Where'd Luongo? Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Constructive criticism was and remains more than fine - in fact, it is the time-tested right of being a fan to offer thoughts on why your young players are or are not developing in the way that best helps your team. However, with this player the criticism left constructive at the station very early on and headed through person attacks onto complete bullsh*t about sightings of him doing things in places he never was let alone doing those things. Further, people who were actually watching him play in the AHL (live or though feeds) were totally ignored which, again, can be fine but then criticism of them started down the aggressive line (seems this thread, more than any, led to a lot of "timeouts" and permanent "cuts" to some posters). No one was saying you cannot constructively criticize this or any other player, it was the manner of that criticism that was waaaay overboard so many times and any attempt to point out factual conditions that could refute (e.g. discuss) those positions was so aggressively attacked one had to wonder what personal investment some people had in making sure this particular player failed or had personally wronged them. Just read some of the posts in this thread - pretty important to a bunch that this player be either seen as a failure OR that because this failure was not developing as quickly as they wanted, it was some form of a personal insult to the poster. At the start of my personal involvement in the thread, I was entirely indifferent to this player but after watching the direction the thread and the nature of the mean-spirited comments sprinkled throughout some decent constructive criticism compelled me to start to say "whoa, give the kid a break and let's be a little patient people" sort of things. Even pointing out his progress in compare to his draft year cohort (other first round picks) was somehow seen as a "can't do that, it interferes with our narrative". This player may or may not become all a sixth overall pick could become but he certainly was naturally blessed with all the tools to do precisely that. Now that he has taken some good steps (which didn't start in Training Camp, they were evident in Utica) in the right direction at lot of the more personal and mean-spirited comments have significantly decreased which is nice to see. I swear I saw him eating meatball subs at subway! WHY WOULD I LIE!!?? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willpower Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Sorry if someone else mentioned it, but this thread was starting to make my head explode. There's a lot of mind-blowing stuff in here about Jake's talent. But for me that is probably secondary. Jake *sounds* like a more mature person in his recent interviews. Which, aside from his obvious progress with Green last year, makes me think that he is far more ready now for his shot in the NHL than he was when he first showed up. He hadn't matured enough as a person or player, regardless of his skill and size, and that was pretty clear in all of the interviews, video blurbs, etc. He's grown as a person, as well as a player, in this past year. I was admittedly excited to see a homegrown kid make the club last time, but you could see in games that he wasn't ready. I hold a lot more optimism for him this time around. He seems to have gained much more of an understanding of what is required of him, on and off the ice. I'd be willing to bet that if you spoke to some of the older guys in the locker room, they'd be saying stuff about how he's got a different presence in the room. Way to go, Jake. Take your experiences and make the most of them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiftynifty Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 On 2017-10-03 at 1:15 PM, Ray_Cathode said: With a good playmaker on his line, he could do that - he has the speed to get around people, he has a very good shot, he is strong enough to assert himself around the net,and he can bounce defencemen off the puck - with a wee more experience he might make an interesting penalty killer, too - the strength to pull past a defender on a turnover, and the speed to not see him again. I hope Jake can play with a playmaker, but the most likey outcome for him is on a checking-line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guntrix Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 On October 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM, Hutton Wink said: ...some of us which after 700 or so pages finally had enough of 5th Line, the frog, and other incessant (obsessed) whingers. Thanks for babysitting them in the meantime, and Jake improving was of course the best way to shut them up and stop their defecating all over this place. lmao. There's something inherently wrong with coming to conclusions over a few pre-season games against AHLers and fringe roster players. Can't wait to see the backtracking when posters here eventually realize Jake isn't the 54 goal pace player they think he is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 18 minutes ago, guntrix said: Can't wait to see the backtracking when posters here eventually realize Jake isn't the 54 goal pace player they think he is. Who thinks this?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 47 minutes ago, J.R. said: Who thinks this?! I have been asking for a while now who are the ones that referring to him as a "bum" or a "bust". I have been told "they are out there". I have also been told that people want him to "fail hard" but I haven't seen anyone saying anything of the sort. Projecting where he ends up doesn't mean people want him to fail. I am sure we would all love it if he surpassed McDavid but obviously that isn't realistic. It doesn't mean people hate him, it's just a prediction based on his performance and development. Some seem to be against any discussion of that sort though and screech "PATIENCE!" and cite his age as a reason why we are not allowed to have that discussion. "How dare you write him off!" A poster earlier described it as "picking on Virtanen" as if people who are criticizing him are somehow engaging in cyberbullying. In this case the supposed "victim" is someone who likely does not even know about the presence of this thread and likely would not give a rat's posterior what we think anyway. Unlike some on here I cannot read people's "feelings" through text. I can only go by what they are posting on here. It seems people read what they want to read in posts and create straw man arguments to attack rather than actually address real posts and refute them with counterarguments. Argue what you want to believe that people are saying rather than what is actually being said. Unfortunately the result is that there is no productive discourse just sniping back and forth. Virtanen is still at this point an unestablished NHLer, he will have his ups and downs and in the meantime people from both "sides" will get in their "I told you so"s when he goes through periods where he is productive or when he has a slump. Its ironic that a poster referred to certain posts as "defecating", his only contributions to this thread are attacking those he does not agree with. There hasn't been one post of substance, just a bunch of (as Hippy would put it) wet shart. Edited October 5, 2017 by Toews 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tystick Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Poor guy. I don't think any of our other prospects receive this much mixed attention. I've believed in Jake since the 2014 draft thread. He's top 6 in 2-3 more years. If that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Tystick said: Poor guy. I don't think any of our other prospects receive this much mixed attention. I've believed in Jake since the 2014 draft thread. He's top 6 in 2-3 more years. If that. If I may ask, why exactly is he a "poor guy"? He just had a very productive preseason, made the NHL and seems to be on a trajectory to have a long NHL career in some capacity. Even if he never progresses from this point onward he will still likely be richer and more successful than anyone on this forum. The attention that he has received is because his development has been rocky and he was the highest pick the Canucks had since the twins. The lack of forward prospects in the organization and the lack of offensive fire power on the team just magnified the focus on him. My sense is that the posters in this thread have more issues with each other than with Jake. It's just the culmination of 3 years of infighting. I will admit I have criticized him and even doubted him but it's not like I have stopped cheering for him. It's not like I would go up to his face and tell him that he will be a 3rd liner. I would wish him luck and tell him that we are all rooting for his success. It seems that people think that the thoughts expressed on this forum has some effect on the player. It's a strange sort of narcissism. Criticizing or whiteknighting, neither have any effect so it's pointless to obsess over what other posters are posting. IMO just post your thoughts, engage in discussion and be respectful to someone who does not share your opinion. Edited October 5, 2017 by Toews 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guntrix Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, J.R. said: Who thinks this?! It was hyperbole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Just now, guntrix said: It was hyperbole Adding to the discussion as usual I see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attila Umbrus Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Even if Jake doesn't turn out to be a top 6 forward he has the power to take over games whether he scores or not. He is a player that I don't measure by points entirely. He brings so much more to the table, if he keeps his consistency up, he stays fit, and keeps his head in the game he will be an impact player no matter what. With his shot he'll get his goals whether it's on a third line or higher. Torres -> Hansen -> Perry...is the range i'm predicting him in (obviously Perry is a long range goal, but I think he has the chops to do it). Either one of those players i'd take on my team any day (minus Raffi's head hunting rep). We can all agree our 3rd line during the 2011 run was about as high end as it gets... Torres, Malholtra, Hansen...dang I still love that line! They terrorized their opponents, won key faceoffs, put a lot of pressure on the ozone and kept their dzone clean, and scored at 2nd line 5V5 rates while getting no power play time. That has amazing value to any team. Now I know Jake is only one guy but with our other prospects coming through the pipeline i'm sure we'll be able to replicate this again in the future. It's looking bright fella's, and here's to hoping Jake proves all his doubters wrong this season. He has went through a major transformation since last year. He's really growing up and starting to understand his "niche" in this game. He wants to make a positive impact on and off the ice and it's great to see the change in his attitude. It will pay off big time for the club. All the best to ya Jake, go prove em wrong! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpn1 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 17 minutes ago, Attila Umbrus said: Even if Jake doesn't turn out to be a top 6 forward he has the power to take over games whether he scores or not. He is a player that I don't measure by points entirely. He brings so much more to the table, if he keeps his consistency up, he stays fit, and keeps his head in the game he will be an impact player no matter what. With his shot he'll get his goals whether it's on a third line or higher. Torres -> Hansen -> Perry...is the range i'm predicting him in (obviously Perry is a long range goal, but I think he has the chops to do it). Either one of those players i'd take on my team any day (minus Raffi's head hunting rep). We can all agree our 3rd line during the 2011 run was about as high end as it gets... Torres, Malholtra, Hansen...dang I still love that line! They terrorized their opponents, won key faceoffs, put a lot of pressure on the ozone and kept their dzone clean, and scored at 2nd line 5V5 rates while getting no power play time. That has amazing value to any team. Now I know Jake is only one guy but with our other prospects coming through the pipeline i'm sure we'll be able to replicate this again in the future. It's looking bright fella's, and here's to hoping Jake proves all his doubters wrong this season. He has went through a major transformation since last year. He's really growing up and starting to understand his "niche" in this game. He wants to make a positive impact on and off the ice and it's great to see the change in his attitude. It will pay off big time for the club. All the best to ya Jake, go prove em wrong! On a side note I remember Howie Meaker Saying, He can't skate, he can't shoot and he can't score but boy can he play hockey. This statement just gave me a flash back to my childhood and watching the Howie Meaker Hockey School and Peter Puck. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tystick Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Toews said: If I may ask, why exactly is he a "poor guy"? He just had a very productive preseason, made the NHL and seems to be on a trajectory to have a long NHL career in some capacity. Even if he never progresses from this point onward he will still likely be richer and more successful than anyone on this forum. The attention that he has received is because his development has been rocky and he was the highest pick the Canucks had since the twins. The lack of forward prospects in the organization and the lack of offensive fire power on the team just magnified the focus on him. My sense is that the posters in this thread have more issues with each other than with Jake. It's just the culmination of 3 years of infighting. I will admit I have criticized him and even doubted him but it's not like I have stopped cheering for him. It's not like I would go up to his face and tell him that he will be a 3rd liner. I would wish him luck and tell him that we are all rooting for his success. It seems that people think that the thoughts expressed on this forum has some effect on the player. It's a strange sort of narcissism. Criticizing or whiteknighting, neither have any effect so it's pointless to obsess over what other posters are posting. IMO just post your thoughts, engage in discussion and be respectful to someone who does not share your opinion. He will most likely receive unnecessary criticism till he proves everyone wrong. I just personally think it's silly, but I respect everyone's opinion. Edited October 5, 2017 by Tystick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekey Pete Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Toews said: I have been asking for a while now who are the ones that referring to him as a "bum" or a "bust". Here are some examples. You're looking for someone to use the word "Bum" or "bust", that's not the point. Referring to a prospect as having no skill, a colossal failure as a pick, doing nothing positive since draft, is the same thing as claiming a prospect is a bust. How else would you describe a player that is a bust? The point is select few, mostly one, poster has been crapping all over Jake for a long time and people are just happy to see them finally eat crow, even if it is only a bit of pre-season success. "JV couldn't score with MacJesus on his line, if we are going to use this argument" "Our guy can't even get in to the lineup over our PTO signing Jack Skille. Nylander is contributing to his team already with 5 points in 4 games and looks like a star in the making. /thread" Original Quote: "Nice try on your BPA spin..Benning scouted Demko extensively at Boston College..and even his first draft alone: Virtanen,McCann,Demko,Tryamkin ..blew away anything that his predecessor ever did...That 2014 draft is shaping up to be one of the best drafts the Canucks have had in over a decade.....You also conveniently forgot to mention Brock Boeser drafted the following year." Reply: "Really? Because Virtanen looks great, right? McCann to eh, 0 points in 10 games this year what a stud. Tryamkin can't even get in good enough shape to play and goalies are unpredictable and we won't know for another 5 years minimum. You say every year GM's make so-so moves? Well every year GM's make good draft picks to" " I feel like I am watching a completely different player than everybody else. I am really freaked out actually, it's like I'm living in my own little world and I see things differently. Me and Alf are gonna be locked up in the psych ward together real soon The ONLY thing he can do is skate. I'm not even gonna bother listing the things he can't do well because the list is endless, he literally doesn't do anything well, other than skate. Do you guys not understand how hard it is to make the NHL? and you are expecting Jake to play a significant role for our team when the only skill he possesses is his skating.. Nail Yakupov was not only the best skater his draft class but he was also one of the most aggressive and physically dominant and he could shoot the puck extremely well but his peanut sized brain didn't get him anywhere....sound familiar? But at least Yakupov worked hard " "Oh thank god Virtanen looks good in this 9 minute highlight video, I was starting to get worried. I'm gonna create a montage of me going bar-down in my backyard and maybe CDC will sign me to an entry level. It's no secret he is a good skater, he needs to work on all other aspects of the game. Aspects that this video does not demonstrate whatsoever" "I'm not trashing Jake at all, I'm trashing the people who down rep me after giving my post game analysis, and then watching those same people get all giddy over one stupid highlight video. Nothing wrong with being excited with a little progress, but don't start crying if someone tells you that he sucked." "Once again, Hutton Wink adding absolutely nothing Jake Virtanen related. His play has been sooo dreadful that all we have in this thread is people like me reminding people that he sucks. And we have people like you who do nothing but complain about people who say he sucks. So unless he starts playing better we are stuck in this vicious circle and rightfully soo..we needed to hit on this pick, no if and's or but's about it. Colossal failure as an organization with such a bare prospects cupboard, and no stanley cup banners, closing in on half a century. If we didn't talk about his struggles there would literally be no other conversation going on. I'm all for listening to people pin point positive details in Jake's game. A poster a page back mentioned he is a great forechecker and I actually agree with that. What do you have to contribute? Nothing? K see ya later" "Nice seeing people finally admit how terrible of a pick this was. Welcome to the dark side" "This is just so not true and you are once again way out of line. Stop complaining about other people complaining, you are starting to make people like me look like angels. The kid has done nothing positive since being drafted and you are accusing people of being silent when he does well..? K, pal " Is that enough for you? Have a look back yourself, there's lots more. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 2 hours ago, Toews said: I have been asking for a while now who are the ones that referring to him as a "bum" or a "bust". I have been told "they are out there". I have also been told that people want him to "fail hard" but I haven't seen anyone saying anything of the sort. Projecting where he ends up doesn't mean people want him to fail. I am sure we would all love it if he surpassed McDavid but obviously that isn't realistic. It doesn't mean people hate him, it's just a prediction based on his performance and development. Some seem to be against any discussion of that sort though and screech "PATIENCE!" and cite his age as a reason why we are not allowed to have that discussion. "How dare you write him off!" A poster earlier described it as "picking on Virtanen" as if people who are criticizing him are somehow engaging in cyberbullying. In this case the supposed "victim" is someone who likely does not even know about the presence of this thread and likely would not give a rat's posterior what we think anyway. Unlike some on here I cannot read people's "feelings" through text. I can only go by what they are posting on here. It seems people read what they want to read in posts and create straw man arguments to attack rather than actually address real posts and refute them with counterarguments. Argue what you want to believe that people are saying rather than what is actually being said. Unfortunately the result is that there is no productive discourse just sniping back and forth. Virtanen is still at this point an unestablished NHLer, he will have his ups and downs and in the meantime people from both "sides" will get in their "I told you so"s when he goes through periods where he is productive or when he has a slump. Its ironic that a poster referred to certain posts as "defecating", his only contributions to this thread are attacking those he does not agree with. There hasn't been one post of substance, just a bunch of (as Hippy would put it) wet shart. There were a lot of them Toews - and you posted in/around many. I just picked a random page and came up with this: I don't understand N4zzy. Someody calls him Jake Virtanbust out of nowhere, and then I chime in and you single me out? I am allowed to call Jake Virtanen a bust at this point in his life. He is the 6th overall pick, the guy we got as a consolation for the $&!#ty Torts year. We could have had so many other good players, but we chose this one. He is a bust. He can't put up points professionally. He has been terrible defensively in the NHL. He rarely looks like he is trying (based on NHL games), he doesn't hit that much, even though that is one of the reasons why he was drafted. He hangs out with Justin Bieber. Embarrassing. It should all outrage you that this guy is a part of our team and the fact that we could have Nylander or Ehlers. I just don't understand how anyone could be satisfied with the position Jake Virtanen finds himself within the organization. He is probably (hopefully) trade bait as soon as his stock rises, god willing. Next page: In my opinion Virtanen is a bust, he's not quick/agile enough and lack's instinct- he's constantly making big loops and turning away from the play which makes him almost alweays the third guy in when in fact with his size he should be first or second. He has weak handles and a slow release. Benning had at least 20 other better picks he could have made, At least he stole McCann though. ...and it continued. The word "bust" isn't key, but all range of equivalents were used. Not a big deal that there was or wasn't such to me, that really never bothered me as much as refusing to acknowledge he had played meaning NHL games, had made some strides in that area in compare to his draft cohorts, had done well last year in AHL and finally, that the personal-attack fabricated non-humourous trollish rumours about him were beyond cool. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attila Umbrus Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, dpn1 said: On a side note I remember Howie Meaker Saying, He can't skate, he can't shoot and he can't score but boy can he play hockey. This statement just gave me a flash back to my childhood and watching the Howie Meaker Hockey School and Peter Puck. LOL, nice. Bringing us way back on that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 4 hours ago, J.R. said: Who thinks this?! Gotta load up on that straw now, to have ammo for knocking it down later. 48 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: The word "bust" isn't key, but all range of equivalents were used. #brutalIQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofsurrey Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Really hoping to see Jake get some time this year playing with Hank and Danny.... That would be incredible to see - maybe as a second line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 13 hours ago, guntrix said: lmao. There's something inherently wrong with coming to conclusions over a few pre-season games against AHLers and fringe roster players. Can't wait to see the backtracking when posters here eventually realize Jake isn't the 54 goal pace player they think he is. Predicting the future is one thing. Expecting an outcome to happen as if you just came from the future puts you in about the same amount of reasoning as the very people who you claim are expecting "the world" from Virtanen. It amuses me sometimes how hypocritical people can be on these boards. lol Why can't we just wait and see how well Virtanen plays or doesn't play rather than expecting silly outcomes, hmm? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 13 hours ago, guntrix said: lmao. There's something inherently wrong with coming to conclusions over a few pre-season games against AHLers and fringe roster players. Can't wait to see the backtracking when posters here eventually realize Jake isn't the 54 goal pace player they think he is. Uh, what posters think that? Clearly he is, at best, a 52 goal scorer. I don't think anyone was so brazen to exaggerate it to 54. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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