Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

Russia invading the Ukraine. Approves military use.


Dittohead

Recommended Posts

Since the coup was done with a lot of right-wing nationalists, it wouldn't be too far off to imagine them targeting ethnic Russians as a rallying technique.

The Russians probably shouldn't be sending in troops to take control of the Crimea, but then again it was probably gonna happen anyways.

Alternative scenario....Crimea would probably have some voting where the Russian majority will vote to leave the Ukraine for Russia, the Ukrainian nationalists will claim voting irregularities, undue influences, etc, more protest/rioting with martial law in place, more violence along ethnic lines... then Russian troops forced to take action....

That's ridiculous. Right wing nationalists are made up of a number of small groups, they aren't a unified faction of neo-Nazis. One of the narratives woven by Kremlin and swallowed by anyone not wanting to look like they're taking western media's word. Beside that, you're actually suggesting these fascists would gain popular support by targeting ethnic Russians (some 8 million of them), who've lived in the country for decades and share cultural and ethnic roots with Ukrainians. Are you sure that's the logical take on the situation?

More violence along ethnic lines? This isn't the middle east or Africa. There's been no ethnic violence, and there's been no hint that ethnic violence may take place... right up to Russia rolling into Crimea (no doubt to protect ethnic Russians from ultra-nationalist Ukrainians). Sounds like you swallowed Kremlin's story hook, line, and sinker.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's ridiculous. Right wing nationalists are made up of a number of small groups, they aren't a unified faction of neo-Nazis. One of the narratives woven by Kremlin and swallowed by anyone not wanting to look like they're taking western media's word. Beside that, you're actually suggesting these fascists would gain popular support by targeting ethnic Russians (some 8 million of them), who've lived in the country for decades and share cultural and ethnic roots with Ukrainians. Are you sure that's the logical take on the situation?

More violence along ethnic lines? This isn't the middle east or Africa. There's been no ethnic violence, and there's been no hint that ethnic violence may take place... right up to Russia rolling into Crimea (no doubt to protect ethnic Russians from ultra-nationalist Ukrainians). Sounds like you swallowed Kremlin's story hook, line, and sinker.

No sounds like you have swallowed the Western story hook, line, and sinker, and are to ignorant to read the facts... You do realize that many of the top level command have been taken over by Right wing nationalists? Sure they don't represent the whole opposition group, but they are as radical as they get. One right wing nationalist leader of some branch in Ukraine's new government has asked the so called Osama Bin Laden of Russia to assist them. There are also many videos online of people attacking government officials who don't agree with the new regimes stance, including the police.

Also this very similar to places like the Middle east because the same blood lines are attacking each other, the only difference is Russians and Ukrainians have similar traditions, etc... And can you explain why statues of Lenin would be destroyed? Theres an anti-russian stance in Ukraine arguably because of the past, but it still doesn't make it right. You don't just storm the democratically elected government that was voted in by half of the population 1 year before the legitimate elections... This isn't 19th century anymore, theres something called diplomacy now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No sounds like you have swallowed the Western story hook, line, and sinker, and are to ignorant to read the facts... You do realize that many of the top level command have been taken over by Right wing nationalists? Sure they don't represent the whole opposition group, but they are as radical as they get. One right wing nationalist leader of some branch in Ukraine's new government has asked the so called Osama Bin Laden of Russia to assist them. There are also many videos online of people attacking government officials who don't agree with the new regimes stance, including the police.

I was born in Kharkiv, to ethnic Russian mother and ethnic Ukrainian father. I speak Russian and Ukrainian, and have been following the events across western, Russian, and independent media.

What the hell is a "Osama Bin Laden of Russia"? Did this guy mastermind two airliners into some skyscrapers in Saint Petersburg and then hid in Pakistan in plain sight for 5 years? You know what such labels scream of? Talking points for simpletons to remember without strain and regurgitate without second thought.

I'm glad your opinion can be swayed with some youtube clips. If I show you clips of police tossing molotovs into the crown from rooftops, will you suddenly champion the opposite side and sing songs of oppression?

This thread gives me a headache.

Also this very similar to places like the Middle east because the same blood lines are attacking each other, the only difference is Russians and Ukrainians have similar traditions, etc...

Who is attacking each other? What blood lines? What the hell are you babbling about?

And can you explain why statues of Lenin would be destroyed? Theres an anti-russian stance in Ukraine arguably for good reasons I guess, but still doesn't make it right. You don't just storm the democratically elected government that was voted in by half of the population 1 year before the legitimate elections... This isn't 20th century anymore, theres something called diplomacy now.

I don't know why the statues weren't destroyed 20 years ago, actually. Why would they be now? Symbolism?

Anti-Russian stance in Ukraine for good reason, you guess? You guess based on what? Weren't you just so confident in your words telling me I swallowed the sinker?

This democratically elected government has robbed the nation over the last three years. Some 70 billion left the country, while the president's son's fortune skyrocketed to half a billion dollars. See any pictures of Yanukovitch's residence in Mezhihirya? He had a Spanish Galleon parked as a restaurant. And a classic car collection. And you know what else? A nation of 50+ million that's on the brink of bankruptcy. Any idea who the president of Ukraine was? I'll give you a hint: he did 6 years in prison for assault before he was 30. He's a criminal thug, not a democratically elected leader of a free nation. Do you really think people should hang around for another year as they watch the president rob the nation of whatever is not bolted down? Maybe they could forget the whole thing happened? Have the new guy declare the old guy untouchable like they do in the States, and repeat the cycle?

Pull your head out of your rectum, you seem light on oxygen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we organized 10,000 protestors, went into the Capital, used violence against law enforcement, built barricades. Made Harper flee for his security. Do you think the Western media would label us as freedom fighters fighting against a corrupt regime or would we be terrorists?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was born in Kharkiv, to ethnic Russian mother and ethnic Ukrainian father. I speak Russian and Ukrainian, and have been following the events across western, Russian, and independent media.

What the hell is a "Osama Bin Laden of Russia"? Did this guy mastermind two airliners into some skyscrapers in Saint Petersburg and then hid in Pakistan in plain sight for 5 years? You know what such labels scream of? Talking points for simpletons to remember without strain and regurgitate without second thought.

I'm glad your opinion can be swayed with some youtube clips. If I show you clips of police tossing molotovs into the crown from rooftops, will you suddenly champion the opposite side and sing songs of oppression?

This thread gives me a headache.

Who is attacking each other? What blood lines? What the hell are you babbling about?

I was talking about Doku Umarov a wanted terrorist in Russia and the US who has ties to members within the current regime. What I meant by blood lines is Ukrainians and Russians are Slavic people, just as Syrians are Semitic people attacking each other. The violence may not be wide spread but theres certainly evidence of it. Also just because you are born from the region doesn't make you more of expert then anyone. Unless your there right now currently I could believe you more, but right now its pure speculation from both sides. Its like me being born in Canada accusing the Canadian government of being racist, just because I am born here, even though I have no position or sources within the government itself. That is what you are doing my friend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we organized 10,000 protestors, went into the Capital, used violence against law enforcement, built barricades. Made Harper flee for his security. Do you think the Western media would label us as freedom fighters fighting against a corrupt regime or would we be terrorists?

Most likely terrorists, just ask the First nations who are labeled terrorists by right wing media when they protest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

watching all of this play out on american television I find it hard to know how much is propaganda and how much is really true

I agree its very difficult to believe what is happening without being on the ground and interacting with the locals. Both media outlets are displaying signs of bias.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was talking about Doku Umarov a wanted terrorist in Russia and the US who has ties to members within the current regime. What I mean by blood lines is Ukrainians and Russians are Slavic people, just as Syrians are Semitic people attacking each other. The violence may not be wide spread but theres certainly evidence of it. Just because you are born from the region doesn't make you more of expert then anyone. Unless your there right now currently then I can believe you more.., but right now its pure speculation..

Wait, having my perspective limited (not to mention clear bias exposed) by being a participant would make me more credible? Whatever you say. :sadno:

Being from the region doesn't make me more of an expert, nor do I claim to be. I don't know where you get that idea from. I do know what I'm talking about, however, and that's more than I can say for you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we organized 10,000 protestors, went into the Capital, used violence against law enforcement, built barricades. Made Harper flee for his security. Do you think the Western media would label us as freedom fighters fighting against a corrupt regime or would we be terrorists?

Is that what happened?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wait, having my perspective limited (not to mention clear bias exposed) by being a participant would make me more credible? Whatever you say. :sadno:

Being from the region doesn't make me more of an expert, nor do I claim to be. I don't know where you get that idea from. I do know what I'm talking about, however, and that's more than I can say for you.

I agree like i said its pure speculation. I don't disagree with what you have said entirely, but its very difficult to separate the truth right now until something drastic occurs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's ridiculous. Right wing nationalists are made up of a number of small groups, they aren't a unified faction of neo-Nazis. One of the narratives woven by Kremlin and swallowed by anyone not wanting to look like they're taking western media's word. Beside that, you're actually suggesting these fascists would gain popular support by targeting ethnic Russians (some 8 million of them), who've lived in the country for decades and share cultural and ethnic roots with Ukrainians. Are you sure that's the logical take on the situation?

More violence along ethnic lines? This isn't the middle east or Africa. There's been no ethnic violence, and there's been no hint that ethnic violence may take place... right up to Russia rolling into Crimea (no doubt to protect ethnic Russians from ultra-nationalist Ukrainians). Sounds like you swallowed Kremlin's story hook, line, and sinker.

Where did I say it's happening? I just tossed out a possible scenario.

If you believe in self-determination of an ethnic group, then there should be no problem with Russia seizing Crimea, right?

There are reasons why many Ukrainians are adamantly against further ties with the Russians. The best case scenario would be some Czech Republic and Slovakia split. Worst case scenario would be something like Yugoslavia.

I find it amazing how whenever it's something pro-west that seizes power, it's suddenly the "will of the people". Yet if it's a regime less friendly to the west, it's "rigged".

The elections in 2012 and 2010 had the now-ousted party decisively winning. Where's the outrage that the democratic leader/party got removed by a variety of right-wing groups?

I'm not saying the people in charge previously are saints, as it's pretty much public knowledge that they're corrupt. The people now leading the new government is also corrupt, but there has been barely any mention of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where did I say it's happening? I just tossed out a possible scenario.

If you believe in self-determination of an ethnic group, then there should be no problem with Russia seizing Crimea, right?

There are reasons why many Ukrainians are adamantly against further ties with the Russians. The best case scenario would be some Czech Republic and Slovakia split. Worst case scenario would be something like Yugoslavia.

I find it amazing how whenever it's something pro-west that seizes power, it's suddenly the "will of the people". Yet if it's a regime less friendly to the west, it's "rigged".

The elections in 2012 and 2010 had the now-ousted party decisively winning. Where's the outrage that the democratic leader/party got removed by a variety of right-wing groups?

I'm not saying the people in charge previously are saints, as it's pretty much public knowledge that they're corrupt. The people now leading the new government is also corrupt, but there has been barely any mention of that.

Its a mixture of three things: double standards, hypocrisy, and creating division within society. The west is an expert in these three things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where did I say it's happening? I just tossed out a possible scenario.

If you believe in self-determination of an ethnic group, then there should be no problem with Russia seizing Crimea, right?

There are reasons why many Ukrainians are adamantly against further ties with the Russians. The best case scenario would be some Czech Republic and Slovakia split. Worst case scenario would be something like Yugoslavia.

I find it amazing how whenever it's something pro-west that seizes power, it's suddenly the "will of the people". Yet if it's a regime less friendly to the west, it's "rigged".

The elections in 2012 and 2010 had the now-ousted party decisively winning. Where's the outrage that the democratic leader/party got removed by a variety of right-wing groups?

I'm not saying the people in charge previously are saints, as it's pretty much public knowledge that they're corrupt. The people now leading the new government is also corrupt, but there has been barely any mention of that.

A completely ridiculous scenario. Whatever it was, it wasn't grounded in reality or facts.

If you believe in self-determination of an ethnic group, then there should be no problem with Poland seizing the western regions, right? Or Romania seizing southwestern regions? Or Bulgars? Before you know it, you don't have a problem with nothing remaining of Ukraine. Care to try this exercise with other European nations? I'm sure there's more than one ethnicity split along a border...

Yes, there are reasons. I wouldn't call them all good reasons in my experience, but reasons nonetheless.

I find it amazing you'd try to sneak this strawman in. I don't actually. Every event should be assessed based on available facts, regardless who it's friendly toward.

The Ukrainian parliament has 450 seats. This was about getting rid of Yanukovitch, and I'd like to see you argue to a Ukrainian that they should wait a year and vote out a corrupt president, because that's democracy. There is no "new government", there is an interim government, with election scheduled for May 25th. Don't confuse things. This is a work in progress, not the finish line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where did I say it's happening? I just tossed out a possible scenario.

If you believe in self-determination of an ethnic group, then there should be no problem with Russia seizing Crimea, right?

There are reasons why many Ukrainians are adamantly against further ties with the Russians. The best case scenario would be some Czech Republic and Slovakia split. Worst case scenario would be something like Yugoslavia.

I find it amazing how whenever it's something pro-west that seizes power, it's suddenly the "will of the people". Yet if it's a regime less friendly to the west, it's "rigged".

The elections in 2012 and 2010 had the now-ousted party decisively winning. Where's the outrage that the democratic leader/party got removed by a variety of right-wing groups?

I'm not saying the people in charge previously are saints, as it's pretty much public knowledge that they're corrupt. The people now leading the new government is also corrupt, but there has been barely any mention of that.

Didn't the separatist party in Crimea get only 3% of the vote or something last election? I don't really think the call for separatism is that strong there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...