Too Much Speculation and Guesswork: Some Perspective

[Remy]

If you're looking for an exercise in futility, look no further than this website. The forums are fraught with a fan base that's confused and frustrated. And for good reason. But that angst is being manifested in some incredibly unproductive ways, especially as many of us try to piece together how our team got to this point. So there's a few issues I'd like to add some perspective to, and if you really love this team, I think it's worth some consideration. So much of the anger that I see on here is based on pure speculation and conjecture, but when you really consider many of those topics, it's absolutely pointless to become a frenzied mob over "reports" and hearsay.

Most recently, the reports have been that Aquilini is overly involved in the day-to-day running of the organization. Or heck, maybe he's just overly involved in the big decisions. We've heard that the Kesler trade was nixed just so that we could sell a few more seats during the playoffs. Too many people are treating this as a fact, and their suggestions for how the organization should proceed are based on some pretty thin evidence. It's no coincidence that most, or all, of this rumour came from Pittsburgh while they were trying to negotiate for Kesler's services. And the rumour benefits Pittsburgh, clearly, as they're attempting to make Gillis look weak, while also discouraging other teams from kicking the tires on Kesler as well. Taking this very thin evidence as a reason blaming ownership is a really pointless endeavour. Maybe it's a problem, maybe it's not. But you can't base solutions for this organization on maybes.

To touch on that same point even further, we first heard rumblings of Aquilini's over-involvement when we hired Tortorella, and again, we have very little to substantiate this as a problem. Many fans focused in on this singular notion, completely ignoring the input of the players, let alone Gillis' opinions. Maybe Gillis loved the guy, and maybe Gillis had Torts as his first pick all along. We simply don't know. Gillis, in typical fashion, appears very neutral on the subject. Extrapolating that his hand was forced, as many would have you believe, serves no real purpose. It's useless speculation until we have more information. We do know, from Gillis himself, that he has a close relationship with the owners. No more, no less.

When it comes to trades, and Gillis' role in all this, there's even more guesswork. What were the offers from Pittsburgh for Kesler? What were the offers over the past two years for Luongo? Gillis hasn't made a "big trade" (Schneider for Horvat and Luongo for Matthias and Markstrom say hello, and that's just within the past several months), do other GMs secretly hate him? Yes, some people take the "quiet" trade front to mean that other GMs have outright ostracised Mike Gillis. This is selective thinking at it's best. Ignore the fact that our team has made some very substantial trades over the years, while putting too much emphasis on whether or not, maybe, other managers like or dislike our manager. It's a high shcool mentality, and there's so little actual support for this theory that it's best left ignored.

Folks, we don't even know for sure if Kesler requested a trade. We don't know all the details around Luongo's trade - why it happened now, and many key elements of why he was on the trade block two years ago. To this day, fans still speculate about Hodgson! And the bottom line is, we simply don't have enough information to generate meaningful conclusions.

We've seen this story before, and it wasn't all that long ago. Alain Vigneault's departure was cheered by many. "Finally" they said, "NOW we'll really start to have success." And what was this based on? Hearsay and conjecture. "AV's lost the room", "He's too lax with the players", "He plays favourites", "He always gets out-coached". These are all statements that no one here can fully verify. But the facts, well, they seem to tell a very different story. While Vigneault was here, the team's struggles were very often laid at his feet. Well, now he's gone, and Gillis is the next whipping boy. Or the players on the team. Or Tortorella. You'd get more precision out of a shotgun. But regardless of scapegoats, the facts are that we had our best years as a franchise under Alain. You simply cannot argue against that, and to me, that's worth a million times more than all the speculation in the world.

The last two years have been hard for Canuck fans. For all of us. But we can't forego the facts we do know for idle speculation. Here's some of what we do know:

• Great track record under Vigneault; conclusion: sure, coaches have a shelf life, but we don't have to crap on the guy now that he's gone.
  
• Great track record under Gillis; conclusion: have some faith and give it some time.
  
• Shortened season last year due to a lockout; conclusion: wonky year, take it with a very large grain of salt.
  
• CBA uncertainty last year; conclusion: this made trades nearly impossible last year
  
• Cap drop this year; conclusion: made trades nearly impossible this year (until the deadline)
  

To me, those facts are the real reason for the team's struggles. Add in an ageing core, and a new coach/system, and we probably shouldn't be surprised by our team's struggles.

I get that it sucks when the team struggles. I hate it, you hate it, and I guarantee the organization hates it. But maybe we can handle it maturely, and deal with it as it comes. I'm sick of the "Fire Gills", "Fire Torts" (and I'm not even a fan), "Fire Aquilini", and "Trade everyone" threads. They're stupid, pointless, and based on wisps in the wind. Let's just focus on what we actually know and, most importantly, stay calm. Gillis and Aquilini didn't get where they are by being complete morons, as some of you would have us believe.

[Lui's Knob]

Will see what moronic moves happen after this offseason or lack thereof

[Toyotasfan]

I'm sure your right and everything will be fine next year , we won't talk about this season anymore. Gillis is by most opinions better than Garth Snow, and eventually we will have the right personell to play John Torterella's system . lol

[Brad Marchand]

Without divulging into specifics, I'll agree that the Canucks struggles, this season and over the last few, have been due to a multitude of factors that worked in unison to produce the current situation. It really isn't productive to single out anyone or anything for the team's lack of recent success because there probably isn't a single reason for it.

That being said, there needs to be accountability throughout the organization, from the management to the players, for the team's apparent decline. Fans are looking for an outlet like most people naturally do. It isn't comforting to accept that there isn't just one person or group of people to blame and that's probably why you're hearing so many calls for Gillis and Tortorella to be fired.

And for those of you wondering, Aquilini can't be removed from his position by anyone except the NHL or his ownership team. Either he would have to sell the team or somehow have the Board of Governors force him to relinquish ownership.

[Lenny Jones]

Will see what moronic moves happen after this offseason or lack thereof

Absolutely quality response. Bravo!

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

I encourage all to read the OP it in it's entirety.

Thank you for the clear and level headed post Remy.

I am definitely one of those guilty of speculating Gillis has little to no respect from the other Gm's around the league. I really have no evidence to support my opinion, except for the terrible offers from other Gm's in return for our players. I was a staunch AV supporter and I actually like Torts as well. I imagine many here are eating their harsh words for AV right about now. I do have a few things to add in regards as to why we are caught in a spiraling downward abyss.

The biggest issue imho our injuries have been steady and their timing horrific. No team sails easily with the injuries we have endured thus far.

The revolving door of who is starting in the top six is making my head spin imagine how the players feel.

Finally the brutal management of Lou and Corey created a lasting affect on the teams morale, their momentum and ultimately the win column.

These are really the only things I can wrap my head around without speculating about being a part of an NHL team and living the PROCESS of daily NHL life.

[Remy]

The biggest issue imho our injuries have been steady and their timing horrific. No team sails easily with the injuries we have endured thus far.

The revolving door of who is starting in the top six is making my head spin imagine how the players feel.

You're absolutely right about that, the injuries this year have been devastating. It doesn't help that we have an ageing core and a lack of depth at forward.

[The Bookie]

Will see what moronic moves happen after this offseason or lack thereof

You think there won't be an off-season? The eternal bummer?

/jokes, fantastic thread OP. I rarely bother with the star rating system, but I gave this one five.

[canucklehead44]

I still think Gillis has done a good job. If all of our top players had "average" seasons by their standards this team would be comfortable in a playoff spot.

The Canucks, going into this season, were a good team. Maybe no longer elite, but considering Gillis had no cap space to work with he made several solid moneyball moves - Richardson, Stanton, and Santorelli.

Santorelli > Raymond

Richardson > Lappy

Stanton > Ballard

Also saved 5.5 million in cap.

Schneids was a loss but Lack has been pretty dang good! (save tonight).

If Torts was the upgrade on AV we thought he would be, this team should have been tapping on the doors of elite.

One thing I love about Mike Gillis is how he has completely transformed our prospect pool.

Horvat, Shinkaruk, Cassels, Subban, Lain, Fox, Eriksson, Dalpe, Kenins, Markstrom. All exciting prospects/young players added this year. Throw in surprise seasons from Grenier and Hutton and our prospects look better than ever.

[selkirkcraig]

I have to say that I am rather impressed with this thread. I agree with Remy's points and will add that imo the change in division format and the great strides some teams have made has also really affected the team. I think the team had been driving in manual drive for a few too many years during the regular season, and then this year, bam! the west is just kick butt good. Couple these with brutal injuries in an olympic year with less breaks to rest hurt players, , change in coaches, and off years from pretty much everyone, and viola, you have the 2013-2014 Canucks.

[RDCurran]

Read the op but not rest only thing I will say is the evidence on av is a bit more sound despite overall numbers! Lack of timing on time outs boneheaded choices in some games as to benchings and general lack of adapting in series !

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

I have to say that I am rather impressed with this thread. I agree with Remy's points and will add that imo the change in division format and the great strides some teams have made has also really affected the team. I think the team had been driving in manual drive for a few too many years during the regular season, and then this year, bam! the west is just kick butt good. Couple these with brutal injuries in an olympic year with less breaks to rest hurt players, , change in coaches, and off years from pretty much everyone, and viola, you have the 2013-2014 Canucks.

Great point selkirkcraig. We were in charge of a pretty weak div for a few years. Much tougher opponents this season that is for sure.

[gunshygillis]

Gillis made the "big deals" only because it had to be done. Never took any risk at all. That is his downfall. He'd have a lot more support right now if he had tried something, but everyone could see this team was sliding in this direction a long time ago. Yes it sometimes doesn't work but at the end of the day you can always say you tried

[Remy]

Gillis made the "big deals" only because it had to be done. Never took any risk at all. That is his downfall. He'd have a lot more support right now if he had tried something, but everyone could see this team was sliding in this direction a long time ago. Yes it sometimes doesn't work but at the end of the day you can always say you tried

I guess that's my point though, we don't know that he didn't try. We don't know which teams he called, or which teams called him. We don't know which players were involved.

And with the cap drop this year, and lockout last, it's difficult to imagine the full scope of what Gillis was up against. My feeling is that most teams have not done very much in the past year or two, for the same reasons. Now that those things have stabilized a bit, I think we will see a lot more activity out of our GM, but time will tell. Gillis has been very clear that this team needs to see some changes, so I think he's well aware. I can't imagine any reasons why he wouldn't do something if he could.

[hlinkas wrister]

Amazing. A post littered with common sense and perspective and I find it on the second page already on the same day it was written. Great post OP, a real shame it's getting lost amongst all the knee-jerk chicken-little doom-mongering around here.

[Angry Goose]

To me, those facts are the real reason for the team's struggles. Add in an ageing core, and a new coach/system, and we probably shouldn't be surprised by our team's struggles.

I get that it sucks when the team struggles. I hate it, you hate it, and I guarantee the organization hates it. But maybe we can handle it maturely, and deal with it as it comes. I'm sick of the "Fire Gills", "Fire Torts" (and I'm not even a fan), "Fire Aquilini", and "Trade everyone" threads. They're stupid, pointless, and based on wisps in the wind. Let's just focus on what we actually know and, most importantly, stay calm. Gillis and Aquilini didn't get where they are by being complete morons, as some of you would have us believe.

CDC is a demanding bunch, sometimes to a fault but I agree losing hockey sucks, especially this kind of losing hockey.

SOmetimes things don't come together for a team in a certain year. Look at ANH in 2011-12. Bounced back last season and now they are tearing it up. That said, they re-tooled with some younger players so MG has some work to do and I'm hoping the rest of the Canucks still here next year can turn the ship around. Or maybe I'm too optimistic?

[TOMapleLaughs]

Ah, but without these reports and hearsay to get excited about here, there is nothing to get excited about here.

Sure, we're being trolled by the media. But it's being done in the name of 'entertainment.' So since the on-ice product is poor and will likely continue being poor for awhile, get used to being trolled and having fans flip out about it indefinitely. What you can do about it I guess is troll the media back, because for the most part they deserve it.

btw. If CDC's contents ever affected what is going to happen with the team or otherwise, i'd be very surprised.

[Chalky]

Will see what moronic moves happen after this offseason or lack thereof

We will see a lack of moronic moves? I agree, good to see you are taking some positives out of this.

[RonMexico]

Don't tell me how I should feel about the team! I demand accountability and transparency. I paid for a Canucks PPV once, I have supported these greedy owners. I want to know all the possible trades bandied about at the deadline and why MG didn't just accept them. I want to know how the players really feel about their coach. I want...I want...I want to know everything!

[viking mama]

No one has been preaching louder than myself that league politics have been screwin' this team for a number of years now.

I disagreed with the Tortorella hire...a guy with virtually NO knowledge of the fiercest competition this team would face in the league...from the Pacific Division. Those teams have retained some of the saviest coaches in the league for themselves...& Torts ain't nearly as composed, intelligent or flexible enough...to be THAT! This WAS a mistake...even for the future.

But, regardless of where we are now with this team.... I will support 'em. Instead of boos...I will always be there to call the charge of "Go Canucks Go"...until I'm hoarse.

I just wish Tortorella would eat humble pie & apologize profusely to his players for his gaffs & mis-teps...& there have been some doozies. For him to pretend that the "Heritage Classic" call was right in hind-sight...serves NO purpose now...except to emphasize that he's a very detached, stubborn, ignorant & in-sensitive fool - who is light-years away from earning the respect of his players or peers. A 5-year contract for him was always an insane risk. Everyone knew it....& we told 'em so! That's on Gillis & the Aquilinis. The core-busting is now well under-way...BUT even the rookies, who don't know any better, can sense & see - that this coach ain't all that ..nor always right ...nor are his actions all that respected by this group of players.

The assistant coaching-staff is clearly NO better. As former-players...if they cannot alter or sway this man's mind in key situations.....they are next to useless. Their track-record coaching in Tortorella's absense has been abysmal also. The 'Nucks ain't gonna be the new Boston Bruins...nor does this family-friendly marketplace really want them to be that. Yes - the thugs of the Chairman's voting-block are winning the NHL's political war...to keep the league violent & more traditionally-retro...further damaging players & the game....just to appease old markets & their greed/need for violent entertainment. I pray Yzerman & Sakic join forces sooner that later...to turn that tide - eventually. Unfortunately, tho'...Torts is more aligned with fossils & trying to sell such things in retro-style...via F-bombs & wild-fire...to the likes of the Sedins, Hamhuis, Edler, Bieksa, Higgins, and others of dignity & quality character...in the post-Rick-Rypien era. That's a massive disconnect...& the real joke.

I would prefer my high-flying Canucks - back. I was hoping that a change in league-politics could make this so, eventually....as the Chairman's voting-block turned over. But as long as Jacob's & Co. can keep giving perks/bribes to teams that: wipe-out & amend fines to insiders (NJ)...seed the DPS with persons who do the same with lenient or non-suspensions to the favored...or plant ingratiated referees in the So -Cal triangle to work key games & series....well...the 'Nucks will not be prospering & will staying on the outside looking-in...a lot!

I'm choking on my words as I say this...but - only another insider can help. Burkie is that. It would be his ultimate revenge to take away Gillis' job - too....if he even would. But he probably won't... 'cuz I believe Burkie's contempt extends to the Aquilini family as well,... as the ones who came-out ahead in the failed Gaglardi purchase & legal challenge....backed by Nonis & Burke. SPECULATION: Perhaps the league may actually be trying to get the Aquilinis to cough-up their presently-lucrative franchise, if in financial distress... to another prospective purchaser, more favorable to the old boy's club. That could be good for the team...but a ruthless tactic & a despicable way to treat your partners in business...but then again - this clearly happens all of the time.

The VANCOUVER CANUCKS are not a franchise of any favor. When they couldn't beat 'em in the board room...at least the team once had a fighting chance to beat 'em on the ice. But - with the weight of everything that's been conspiring to keep 'em down...this group is now mentally & physically & perhaps morally defeated....especially after being sold a different bill-of-goods by their GM. Goods that their coach can't deliver. Tortorella is NOT a player's coach....NOT for this group...NOT by a long-shot.

Whatever drama transpires next.....cheer for the hapless players. Refuse to become what the eastern-media-propaganda machine calls us,...bad fans. We are a great & loyal fan-base & this market will survive whatever comes along...as it did in thru the Messier era...but - we need to attract & keep...our players of the future. SO make your "Fire the GM" or "Turf Tortorella" signage... but show the players some mercy, empathy & a little sympathetic love!

Go Canucks Go! Say-it & support 'em! Especially - when no one else will! We are the 7th man! We are ALL Canucks. And - I'm still in!