Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[JoesRooster]

Dunno if this was posted yet, Virtanen's skating looks crisp.

 

[Phat Fingers]

21 hours ago, tas said:

in 2014-15 there were 49 players that had minimum of 1.00 pts/g I. the whl (63 made it to 0.90), though 2 of those players only played 2 and 1 games, respectively. 

 

of those, only brayden point, sam reinhart, and leon draisaitl have established themselves as nhl players. 

So, that logic thing still works on the CDC?  

[Phat Fingers]

15 hours ago, Diamonds said:

I honestly don't know what the point is that you are trying to make. Are you agreeing with The 5th Line or providing a rebuttal? 

 

If you are agreeing, then I take it you are saying yes there are a lot of players above 1.00 pts/g (49) and of those only 3 have established themselves as NHL players and all were in the top 10 for ppg that year. In contrast, Jake was ranked 40th out of 49 in ppg and so since only three have established themselves and all were near the top what Jake did wasn't very impressive and he doesn't have a great shot at making it.

 

If you are providing a rebuttal, then I take it you were saying no there weren't that many players above 1.00 pts/g that year (only 49, not 80) and of those only 3 have established themselves so far as NHL players whoch means that there is still lots of time and Jake did actually have a pretty good season. 

 

I honestly don't know which point you were trying to make so if you could help me out it be greatly appreciated. 

 

Also, as an aside, I would say that Oliver Bjorkstrand, Nic Petan (both also in the top 10 for ppg), Shea Theodore, and Ivan Provorov have also established themselves as NHL players (and I think Mathew Barzal and Nolan Patrick will establish themselves this year). I don't know which argument this supports. 

Diamonds,

 

 

I believe it is safe to say the Tas was pointing out a gaping huge hole in the Jake is a bust train.  It doesn't mean that Jake can't be a bust, but that there is very little evidence, only conjecture that his a bust.  As many have been saying, this season is a huge one for JV and it will show everyone what our 6th OA pick from 2014 has to offer.  

[ForsbergTheGreat]

It seems like there are two extreme sides here.  One side thinks Jake is going to have a Doan like career and another side seems to think Jake will never play a full season in the NHL and he's likely going to end up somewhere in the middle.

 

Let’s be honest, since Jake was drafted he hasn’t done anything other than a few very small streaks of showing he’s going to be something more than a career AHLer.  He’s been a disappointing 6th overall pick in every way since being drafted, to say he hasn’t would just be a down right lie.  But that doesn’t mean he can’t potentially turn it around.  Because of his skill set, he could find his stride and become an effective NHLer, it could happen but that belief is based on hope. 

 

The argument for hope is mostly supported by examples of players that broke out later in their careers…. but for every player that broke out, there are 5-10 more that didn’t.  There are a lot of things going against Jake and it will really come down to what he’s able to show THIS year, (that means putting up some points, it’s what is expected from a 6th overall pick).  Next year he’s no longer going to be exempt from waivers, so he will have to make the team or we risk him getting claimed for nothing.  Next year there are a number of other rookies looking to surpass him on the depth chart, so he’s really got the next 8 months to prove his worth.

 

I’ve watched a lot of Jake with the Hitmen and I do think he could be an effective player in a “supporting” role.  He’s not going to be a line driver, and that’s why I think his top ceiling would be E.Kane (who oddly enough is a UFA next year and could find a home in Vancouver) but more realistic expectations would be Hansen and even Torres and that’s nothing to be looked down upon. Teams need those types of role players in order to win.  Jake reaching anything more than that is a bonus, like when you find an extra 20 in your pocket from the night before. 

[Fantomex]

1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

It seems like there are two extreme sides here.  One side thinks Jake is going to have a Doan like career and another side seems to think Jake will never play a full season in the NHL and he's likely going to end up somewhere in the middle.

 

Let’s be honest, since Jake was drafted he hasn’t done anything other than a few very small streaks of showing he’s going to be something more than a career AHLer.  He’s been a disappointing 6th overall pick in every way since being drafted, to say he hasn’t would just be a down right lie.  But that doesn’t mean he can’t potentially turn it around.  Because of his skill set, he could find his stride and become an effective NHLer, it could happen but that belief is based on hope. 

 

The argument for hope is mostly supported by examples of players that broke out later in their careers…. but for every player that broke out, there are 5-10 more that didn’t.  There are a lot of things going against Jake and it will really come down to what he’s able to show THIS year, (that means putting up some points, it’s what is expected from a 6th overall pick).  Next year he’s no longer going to be exempt from waivers, so he will have to make the team or we risk him getting claimed for nothing.  Next year there are a number of other rookies looking to surpass him on the depth chart, so he’s really got the next 8 months to prove his worth.

 

I’ve watched a lot of Jake with the Hitmen and I do think he could be an effective player in a “supporting” role.  He’s not going to be a line driver, and that’s why I think his top ceiling would be E.Kane (who oddly enough is a UFA next year and could find a home in Vancouver) but more realistic expectations would be Hansen and even Torres and that’s nothing to be looked down upon. Teams need those types of role players in order to win.  Jake reaching anything more than that is a bonus, like when you find an extra 20 in your pocket from the night before. 

 

 

Disappointing to who? You? Or other fans with ridiculous expectations? He has 2 years of pro hockey under his belt. Arguably he shouldn't have been in the NHL that first year, but he was forced into the lineup. He spent last year in the AHL and by all accounts took great strides under the guidance of Travis and Nolan. This will be his 3rd year of pro hockey, but most of you want to write him off as a bust. Not every 6th overall pick comes into the NHL and produces great numbers. Kids take time to learn. Even Forsberg the Great spent a few years in the SEL developing. Ryan Smyth took a few years to develop. Mikko Koivu spent years in the Liiga developing. Derick Brassard, Viktor Kozlov, Milan Michalek, Scott Upshall, Mika Zibanejad - all 6th overall picks took time to develop. These aren't generational talents that just explode onto the scene. There are very few exceptions that do come in and make an immediate impact. 

 

Temper your expectations of what he should immediately be due to being a high draft pick. To say he's been a disappointing 6th overall pick in every way since being drafted is a downright lie.

[aGENT]

2 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

It seems like there are two extreme sides here.  One side thinks Jake is going to have a Doan like career and another side seems to think Jake will never play a full season in the NHL and he's likely going to end up somewhere in the middle.

 

Let’s be honest, since Jake was drafted he hasn’t done anything other than a few very small streaks of showing he’s going to be something more than a career AHLer.  He’s been a disappointing 6th overall pick in every way since being drafted, to say he hasn’t would just be a down right lie.  But that doesn’t mean he can’t potentially turn it around.  Because of his skill set, he could find his stride and become an effective NHLer, it could happen but that belief is based on hope. 

 

The argument for hope is mostly supported by examples of players that broke out later in their careers…. but for every player that broke out, there are 5-10 more that didn’t.  There are a lot of things going against Jake and it will really come down to what he’s able to show THIS year, (that means putting up some points, it’s what is expected from a 6th overall pick).  Next year he’s no longer going to be exempt from waivers, so he will have to make the team or we risk him getting claimed for nothing.  Next year there are a number of other rookies looking to surpass him on the depth chart, so he’s really got the next 8 months to prove his worth.

 

I’ve watched a lot of Jake with the Hitmen and I do think he could be an effective player in a “supporting” role.  He’s not going to be a line driver, and that’s why I think his top ceiling would be E.Kane (who oddly enough is a UFA next year and could find a home in Vancouver) but more realistic expectations would be Hansen and even Torres and that’s nothing to be looked down upon. Teams need those types of role players in order to win.  Jake reaching anything more than that is a bonus, like when you find an extra 20 in your pocket from the night before. 

I don't think the underlined is true. There's very few people making 'guaranteed' claims he's another Doan. They're simply pointing out examples of players, like Jake, who struggled early before they adapted and suggesting that we maybe wait and see if Jake can be one of those players...or not.

 

His development has certainly not gone on what one would consider an 'ideal' trajectory to this point and it's certainly a possibility he busts. But it's also far too soon to declare such as a closed book and entirely possible he turns out to be one of the 1 that does make it to the 5-10 who don't.

 

Agree that he's not particularly a play driver and is a bound to be complimentary player to more play-driving line mates. Top 6, middle 6 or bottom 6. That was always his skill set though and people should not be surprised by that (or that he didn't particularly produce a shiny stat line last year given a lack of play drivers in Utica, his largely defensive role or that he wasn't in pro-shape until the latter half of the year). That's not a recipe for points. Hopefully it was a good one however for a wake up call and learning to train and play like a pro.

 

This certainly is a big year for Jake. He needs to take those lessons he learned last year, the training and the game play foundation he built and build off of that. If he can't, I think there'll be a lot more people leaning towards the likelihood of him 'busting'. If he can, as I personally think he will, I think he'll show that despite his bumpy start, lack of maturity and lackluster development thus far, that he can indeed play in the NHL and that the bust label was perhaps premature.

 

 

[N4ZZY]

1 hour ago, Fantomex said:

 

Disappointing to who? You? Or other fans with ridiculous expectations? He has 2 years of pro hockey under his belt. Arguably he shouldn't have been in the NHL that first year, but he was forced into the lineup. He spent last year in the AHL and by all accounts took great strides under the guidance of Travis and Nolan. This will be his 3rd year of pro hockey, but most of you want to write him off as a bust. Not every 6th overall pick comes into the NHL and produces great numbers. Kids take time to learn. Even Forsberg the Great spent a few years in the SEL developing. Ryan Smyth took a few years to develop. Mikko Koivu spent years in the Liiga developing. Derick Brassard, Viktor Kozlov, Milan Michalek, Scott Upshall, Mika Zibanejad - all 6th overall picks took time to develop. These aren't generational talents that just explode onto the scene. There are very few exceptions that do come in and make an immediate impact. 

 

Temper your expectations of what he should immediately be due to being a high draft pick. To say he's been a disappointing 6th overall pick in every way since being drafted is a downright lie.

I agree. I just think that people wanted Jake to be a "generational" type of talent to burst onto the scene and put up points. y'know, NHL18 like gameplay where you score 60 goals, and get 100 assists. Jake certainly has the chance to bust, and I understand that perspective. I also understand that he's 21, and his development wasn't and isn't ideal. Shouldn't have been in the league that first year, but he was, and then shuffled back and forth from the AHL to the NHL, as well as playing under a head coach, who most of us felt was out of his league in the NHL. Add all that up, and yeah, if I were Jake, I'd be pretty frustrated. At the same time, the kid isn't Horvat. He doesn't scream "mature beyond his years" to me. He needs time to develop and mature. This is, like everyone else is saying, a big year for Jake, whether in the minors or in the NHL. There needs to be some evidence that he can play in the NHL and become a regular contributor of sorts. Doesn't have to produce 20 goals, but 10-15 (in the NHL) would definitely be an improvement over his 7 goals his first year. 

 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

39 minutes ago, Fantomex said:

 

Disappointing to who?

 

To the entire hockey world.  Even to Jake Virtanen himself would say he hasn't been happy with how things have went since being drafted. 

 

39 minutes ago, Fantomex said:

 

You? Or other fans with ridiculous expectations? He has 2 years of pro hockey under his belt. Arguably he shouldn't have been in the NHL that first year, but he was forced into the lineup. He spent last year in the AHL and by all accounts took great strides under the guidance of Travis and Nolan. This will be his 3rd year of pro hockey, but most of you want to write him off as a bust. Not every 6th overall pick comes into the NHL and produces great numbers. Kids take time to learn. Even Forsberg the Great spent a few years in the SEL developing. Ryan Smyth took a few years to develop. Mikko Koivu spent years in the Liiga developing. Derick Brassard, Viktor Kozlov, Milan Michalek, Scott Upshall, Mika Zibanejad - all 6th overall picks took time to develop. These aren't generational talents that just explode onto the scene. There are very few exceptions that do come in and make an immediate impact. 

Great list some more players that comparison with Jake,  When forsberg at 19 guess what he was doing?  Not struggling in the AHL. He was putting up 47 points in 39 SEL games.  How does that compare to Jake.

 

Yes players do take time but they also progress through there stages, 

Virtanen draft +3 years 19 points in 65 games. 

 

Compared to.....

• Symth was a 60 point player in the NHL draft +3 year
• Forsberg was a Oylmpic gold medal winner MVP, draft +3 year
• Koivu was putting up 30 points in 45 games in SM-Liiga
• Brassard was putting up 25 points in 31 games in the NHL,, draft +3 year
• Upshall was putting up 46 points in 62 games in the AHL,, draft +3 year
• Zibanejad was over a ppg in the AHL and a .47ppg player in the NHL draft +3 years,
• Michalek was a 66 point player in the NHL draft +3 year

 

You sure proved your point there.  I never said that Jake can't break out, i'm saying up to this point he hasn't shown much of anything to suggest he will.  All people are going off is his skill set and hope, because every other indicator say's he's struggled since being drafted.

 

39 minutes ago, Fantomex said:

Temper your expectations of what he should immediately be due to being a high draft pick. To say he's been a disappointing 6th overall pick in every way since being drafted is a downright lie.

It's not about just expectations, it's about progressing, he has shown very little progress, while 90% of his counterparts have. Stop trying to defend that, i know people love to be homers and feel like any sort of criticism is someone attacking him but sometimes you just need to take a deep breath and realise the the criticism is fair, it doesn't mean he can't turn it around. He's not a write off but to act as if we should be satisfied with how his development has went at this stage is just plain dumb. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

50 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I don't think the underlined is true. There's very few people making 'guaranteed' claims he's another Doan. They're simply pointing out examples of players, like Jake, who struggled early before they adapted and suggesting that we maybe wait and see if Jake can be one of those players...or not.

 

 

That's not how i've read it, to me it's being portrayed as "these players broke out later so we shouldn't be worried about how Jake as played up to this point" and because of it is void of any criticism.

 

Quote

His development has certainly not gone on what one would consider an 'ideal' trajectory to this point and it's certainly a possibility he busts. But it's also far too soon to declare such as a closed book and entirely possible he turns out to be one of the 1 that does make it to the 5-10 who don't.

Exactly, it is too soon but his progressing, maturity, and production has been disappointing.  Green did say he started getting thing by the end of the year but we will see how that transitioned this summer.  I do think he will still amount to a NHL player but into a middle 6 type role player in the like of a Hansen or torres, which I would be happy with.

 

Quote

Agree that he's not particularly a play driver and is a bound to be complimentary player to more play-driving line mates. Top 6, middle 6 or bottom 6. That was always his skill set though and people should not be surprised by that (or that he didn't particularly produce a shiny stat line last year given a lack of play drivers in Utica, his largely defensive role or that he wasn't in pro-shape until the latter half of the year). That's not a recipe for points. Hopefully it was a good one however for a wake up call and learning to train and play like a pro.

 

This certainly is a big year for Jake. He needs to take those lessons he learned last year, the training and the game play foundation he built and build off of that. If he can't, I think there'll be a lot more people leaning towards the likelihood of him 'busting'. If he can, as I personally think he will, I think he'll show that despite his bumpy start, lack of maturity and lackluster development thus far, that he can indeed play in the NHL and that the bust label was perhaps premature.

This year is huge for him.  He needs to show some consistent progress, our pool is filling up fast and a franchise wont just wait around leaving a roster spot open for him in hopes he does figure it out.  I do think he will and hopefully find away to provide some benefit at the NHL level but another slow year and there could be a good chance he's package up in a trade. 

Edited September 5, 2017 by ForsbergTheGreat

[Toews]

47 minutes ago, Fantomex said:

 

Disappointing to who? You? Or other fans with ridiculous expectations? He has 2 years of pro hockey under his belt. Arguably he shouldn't have been in the NHL that first year, but he was forced into the lineup. He spent last year in the AHL and by all accounts took great strides under the guidance of Travis and Nolan. This will be his 3rd year of pro hockey, but most of you want to write him off as a bust. Not every 6th overall pick comes into the NHL and produces great numbers. Kids take time to learn. Even Forsberg the Great spent a few years in the SEL developing. Ryan Smyth took a few years to develop. Mikko Koivu spent years in the Liiga developing. Derick Brassard, Viktor Kozlov, Milan Michalek, Scott Upshall, Mika Zibanejad - all 6th overall picks took time to develop. These aren't generational talents that just explode onto the scene. There are very few exceptions that do come in and make an immediate impact. 

 

Temper your expectations of what he should immediately be due to being a high draft pick. To say he's been a disappointing 6th overall pick in every way since being drafted is a downright lie.

The only way people can actually say that they aren't disappointed with his progression thus far is if they had absolutely no expectations to begin with. That seems very unlikely as just about everyone has expectations of a top 10 pick. Virtanen coming off of a shoulder injury in his draft + 1 year has a mediocre season in the WHL as well as a mediocre WJC. His goal totals dropped, he barely progressed. He showed little to no growth in his offensive game. After the Hitmen season had ended he played in the AHL including the Comets Calder Cup run and was entirely inconsequential. 

 

Fast forward to the next season where he made the team when he should not have and was either benched or played 7-12 minutes of sheltered ice time every night. He had an extremely poor WJC, but I will excuse this one as the entire Team Canada team was poor. He came back to the NHL and for a handful of games he seemed to perform and looked like a NHL player. He was far from exceptional though, he was merely passable IMO. 

 

He arrived at camp the next season badly out of shape. The team benched the big Russian D prospect for the same transgression but Virtanen got to stay up and play games. Despite this he went to media and complained about his usage and not getting to play with the linemates of his choice. He was sent down to Utica where he had the worst production in the AHL for a top 10 pick since Zach Hamill. The only two first round picks who had prolonged NHL careers with that kind of production in recent years are Colby Armstrong and Ben Eager, which shows that it is not only rare but it's also not exactly vaunted company to be in either. 

 

So let's see he hasn't performed up to expectations on the ice. He has up until recently shown a lack of commitment in his approach to his off-ice habits. His offensive game is still very rudimentary in the sense that the only time he actually looks dangerous is when he gets the jump on a defender at his own blue line. His board work and forechecking game is far from exceptional which you need to have if you cannot produce offensively.

 

To say that people had unreasonable expectations of him is laughable as even if you had the bare minimum expectations of a top 10 pick you would still have to be disappointed with his progression. The only lie is the part where you implied that the poster you quoted was calling him a bust. In fact I would say even his expectations are higher than I have. I estimate Jake's realistic potential to be a player in the mold of Tom Wilson and that's if he has put his shoulder troubles behind him and can play more physically than he did last year in the AHL. At this point all of Boeser, Goldobin, Gaudette and Dahlen have shown more progression in their games and I would sooner bet on one of them than Jake. 

[GoBoGo53]

1 hour ago, Fantomex said:

 

Disappointing to who? You? Or other fans with ridiculous expectations? He has 2 years of pro hockey under his belt. Arguably he shouldn't have been in the NHL that first year, but he was forced into the lineup. He spent last year in the AHL and by all accounts took great strides under the guidance of Travis and Nolan. This will be his 3rd year of pro hockey, but most of you want to write him off as a bust. Not every 6th overall pick comes into the NHL and produces great numbers. Kids take time to learn. Even Forsberg the Great spent a few years in the SEL developing. Ryan Smyth took a few years to develop. Mikko Koivu spent years in the Liiga developing. Derick Brassard, Viktor Kozlov, Milan Michalek, Scott Upshall, Mika Zibanejad - all 6th overall picks took time to develop. These aren't generational talents that just explode onto the scene. There are very few exceptions that do come in and make an immediate impact. 

 

Temper your expectations of what he should immediately be due to being a high draft pick. To say he's been a disappointing 6th overall pick in every way since being drafted is a downright lie.

He had a terrible draft +1 in the WHL, a terrible draft +2 in the NHL (albeit he was rushed, not his fault), a terrible world juniors, and a terrible draft+3 season. I have no idea how you can even write something like your last sentence and have anyone take you seriously. Of course he's been a disappointing 6th overall pick.  Jake needs to show progress in order to be taken seriously as a prospect. He hasn't. He came into last year out of shape, which is completely on him. He didn't take hockey seriously enough, obviously. He still has the same issues that he's had since junior, and the same thing that has plagued him at the professional level: he has little hockey IQ, at all. He doesn't put himself in good enough positions to be an effective offensive player, he doesn't drive a line, and the physical aspect of his game that was supposed to be his calling card has been missing since his Hitmen days.

Again, you are citing a couple very specific examples of players that actually panned out to be solid NHL'ers. However if you look at the list of comparable point producers from their first 3 years after being drafted, Virtanen's comparables show a player that is a bottom 6 forward rather than a top 6 guy. For every player like Doan or Bertuzzi that someone brings up, there are dozens of more players that didn't pan out. 

 

So many people are disappointing with Jake because not only has he been a disappointment in his own development, i.e producing offense at a poor AHL level, he also has been disappointing relative to his peers right after he was selected. I can't remember how many arguments I had with other Canucks fans after Jake was drafted arguing Ehlers/Nylander were too small, nothing special, would get pushed around etc. After drafting Boeser, Juolevi and Pettersson, 3 players who are extremely skilled and similarly built to Nylander/Ehlers, those people have changed their tune. 

[aGENT]

20 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

 

That's not how i've read it, to me it's being portrayed as "these players broke out later so we shouldn't be worried about how Jake as played up to this point" and because of it is void of any criticism.

But then you'd be making the same mistake as people taking ANY criticism as:

 

Jake is a worthless, bust, waste of a 6th pick who hasn't done crap and will amount to nothing!!! 

 

22 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Exactly, it is too soon but his progressing, maturity, and production has been disappointing.  Green did say he started getting thing by the end of the year but we will see how that transitioned this summer.  I do think he will still amount to a NHL player but into a middle 6 type role player in the like of a Hansen or torres, which I would be happy with.

 

It absolutely has been disappointing thus far. Or at least until ~midway last year anyway. IMO, he showed signs of pulling up, out of the tailspin. Time will tell if that's the case or not.

 

IMO, he could still theoretically be a 'top 6' player in as much as Burrows (or Hansen) was a complimentary 'top 6' player when with the twins. But yeah, on his own, I'd say it's far more likely he's what would be considered 'middle 6' caliber if he can indeed continue to improve. But was that ever not the case? Perhaps people's (out of whack) expectations of a 6th OA pick and/or read of Virtanen's draft year skill set are as much at fault here as Virtanen's maturity and stumbling through his first couple D+ seasons...

 

36 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

This year is huge for him.  He needs to show some consistent progress, our pool is filling up fast and a franchise wont just wait around leaving a roster spot open for him in hopes he does figure it out.  I do think he will and hopefully find away to provide some benefit at the NHL level but another slow year and there could be a good chance he's package up in a trade. 

No argument here. He needs to show he's learned from his mistakes and can build off the good things he started to do at the end of last season and still become the player he was drafted to be. One of the reasons I loved the Gadjovich pick, is that he especially, is going to be breathing down Jake's neck looking for his role and his minutes. If that doesn't keep him HIGHLY motivated....

 

That said, short of a dominating preseason, I think and hope he still spends at least part of this season in Utica. He should have far better offensive players to play with (play drivers) and can hopefully build upon his more complete game and work level from last year to get some of his offensive mojo back. Then come up later this year/next year and hit the ground running.

[stawns]

39 minutes ago, Toews said:

The only way people can actually say that they aren't disappointed with his progression thus far is if they had absolutely no expectations to begin with. That seems very unlikely as just about everyone has expectations of a top 10 pick. Virtanen coming off of a shoulder injury in his draft + 1 year has a mediocre season in the WHL as well as a mediocre WJC. His goal totals dropped, he barely progressed. He showed little to no growth in his offensive game. After the Hitmen season had ended he played in the AHL including the Comets Calder Cup run and was entirely inconsequential. 

 

Fast forward to the next season where he made the team when he should not have and was either benched or played 7-12 minutes of sheltered ice time every night. He had an extremely poor WJC, but I will excuse this one as the entire Team Canada team was poor. He came back to the NHL and for a handful of games he seemed to perform and looked like a NHL player. He was far from exceptional though, he was merely passable IMO. 

 

He arrived at camp the next season badly out of shape. The team benched the big Russian D prospect for the same transgression but Virtanen got to stay up and play games. Despite this he went to media and complained about his usage and not getting to play with the linemates of his choice. He was sent down to Utica where he had the worst production in the AHL for a top 10 pick since Zach Hamill. The only two first round picks who had prolonged NHL careers with that kind of production in recent years are Colby Armstrong and Ben Eager, which shows that it is not only rare but it's also not exactly vaunted company to be in either. 

 

So let's see he hasn't performed up to expectations on the ice. He has up until recently shown a lack of commitment in his approach to his off-ice habits. His offensive game is still very rudimentary in the sense that the only time he actually looks dangerous is when he gets the jump on a defender at his own blue line. His board work and forechecking game is far from exceptional which you need to have if you cannot produce offensively.

 

To say that people had unreasonable expectations of him is laughable as even if you had the bare minimum expectations of a top 10 pick you would still have to be disappointed with his progression. The only lie is the part where you implied that the poster you quoted was calling him a bust. In fact I would say even his expectations are higher than I have. I estimate Jake's realistic potential to be a player in the mold of Tom Wilson and that's if he has put his shoulder troubles behind him and can play more physically than he did last year in the AHL. At this point all of Boeser, Goldobin, Gaudette and Dahlen have shown more progression in their games and I would sooner bet on one of them than Jake. 

I would say 99% of the posters here haven't actually seen him play in Utica, yet still they have the information necessary to slam him

[elvis15]

On 9/5/2017 at 7:54 AM, ForsbergTheGreat said:

It seems like there are two extreme sides here.  One side thinks Jake is going to have a Doan like career and another side seems to think Jake will never play a full season in the NHL and he's likely going to end up somewhere in the middle.

...

The side that has a logical and measured response has gotten tired of debating with the polar opposites posters. There's still a few posts, but they get drowned out pretty quickly.

[Alflives]

On 2017-09-05 at 0:18 PM, stawns said:

I would say 99% of the posters here haven't actually seen him play in Utica, yet still they have the information necessary to slam him

How many of us have seem Jake play while slim and in proper condition?  He's going to really surprise a lot people with just how friggin good he is.

[Stelar]

I think we can safely boil down the entire 941 page thread to this.  Jake hasn't lived up to what most people's expectations are so far.  He is still young.  He still has 2-3 years to show development or he will most likely be deemed a bust pick at 6 overall.  For me, still too early to judge.  

[pluralsight]

1 hour ago, Stelar said:

I think we can safely boil down the entire 941 page thread to this.  Jake hasn't lived up to what most people's expectations are so far.  He is still young.  He still has 2-3 years to show development or he will most likely be deemed a bust pick at 6 overall.  For me, still too early to judge.  

While I agree with you that he is still young, but if we expect him to be the top 6 power forward that he was drafted to become, he needs to make strides offensively this season. He's in his 3rd year of pro hockey, the point where most scorers break out (whether that be in the NHL or AHL). If he spends most of the season in the AHL, I expect him to score at least 20 goals, and if he doesn't he will likely cap out at Jannik Hansen potential (and there's nothing wrong with that). 

[BCNate]

1 hour ago, pluralsight said:

While I agree with you that he is still young, but if we expect him to be the top 6 power forward that he was drafted to become, he needs to make strides offensively this season. He's in his 3rd year of pro hockey, the point where most scorers break out (whether that be in the NHL or AHL). If he spends most of the season in the AHL, I expect him to score at least 20 goals, and if he doesn't he will likely cap out at Jannik Hansen potential (and there's nothing wrong with that). 

We should have a pretty decent team in Utica this year.  I agree that the 20 goal benchmark, and 35-40 points should be an expectation of him this year.

[Rob_Zepp]

On 9/5/2017 at 6:54 AM, ForsbergTheGreat said:

It seems like there are two extreme sides here.  One side thinks Jake is going to have a Doan like career and another side seems to think Jake will never play a full season in the NHL and he's likely going to end up somewhere in the middle.

 

Let’s be honest, since Jake was drafted he hasn’t done anything other than a few very small streaks of showing he’s going to be something more than a career AHLer.  He’s been a disappointing 6th overall pick in every way since being drafted, to say he hasn’t would just be a down right lie. 

It isn't a lie to say that he has 12th most NHL games played and 14th most NHL goals when you look at the entire 2014 first round picks.  It isn't a lie to say the fifth and seventh picks from the draft have yet to play a single NHL game.  It isn't a lie to say that power forwards tend to develop more slowly.

 

Soooo, when one says that his in the upper half of his draft year first round picks in NHL goals and games played, plays a position that is traditionally slower in developing (power forward) and has by all accounts of his AHL coach (and now possibly NHL coach) improved a lot in key areas last year - where are the lies?   Did you expect him to develop unusually faster than, say, a Bertuzzi?   Is he at 20 supposed to be far ahead of others who were 22 to 23 before landing steady NHL jobs?

 

One person's disappointment is another's simply being patient and realistic.   No lie.

[stawns]

11 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

It isn't a lie to say that he has 12th most NHL games played and 14th most NHL goals when you look at the entire 2014 first round picks.  It isn't a lie to say the fifth and seventh picks from the draft have yet to play a single NHL game.  It isn't a lie to say that power forwards tend to develop more slowly.

 

Soooo, when one says that his in the upper half of his draft year first round picks in NHL goals and games played, plays a position that is traditionally slower in developing (power forward) and has by all accounts of his AHL coach (and now possibly NHL coach) improved a lot in key areas last year - where are the lies?   Did you expect him to develop unusually faster than, say, a Bertuzzi?   Is he at 20 supposed to be far ahead of others who were 22 to 23 before landing steady NHL jobs?

 

One person's disappointment is another's simply being patient and realistic.   No lie.

The move toward younger, cheaper players on NHL rosters has had a very negative effect on the game, as a whole, if you ask me