.

Almost every game the Canucks out hit their opponent, they won.

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I am one of the fans that are not happy with the lack of push-back when our Canucks meet a team that is much more physical than we are. Some examples are the running of our goalies, the cheap shots on our players, the hits against us etc.

With Torts, I thought I'd see a team that would be tough to play against. Well, I've seen a little too little of that.

Why?

Let me offer my suggestions.

1. The Sedin's: They have my highest respect. However, when there are hits thrown against them, I rarely see them throw hits or body guys off the puck. They are always responding to the physical play instead of initiating it. A lot of 1st lines in the league have guys that hit and are not afraid to hit. Why? I believe it is the way the Sedin's were raised. In Europe, hockey is a sport. A sport where finesse, artistry, skill, talent, and will goes against finesse, artistry, skill, talent, and will. In the NHL, on the other hand, brute force and physical domination often supersede skill, talent, and drive. The Sedin's play hockey. The sport of hockey is not played in the NHL.

2. Lack of will to initiate physical play: It frustrates to me to see our team responding instead of initiating physical play. I hate hearing commentators saying that we're always finding ways to respond to the physical nature of the dominating teams. We have big guys that can destroy other players and initiate the hits.....but we just don't.

3. Inconsistent refereeing: How does a team respond or play physical when they're always guessing what will be called. I actually liked watching the WJ's this year. The refereeing, for the most part, was predictable, text-book, and fair. In the NHL, it is not.

4. The individual personalities of our players. Face it, we don't have anyone to match the compete level of the Justin William's of the league. Dustin Brown gave our captain a good, hard, clean hit in the playoffs a few years ago. No one gave Brown that same kind of hit. Kesler can't to it by himself.

Thoughts?

I agree. there are some euros who historically like the physical aspect though, with Darius kasparaitis and ulf Samuelson coming to mind. with the sedins and a lot of other players and people in everyday life, it's just something that is not in them. it may be a hereditary thing or a part of their psychology but it's obviously not there. I don't think a coach can suddenly create it in them either so it becomes a personnel issue. Are you going to bring in players who already have that pushback in their personality? And is your coach going to try build your team up by incorporating the motto of sticking up for each other even if it means taking a penalty sometimes? Or are you gonna end up getting punished for taking that roughing minor because you stuck up for bobby Lou in a 2-2 game in December?

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Unfortunately for proponents of this view, such is not the case.

The average number of hits per game that the Canucks’ faced was 22.7. In games with fewer hits than the average, Henrik averaged 1.14 points per game, while Daniel averaged 1.18 points per game. In game with more hits than the average, Henrik’s production rose slightly to 1.16 points per game. In other words, the larger number of hits had no negative impact to his point production whatsoever. Daniel’s production, however, went up by a much more significant amount to 1.37 points per game.

That’s right: both Sedins were more productive in games with higher than average hits. But let’s say that more than 22.7 hits is not a high enough number of hits to count as properly tough and physical. Let’s say that 30 or more hits is a better standard. There were 11 such games last season when the Canucks’ opponents had 30 or more hits. In those 11 games, both Sedins had 15 points each, for a 1.36 point per game average.

The Sedins’ production didn’t decrease against toughness, it increased

http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2011/11/09/the-soft-sedin-myth/

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I really like the way you framed the officiating point by saying "inconsistent refereeing" instead of bias. There's a huge difference. But I do think you're on the money with "inconsistent" as a legitimate issue. And I'd add incompetent to that.

But that's more of a league issue that we need to be able play through. You can't go into a game worrying about how the refs are going to call the game. You just have to play. But I do think the inconsistency and incompetency has an impact within certain games rather than rattling the players on a day to day basis.

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I have always been one to say we are one of the softest teams in the league. However, if we play in the Kings tomorrow with the same line up we had against the Blues we have:

Sestito

Kassian

Weise

Archibald

Bieksa

All have decent fighting ability. Include Stanton once he gets back from injury.

That's 6 regulars who know how to go at it. At this point we are just not aggressive enough, we have the ability to be, but chose not to.

Asides from Sestito, no one has had the push back or aggression needed.

Hypothetically speaking for tomorrow:

Sestito vs Nolan

Kassian vs King

Weise vs Clifford

Bieksa vs Regehr/Greene

Archibald vs Fraser

Possibly Richardson vs Brown

We have the players to match up. Just not the will.

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First off and i'll add to this slowly as i'm doing something at the moment, The Sedins like most other stars who score a lot aren't meant to be fighters or super physical. That would just wear them down and take a route to a shorter shelf life.

2) We don't yet have someone CONSISTANTLY there to do the job of what Kassian is expected to do when he plays with them. That's what a young Messier did for Gretsky and Kurri.

3) When you play a physical game, there must be depth. (remember the run against the bruins) We didn't have enough and that's what MG has been addressing and not getting rid of depth for a rental or just mediocre upgrades of what we have now in our core.

4) We do have guys that have lots of passion but it's a team game and they can't do it by themselves, there is strength in numbers and that's being worked on yet if MG did it the CDC way we'd have traded the depth we have and not ended up with it.

5) Truly we are sitting ok but look for a couple big changes next yr to get what we need...

I said before and i'll say it again, MG was starting to make big changes when the lockout hit and the cap went down and then his hands were tied but the cap going up by 7 something million should help us with that now Hopefully booth will be bought out, his salary traded straight across for Meszaros on D for some help on toughness on the back end and then the 7 something million on getting help up front.

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A better post than I was anticipating from the thread title.

It's a tough one. On the one hand, I think the team has more pushback than it has for some time. Sestito has been better than I expected, Kassian has really picked his spots, but when he decides to lean on a team, their haven't really been many takers. He has a nice deterrent effect without having to constantly be risking himself. The two of them have really neutralized intimidation imo.

The team's goaltenders have been getting run too often. Not surprised that officials have dropped the ball and permitted it - if the right guys aren't on the ice, the response isn't always adequate and turning around and running opposition goaltenders in kind hasn't really been the Canucks m.o. Perhaps there's something to be said for an eye for an eye, because the NHL's concept of discpline is amateurish, but at the same time, I can't argue with the team not resorting to it.

Agree with you regarding the Sedins - they deserve the utmost respect.

I'm not necessarily convinced that focusing on initiating physicality necessarily yields results - approaching the regular season that way can really wear a team down - but I do want to see those depth players whose role that is bring it on a more consistent basis and it's not hard to see why Tortorella has opened the press box to Weise and Booth recently.

I also enjoyed the standard of officiating at the WJC - whether certain calls are debatable or not is one thing, but the consistency was there, and imo that is more important.

As for the Canucks' physicality, I'm not sure if the cup is half empty or half full.

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The Sedin's throw hits in the dirty area's along the boards all the time.. What hockey are you watching? Also didn't Daniel throw an open ice hit this year? I've seen the Sedins lay a couple shoulder on shoulder hits this year.

We have Kassian, Sestito, Stanton, and Kesler who are fighting. We have big guys throwing big hits, look at the stats after the game, we are usually on par with checks.

Everyone thinks that we are not a physical team but here's a fun fact for you from the cup run.

Almost every game the Canucks out hit their opponent, they won.

You are kidding right?

Our hits have been decreasing at an alarming rate. I don't have the stats for the playoffs, but right now we are one of the lowest in the league and dropping like a rock . It's an issue that rarely gets raised, which is surprising since Torts wants more bite.

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What hockey are you watching? Also didn't Daniel throw an open ice hit this year?

Key word here "hit"....note that also "this year".....hit is singular when it should be plural. ....

But on the other hand Tootoo is sitting in the Ahl lol I would love to see him with wiese lol

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I'd like to add Grenier or Lain in for Richardson for a long playoff series against LA/Boston/St Louis type teams because of centre ice control, opposing teams should be wary skating across the middle and admiring their passes. We need big bodies not afraid to finish their checks, but who have the speed to close in on the puck and wage a good puck battle.

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You are kidding right?

Our hits have been decreasing at an alarming rate. I don't have the stats for the playoffs, but right now we are one of the lowest in the league and dropping like a rock . It's an issue that rarely gets raised, which is surprising since Torts wants more bite.

Hit's over last 10 games

STL 19 Van 14

Pit 25 Van 36

Ana 42 Van 30

LA 30 Van 21

TB 9 Van 19

Phi 13 Van 9

Cal 29 Van 29

WPG 21 Van 11

Chi 19 Van 32

Dal 20 Van 25

Van Total 207 hits over 10 games

Opponents Total 227 over 10 games

Over 10 games our opponents are averaging 22.7 hits per game where we are averaging 20.7 hits per game... Nothing to panic over. Keep in mind that we faced physical teams in St.Louis, LA, and Anaheim.

People make up all these myths in their head, like Lu's a choke artist, Kesler is under-rated, Kassian can't produce, and the funniest of them all, the Sedins are soft. You guys need to look at the under lying numbers to actually see what's going on.

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I am one of the fans that are not happy with the lack of push-back when our Canucks meet a team that is much more physical than we are. Some examples are the running of our goalies, the cheap shots on our players, the hits against us etc.

With Torts, I thought I'd see a team that would be tough to play against. Well, I've seen a little too little of that.

Why?

Let me offer my suggestions.

1. The Sedin's: They have my highest respect. However, when there are hits thrown against them, I rarely see them throw hits or body guys off the puck. They are always responding to the physical play instead of initiating it. A lot of 1st lines in the league have guys that hit and are not afraid to hit. Why? I believe it is the way the Sedin's were raised. In Europe, hockey is a sport. A sport where finesse, artistry, skill, talent, and will goes against finesse, artistry, skill, talent, and will. In the NHL, on the other hand, brute force and physical domination often supersede skill, talent, and drive. The Sedin's play hockey. The sport of hockey is not played in the NHL.

2. Lack of will to initiate physical play: It frustrates to me to see our team responding instead of initiating physical play. I hate hearing commentators saying that we're always finding ways to respond to the physical nature of the dominating teams. We have big guys that can destroy other players and initiate the hits.....but we just don't.

3. Inconsistent refereeing: How does a team respond or play physical when they're always guessing what will be called. I actually liked watching the WJ's this year. The refereeing, for the most part, was predictable, text-book, and fair. In the NHL, it is not.

4. The individual personalities of our players. Face it, we don't have anyone to match the compete level of the Justin William's of the league. Dustin Brown gave our captain a good, hard, clean hit in the playoffs a few years ago. No one gave Brown that same kind of hit. Kesler can't to it by himself.

Thoughts?

Agree completely with everything you pointed out, took the words from my mouth. Sedins are the greatest players we have ever had, but do not play the style of hockey that wins cups. Face it folks.

Having said that, we may as well keep cheering, it's our team and they aren't getting traded.

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Agree completely with everything you pointed out, took the words from my mouth. Sedins are the greatest players we have ever had, but do not play the style of hockey that wins cups. Face it folks.

This. Not even kidding but we need some good ol canadian boys.

Previous Stanley Cup winners didn't have any softies on their team. We need playoff hockey players not regular season ones.

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This. Not even kidding but we need some good ol canadian boys.

Previous Stanley Cup winners didn't have any softies on their team. We need playoff hockey players not regular season ones.

While I do agree with a more Canadian line up all I want from GMMG is 1, top 6 Canadian power forward who can score.

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Over 10 games our opponents are averaging 22.7 hits per game where we are averaging 20.7 hits per game... Nothing to panic over. Keep in mind that we faced physical teams in St.Louis, LA, and Anaheim.

Using averages is like using the +/- to rate a player.....not only that you only highlight the games we are close in numbers trying to avoid the number with a high margins. That's just masking an issue. we don't hit enough to DETER a team from effort.

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I agree. there are some euros who historically like the physical aspect though, with Darius kasparaitis and ulf Samuelson coming to mind. with the sedins and a lot of other players and people in everyday life, it's just something that is not in them. it may be a hereditary thing or a part of their psychology but it's obviously not there. I don't think a coach can suddenly create it in them either so it becomes a personnel issue. Are you going to bring in players who already have that pushback in their personality? And is your coach going to try build your team up by incorporating the motto of sticking up for each other even if it means taking a penalty sometimes? Or are you gonna end up getting punished for taking that roughing minor because you stuck up for bobby Lou in a 2-2 game in December?

The thing about Swedes is no scouts are going to Europe lookin for people who are physical when you can find those players in NA. They are looking for Sedins' and Zetterberg's.

The sedins don't need to change their game we need a winger who can play that game. A more developed Kassian could be just what we need on that line.

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I am happier today, with our pushback ability or with the players that will fight! Its better than it has been for quite a while. With Kassian getting better and more ice time as a result, Sestito is not the best fighter in the league , but has been doing way better than I would have predicted, but he has his team mates back and I really like that! Kassian can be considered "disturbing" I absolutely love that. Bieksa can be down right mean and not too many opposing players want to dance with him, unless their coach wants him in the box for 5 and sends out a minor player to win that scenario, regardless of losing the actual fight.

With Santo taking up the slack with Burrows absentia, richards picking it up and Dalpe slotting in , When our main guys are healthy, we have a tremendous amount of depth!!! THAT i really like!

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