Rob_Zepp Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 11 hours ago, The 5th Line said: Aren't we supposed to not overreact to a couple of preseason games? Oh right that's just when a player does bad, if the player does well we start planning the parade. Classic Yes my negativity has spread to the Juolevi thread and is all over the PGT. Just look at all of my nasty comments, everywhere!!! I don't think even the most delusional fan believes their Canucks is SC material for a long while but the point stands - you were so convinced for 900 pages that this kid was a bust that now people seemingly feel justified, perhaps prematurely, in calling you on it. My opinion of Virtanen has been the same then and remains the same now - he has an elite set of skills that is unique to very few players in the league and if the Canucks can harness those skills they have a very special player. I am not thinking that a good camp and two preseason games means anything remotely close to "mission accomplished" but I am very encouraged that he picked right up where he left the AHL season last year in terms of on-ice intensity and that goal he scored was brilliant - not brilliant in terms of talent but it was lucky and last year he was unlucky...his CORSI and just overall shot generation indicates that with just a smidgen of good luck he was over 20 goals in the AHL which isn't bad for a player given the strict assignment of learning the other end of the rink. You could still be right - JV could be a massive bust but I think many (you?) still forget in spite of all the negative things said and essentially the full year in Utica, from his first round class he is still 12th in NHL games and 14th in NHL goals - those are upper first round numbers ... right? If he picks it up this year and the next few and slots into somewhere closer to his draft slot in both categories plus bringing his physical game and speed forecheck then don't the Canucks actually then have a great pick on their hands? PS 0 If you do move over the the OJ thread or any other prospect that you make you next project, assuming Jake becomes difficult to do if he continues to develop in a positive direction, we'll see you there. Eventually you will find a prospect that you obsess on that does fail and your nasty comments will be justified - I guess that will be your day to celebrate! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ihatetomatoes Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 11 hours ago, The 5th Line said: If this is in fact the new Jake Virtanen he is still just a 4th liner at best on what is likely to be a bottom feeding team. He's in his draft +4 and he is playing okay in preseason, he's not dominating, he's not lighting it up, he is pretty much right where I thought he would be in terms of development. People calling posters out because the thread is quiet when he plays well? He's a 6th overall pick he is expected to play well...in preseason...in his draft +4.... People are just excited that he looks like he has the potential to be an NHL player, even if its in a 4th line or 3rd line role. Heck I've $&!# on Jake since the day he was drafted and watching these games gives me a little hope that he may not be a total bust and can contribute in a bottom 6 role. That's something to get a little excited over considering his progression over the last few years. Yes it sucks that we drafted him at 6 but for now if he can contribute at all its a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckledraggin Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Fun fact: for the 1st time in Jake's pro career he won't be the youngest player on the team. With age and experience he appears more mature in his personal life and his game. He is making better reads on the ice and his pinches, the way he is sealing the boards then releasing into the slot at the right times, proves that his time in the AHL taught him something. I know some will insist that IQ is inate and there is no way to learn the game beyond the level that you were born with, but I am seeing with my own eyes a player that has learned how to play the pro game. It must be a miracle. I seriously hope that he starts the year in Utica, because I saw something in the last game that I had never seen before and that is Jake on the penalty kill. I think it would be another valuable coaching tool that could be used to further increase his awareness and positioning that would translate to his 5on5 play. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guntrix Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said: I don't think even the most delusional fan believes their Canucks is SC material for a long while but the point stands - you were so convinced for 900 pages that this kid was a bust that now people seemingly feel justified, perhaps prematurely, in calling you on it. My opinion of Virtanen has been the same then and remains the same now - he has an elite set of skills that is unique to very few players in the league and if the Canucks can harness those skills they have a very special player. I am not thinking that a good camp and two preseason games means anything remotely close to "mission accomplished" but I am very encouraged that he picked right up where he left the AHL season last year in terms of on-ice intensity and that goal he scored was brilliant - not brilliant in terms of talent but it was lucky and last year he was unlucky...his CORSI and just overall shot generation indicates that with just a smidgen of good luck he was over 20 goals in the AHL which isn't bad for a player given the strict assignment of learning the other end of the rink. You could still be right - JV could be a massive bust but I think many (you?) still forget in spite of all the negative things said and essentially the full year in Utica, from his first round class he is still 12th in NHL games and 14th in NHL goals - those are upper first round numbers ... right? If he picks it up this year and the next few and slots into somewhere closer to his draft slot in both categories plus bringing his physical game and speed forecheck then don't the Canucks actually then have a great pick on their hands? PS 0 If you do move over the the OJ thread or any other prospect that you make you next project, assuming Jake becomes difficult to do if he continues to develop in a positive direction, we'll see you there. Eventually you will find a prospect that you obsess on that does fail and your nasty comments will be justified - I guess that will be your day to celebrate! Not sure how you insist on this when posters have already explained why this is faulty logic. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Loving all his takeaways on the back check 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 9 minutes ago, guntrix said: Not sure how you insist on this when posters have already explained why this is faulty logic. Because the logic is fine and how prospects are evaluated - number of games and some performance criteria (simplistic as goals are, it is a criterion). Post all you want, that is how players have comparative evaluations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 20 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Because the logic is fine and how prospects are evaluated - number of games and some performance criteria (simplistic as goals are, it is a criterion). Post all you want, that is how players have comparative evaluations. Ok using that criteria, is MT better than Juolevi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said: I don't think even the most delusional fan believes their Canucks is SC material for a long while but the point stands - you were so convinced for 900 pages that this kid was a bust that now people seemingly feel justified, perhaps prematurely, in calling you on it. My opinion of Virtanen has been the same then and remains the same now - he has an elite set of skills that is unique to very few players in the league and if the Canucks can harness those skills they have a very special player. I don't want to speak for @The 5th Line but as far as I can remember he has never used the word "bust". He has pointed out repeatedly that Jake's development has gone poorly and he is not very high on his potential. I think any reasonable fan should be able to admit that Jake's development thus far has been a disappointment. 1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said: I am not thinking that a good camp and two preseason games means anything remotely close to "mission accomplished" but I am very encouraged that he picked right up where he left the AHL season last year in terms of on-ice intensity and that goal he scored was brilliant - not brilliant in terms of talent but it was lucky and last year he was unlucky...his CORSI and just overall shot generation indicates that with just a smidgen of good luck he was over 20 goals in the AHL which isn't bad for a player given the strict assignment of learning the other end of the rink. It seems whenever he has a good set of game, scores a nice goal, throws a nice hit that people come on here and rag on those that have been critical of him. @The 5th Linehas admitted in the past when he scores a good goal, or has a good game so it's not like he has disappeared from the thread when things have gone well. It's just that the good moments have been so few and far between that it all ends up sounding negative. Not one person including 5th Line has professed a desire to see this guy fail. We all want him to be the best player that he can become especially with the team desperately needing good young players to step up so we don't have to see scrubs like Megna on the PP. As far as the Corsi argument, the person that compiled the statistics only did it for a very small sample size so that argument should not be used to prop up his play. It is true that his S% was low but how much of that is luck and not poor shot selection? I have mentioned in the past in this thread that I was not happy with his shot selection. In any case last year was the first sample size we had of him in the AHL. This year we shall see if his S% normalizes to a higher value or whether it is a case of what you see is what you get. 1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said: You could still be right - JV could be a massive bust but I think many (you?) still forget in spite of all the negative things said and essentially the full year in Utica, from his first round class he is still 12th in NHL games and 14th in NHL goals - those are upper first round numbers ... right? If he picks it up this year and the next few and slots into somewhere closer to his draft slot in both categories plus bringing his physical game and speed forecheck then don't the Canucks actually then have a great pick on their hands? Again @The 5th Line has never called him a bust, that seems to be a word that seems to be almost exclusively be used by Jake's most ardent defenders. It seems especially disingenuous to invent what the other side is saying just so that you can attack a strawman. Also @ForsbergTheGreat has already pointed out the fallacy of using the games played and goals argument. I am unsure why you have not replied to that post but continue to push this fault logic. 1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said: PS 0 If you do move over the the OJ thread or any other prospect that you make you next project, assuming Jake becomes difficult to do if he continues to develop in a positive direction, we'll see you there. Eventually you will find a prospect that you obsess on that does fail and your nasty comments will be justified - I guess that will be your day to celebrate! Lmao @ "nasty comments".@The 5th Line is not on a mission to attack prospects. He has praised them when it is warranted and criticized them when he they have not played well. Just because some here think any and all prospects are above criticism does not mean that people like him should not contributing to these threads. From his D+1 to his D+4 year he has commented on his deficiencies and been more on point than any other poster in this thread. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Ok using that criteria, is MT better than Juolevi? No one was saying better or worse, but MT is further along his NHL career development path, yes he is. Not sure what discussion you were in but that is one I though I was having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattJVD Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 I've really liked Jake's camp so far. Good hustle, getting involved in plays, skating his ass off, and adding some goals. I'm high on his chances of making the team this year. It'll be interesting to see who is cut once the 'real' team gets back from China. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, Toews said: I don't want to speak for @The 5th Line but as far as I can remember he has never used the word "bust". He has pointed out repeatedly that Jake's development has gone poorly and he is not very high on his potential. I think any reasonable fan should be able to admit that Jake's development thus far has been a disappointment. It seems whenever he has a good set of game, scores a nice goal, throws a nice hit that people come on here and rag on those that have been critical of him. @The 5th Linehas admitted in the past when he scores a good goal, or has a good game so it's not like he has disappeared from the thread when things have gone well. It's just that the good moments have been so few and far between that it all ends up sounding negative. Not one person including 5th Line has professed a desire to see this guy fail. We all want him to be the best player that he can become especially with the team desperately needing good young players to step up so we don't have to see scrubs like Megna on the PP. As far as the Corsi argument, the person that compiled the statistics only did it for a very small sample size so that argument should not be used to prop up his play. It is true that his S% was low but how much of that is luck and not poor shot selection? I have mentioned in the past in this thread that I was not happy with his shot selection. In any case last year was the first sample size we had of him in the AHL. This year we shall see if his S% normalizes to a higher value or whether it is a case of what you see is what you get. Again @The 5th Line has never called him a bust, that seems to be a word that seems to be almost exclusively be used by Jake's most ardent defenders. It seems especially disingenuous to invent what the other side is saying just so that you can attack a strawman. Also @ForsbergTheGreat has already pointed out the fallacy of using the games played and goals argument. I am unsure why you have not replied to that post but continue to push this fault logic. Lmao @ "nasty comments".@The 5th Line is not on a mission to attack prospects. He has praised them when it is warranted and criticized them when he they have not played well. Just because some here think any and all prospects are above criticism does not mean that people like him should not contributing to these threads. From his D+1 to his D+4 year he has commented on his deficiencies and been more on point than any other poster in this thread. I must read posts he makes that are different than the ones you are reading. I have replied to FtG may times, you and I seem to read different posts. I think 5th line is fine on some of his points, and I actually agree with many, but I have seen outright unfair hostility and even the word "bust" so not sure what else I can say on the matter as we seem to read different posts. I remain in the camp that no prospect can be dismissed before their time and their time is most certainly not in the first three years after their draft year. It is a very rare player who is what they are going to be at 18 to 20 years of age. The vast majority of NHL players take time to develop and to expect a player, just because he is drafted by your home team, to develop more quickly than he is developing and turn that into pretty intense criticism of both the player and the pick is to me lacking in understanding hockey but that is my opinion, clearly not yours. JV is not a lock to have a great career - but he sure has the tools to do so and they are in a uniquely gifted package. I choose to see that potential and look for signs of its emergence and I am seeing that since about last January. You don't. Fifth line doesn't. FtG doesn't. That is all OK. Time will prove out what the player will be but I contend that this writing off prospects too early is simply at odds with the history of the sport. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasCanuck Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 41 minutes ago, J.R. said: Loving all his takeaways on the back check I think he's got a good shot at making the team this year. Even if its on 4th line. Considering the depth we have in camp, we could wind up with a 4th line that is capable of playing 12 - 13 min per night and really having a truly balanced 4 lines for the first time in years. How awesome would it be if the Sedins could just be called on for 15 min per night this year and have balanced scoring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 30 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Because the logic is fine and how prospects are evaluated - number of games and some performance criteria (simplistic as goals are, it is a criterion). Post all you want, that is how players have comparative evaluations. Well then its not a meaningful criteria. It's obvious that on a team with horrible depth that players less deserving of minutes somehow find themselves in playing situations. Even Benning has admitted that putting him in the NHL may have been a mistake. So it doesn't seem like the GM thinks your criteria has much merit. Brett Connolly played in the NHL due to the same circumstances, no one cared to call him a success because he played 68 games that one year. He was mediocre just like Jake was. Jake could have easily been replaced by some other replacement player and it would not have made a difference to the success of that team. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, Toews said: Well then its not a meaningful criteria. It's obvious that on a team with horrible depth that players less deserving of minutes somehow find themselves in playing situations. Even Benning has admitted that putting him in the NHL may have been a mistake. So it doesn't seem like the GM thinks your criteria has much merit. Brett Connolly played in the NHL due to the same circumstances, no one cared to call him a success because he played 68 games that one year. He was mediocre just like Jake was. Jake could have easily been replaced by some other replacement player and it would not have made a difference to the success of that team. Horrible or not, it is a criteria that is use. Each GM will modify but games played and performance attained remain the comparative benchmark - just like for goalies with minutes, SV% and shutouts with the last two being horribly unfair stats that are many times more an indication of the team's play than the goalies. Anyway, as I have from the start of this discussion on JV I feel his unique set of skills are extremely well suited to the modern NHL game and I think he has a really good chance to make it as an impactful player and justifying the faith the Canucks put in him by drafting him. Others think differently. I also don't believe that two exhibition games should get anyone on or off any wagon they like but I think that they show a continuance of progression from his strong second half of last year (Green's words), that is very encouraging. Given that his NHL production to date (goals...probably even better on hits for example) is upper half of the first round picks that year, he already has a base to build on too. Not sure what is so complicated about that. He still will likely be youngest player on his team this year if he makes it and even in AHL one of the youngest there too if he goes there. Patience may or may not be rewarded but I am happy practicing it. Some are not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Toews said: I don't want to speak for @The 5th Line but as far as I can remember he has never used the word "bust". He has pointed out repeatedly that Jake's development has gone poorly and he is not very high on his potential. I think any reasonable fan should be able to admit that Jake's development thus far has been a disappointment. It seems whenever he has a good set of game, scores a nice goal, throws a nice hit that people come on here and rag on those that have been critical of him. @The 5th Linehas admitted in the past when he scores a good goal, or has a good game so it's not like he has disappeared from the thread when things have gone well. It's just that the good moments have been so few and far between that it all ends up sounding negative. Not one person including 5th Line has professed a desire to see this guy fail. We all want him to be the best player that he can become especially with the team desperately needing good young players to step up so we don't have to see scrubs like Megna on the PP. As far as the Corsi argument, the person that compiled the statistics only did it for a very small sample size so that argument should not be used to prop up his play. It is true that his S% was low but how much of that is luck and not poor shot selection? I have mentioned in the past in this thread that I was not happy with his shot selection. In any case last year was the first sample size we had of him in the AHL. This year we shall see if his S% normalizes to a higher value or whether it is a case of what you see is what you get. Again @The 5th Line has never called him a bust, that seems to be a word that seems to be almost exclusively be used by Jake's most ardent defenders. It seems especially disingenuous to invent what the other side is saying just so that you can attack a strawman. Also @ForsbergTheGreat has already pointed out the fallacy of using the games played and goals argument. I am unsure why you have not replied to that post but continue to push this fault logic. Lmao @ "nasty comments".@The 5th Line is not on a mission to attack prospects. He has praised them when it is warranted and criticized them when he they have not played well. Just because some here think any and all prospects are above criticism does not mean that people like him should not contributing to these threads. From his D+1 to his D+4 year he has commented on his deficiencies and been more on point than any other poster in this thread. Actually...the 5th line has stated something to the tune of, but not word for word "I cannot wait until he busts so I can finally see Benning fired" He's been readily hoping he busts to be proven right. Numerous times. Edited September 18, 2017 by Warhippy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: I must read posts he makes that are different than the ones you are reading. I have replied to FtG may times, you and I seem to read different posts. I think 5th line is fine on some of his points, and I actually agree with many, but I have seen outright unfair hostility and even the word "bust" so not sure what else I can say on the matter as we seem to read different posts. I remain in the camp that no prospect can be dismissed before their time and their time is most certainly not in the first three years after their draft year. It is a very rare player who is what they are going to be at 18 to 20 years of age. The vast majority of NHL players take time to develop and to expect a player, just because he is drafted by your home team, to develop more quickly than he is developing and turn that into pretty intense criticism of both the player and the pick is to me lacking in understanding hockey but that is my opinion, clearly not yours. JV is not a lock to have a great career - but he sure has the tools to do so and they are in a uniquely gifted package. I choose to see that potential and look for signs of its emergence and I am seeing that since about last January. You don't. Fifth line doesn't. FtG doesn't. That is all OK. Time will prove out what the player will be but I contend that this writing off prospects too early is simply at odds with the history of the sport. You are free to quote the posts where the word "bust" was used. Dismissed maybe not but we can use their track record as a predictor of success based on historical trends. I am not of the school of thought that says a player should be given a mulligan for 3 years, 18-20 is a critical period in a prospect's development. If his progress stalls or if he regresses then those are absolutely predictors of success. I think its especially arrogant to assume that someone with a different opinion than yours is "lacking in understanding of hockey". But that's my opinion, clearly not yours. I don't claim to see the future. I have made no grand proclamations. I have only used his track record to predict what kind of a career he might have based on my history following prospects. I don't see that as "writing off prospects" I just see that as tempering expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: No one was saying better or worse, but MT is further along his NHL career development path, yes he is. Not sure what discussion you were in but that is one I though I was having. Thanks and now I got you cornered Does the fact that Jake has more goals and games played than Nick Schmaltz mean he's further his NHL career development path? Only an idiot would say yes, (rob I know you are stubborn but I don't think you're an idiot). What jake accomplished 2 years ago doesn't have an impact on where we rate the player is today. Yakupov has more career goals and games played than Teravainen are you really going to stand by that logic, which would indicate that Yakupov is further his NHL career development path? See how stupid and flawed that logic is.... There are a number of factors that go into wether a player plays NHL games early in their career or not. Things like the team they got drafted to, positional depth, commitment to collage and individual physical build, play a far more important role in a young kid, playing NHL games. Development isn't a constant forward movement of progression, players can and often do take steps back in their development. In order to get an accurate comparison in where a player is at in their development, it would be common sense for one to use the most recent year to get a more accurate comparable. (Which I did and you ignored), especially when all first round picks are at the point to be playing within the only two NA pro leagues. So far this year, Jake has been playing good in the preseason and it is what he needs to keep doing if he wants to earn a spot on this team. Hopefully these games help him build confidence to be that PWF this team has been lacking. Edited September 18, 2017 by ForsbergTheGreat 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Horrible or not, it is a criteria that is use. Each GM will modify but games played and performance attained remain the comparative benchmark - just like for goalies with minutes, SV% and shutouts with the last two being horribly unfair stats that are many times more an indication of the team's play than the goalies. Anyway, as I have from the start of this discussion on JV I feel his unique set of skills are extremely well suited to the modern NHL game and I think he has a really good chance to make it as an impactful player and justifying the faith the Canucks put in him by drafting him. Others think differently. I also don't believe that two exhibition games should get anyone on or off any wagon they like but I think that they show a continuance of progression from his strong second half of last year (Green's words), that is very encouraging. Given that his NHL production to date (goals...probably even better on hits for example) is upper half of the first round picks that year, he already has a base to build on too. Not sure what is so complicated about that. He still will likely be youngest player on his team this year if he makes it and even in AHL one of the youngest there too if he goes there. Patience may or may not be rewarded but I am happy practicing it. Some are not. You are correct that games played is a benchmark for performance but when a sample size of 65-68 games is used, it is not very meaningful. Many of those games Jake barely played 7-10 minutes and was a healthy scratch often during the season. I don't see that season as a barometer of success, you clearly do. Your argument is far from complicated, in fact I find it the very opposite, it seems very simplistic. I am more than willing to be patient, I just don't see the point in putting "lipstick on a pig" so to speak. 14 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Actually...the 5th line has stated something to the tune of "I cannot wait until he busts so I can finally see Benning fired" He's been readily hoping he busts to be proven right. Numerous times. I will let him defend himself but will say that I have not seen that. Not saying that you are lying but people here seem to read more into posts than is actually there. Edited September 18, 2017 by Toews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 My measly 2 cents on Jake I stated numerous times that this would be the year he needs to come in, show he's fit, show he's hungry and start showing people he belongs. He's a long LONG way to go still to show some of that, but he's on the right road. Would like to see him and Boeser in the AHL with Dahlen and Goldobin and allow the team to sink or swim based on the current line up and ves they have. Allowing Virtanen and the rest of the under 23 crowd to start gelling and winning as a group instead of living in the fishbowl of Vancouver 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Toews said: You are correct that games played is a benchmark for performance but when a sample size of 65-68 games is used, it is not very meaningful. Many of those games Jake barely played 7-10 minutes and was a healthy scratch often during the season. I don't see that season as a barometer of success, you clearly do. Your argument is far from complicated, in fact I find it the very opposite, it seems very simplistic. I am more than willing to be patient, I just see the point in putting "lipstick on a pig" so to speak. I will let him defend himself but will say that I have not seen that. Not saying that you are lying but people here seem to read more into posts than is actually there. As I said, something to the tune of. I took him to task and was really angry over that specific post. When he fails, if he busts, when he flames out. Not necessarily using the B word as it was. But very clearly stating he hopes he fails to see Benning fired and that he can be proven right. Before you ask, no I refuse to go through the last 250 odd pages to look for that particular interaction but fi you'd like to look go right ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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