Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Putgolzin]

20 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

err WHAT ? 

you think we are going to protect a dude in his early 20s, who is not a grinder and trying to break into the top six, over a dude in his mid 20s, who is a lock in our top six ?! 
I know Virtanen gets a lot of free passes here for being a local boy, but its fantasy land if you think he is more valuable than Baer. 
To me, he is a shade below Roussel on PERFORMANCE. 

Baertschi is a lock in our top 6 when he's healthy because we have no one better - he is (as Alf has been telling us for years) a decent placeholder. 

I like Baertschi fine, but look at his scoring over the past years, and specifically when he was the age Virtanen is now. The respective year Baertschi scored 6 points in 18 games. He now brings mediocre scoring to the team and is pretty good-ish as a top 6 forward.

As Green would say, Virtanen doesn't need to be in our top 6 to be valuable to our team.

But now he's developing and pushing himself into the top 6 too. 

I don't think there's much of an argument here.

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by nzan

[canuckistani]

3 minutes ago, nzan said:

Baertschi is a lock in our top 6 when he's healthy because we have no one better - he is (as Alf has been telling us for years) a decent placeholder. 

I like Baertschi fine, but look at his scoring over the past years, and specifically when he was the age Virtanen is now. The respective year Baertschi scored 6 points in 18 games. He now brings mediocre scoring to the team and is pretty good-ish as a top 6 forward.

As Green would say, Virtanen doesn't need to be in our top 6 to be valuable to our team.

But now he's developing and pushing himself into the top 6 too. 

I don't think there's much of an argument here.

 

who cares where he was. 
You yourself said Baer is a lock for top six in THIS team when healthy. Virtanen is NOT a lock for top six in THIS team. Same team. virtanen is not a PK-ing, bottom six guy either. 
Right now, Baer is a superior player than Virtanen and that is not in question. 
As i said, once you talk ONLY PERFRORMANCE, Virtanen is not a top performer in this team . And Baer is just a few years older than Virtanen and both are in their 20s. So i don't see why we should prefer the guy who is slightly younger but a lesser player.

 

[WeneedLumme]

20 minutes ago, canuckledraggin said:

Guuntriiiix, Guuuntriiix. How about the 5th line? where are you guys now that this kid is showing he's a top 9 guy?

Looks like they are on vacation and have designated Stani to hold down their spot under the bridge.

Edited December 11, 2018 by WeneedLumme

[Warhippy]

I just need to point this out

 

Rob Neidermeyer, 5th overall

Rick Jackman, 5th overall

2007 Stanley cup winners.

 

Brad Stuart, 3rd overall

Dan Cleary, 13th overall

2008 Stanley cup winners

 

Bill Guerin*, 5th overall

Jordan Staal, 2nd overall

2009 Stanley cup winners

 

My point, because I could go on.  Of those examples Guerin is the only standout really.  Cleary is the latest pick.  But all but 1 of them failed to live up to their draft status yet were still massive parts of stanley cup winning teams.

 

Virtanen, as has been stated before might never be an 80 point player.  But if he's a 10 point playing force in the playoffs over 16 wins than he more than justifies his status as a 6th overall pick

[Putgolzin]

9 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

who cares where he was. 
You yourself said Baer is a lock for top six in THIS team when healthy. Virtanen is NOT a lock for top six in THIS team. Same team. virtanen is not a PK-ing, bottom six guy either. 
Right now, Baer is a superior player than Virtanen and that is not in question. 
As i said, once you talk ONLY PERFRORMANCE, Virtanen is not a top performer in this team . And Baer is just a few years older than Virtanen and both are in their 20s. So i don't see why we should prefer the guy who is slightly younger but a lesser player.

 

Right, cause we're only speaking about this exact moment in time. We're only going to protect players for this exact moment.

In this exact moment Virtanen is absolutely the better player than Baertschi, for example he can skate without seeing stars and vomiting etc...

In a month, I think it'll be very much in question. I actually think Virtanen is very rapidly becoming more valuable to this team than Baertschi based on ONLY PERFORMANCE (unless by ONLY PERFORMANCE you are silly enough to mean only the stat lines). 

In a year, based on current trajectories I think there is no question that Virtanen is more valuable to this team than Baertschi.

[canuckistani]

4 minutes ago, nzan said:

Right, cause we're only speaking about this exact moment in time. We're only going to protect players for this exact moment.

In this exact moment Virtanen is absolutely the better player than Baertschi, for example he can skate without seeing stars and vomiting etc...

In a month, I think it'll be very much in question. I actually think Virtanen is very rapidly becoming more valuable to this team than Baertschi based on ONLY PERFORMANCE (unless by ONLY PERFORMANCE you are silly enough to mean only the stat lines). 

In a year, based on current trajectories I think there is no question that Virtanen is more valuable to this team than Baertschi.

Dude, unless Virtanen can kill penalties or stick as a productive member of the top six, he is not going to be more valuable than a multi-year productive member of the top six, who's role is much more essential to our team. Its just that simple. 

The kid is developing nicely...stop overhyping him !

[canuckledraggin]

4 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

Looks like they are on vacation and have designated Stani to hold down their spot under the bridge.

You mean they haven't been "proven right"? This thread is the epitome of lets have patience with our prospects.

It was clear from day one that his maturity was what needed to catch up to his body. We drafted the best athlete in the draft. His forward AND backwards skating was the best in the draft combine. He demolished guys who had him lined up for a bodycheck and he continues to do so in the NHL. A 50/50 puck along the boards isn't even close to that because he comes away with the puck more often than not. His passing and 2-way play continues to improve.

 

He's not even a complete player yet and still he people are looking at him as the same player he was 3 years ago.

 

He's getting better and he's going to be a bargain next year as well.

[Putgolzin]

5 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

Dude, unless Virtanen can kill penalties or stick as a productive member of the top six, he is not going to be more valuable than a multi-year productive member of the top six, who's role is much more essential to our team. Its just that simple. 

The kid is developing nicely...stop overhyping him !

Dude, your version of a "multi-year productive member of the top six" has pretty underwhelming production.

It's far from overhyping Virtanen to push back at your statement/belief that "Baer is a superior player than Virtanen and that is not in question"

It is definitely in question.

[canuckistani]

2 minutes ago, nzan said:

Dude, your version of a "multi-year productive member of the top six" has pretty underwhelming production.

It's far from overhyping Virtanen to push back at your statement/belief that "Baer is a superior player than Virtanen and that is not in question"

It is definitely in question.

Sure. But it does not change the fact that Baer is a multi-year productive member of the very same top-six that Virtanen cannot get into on a consistent basis. By no objective standards is Baer an inferior player to Virtanen. He is playing for the same team and he is part of the top six and PP - productively. For multiple years. Virtanen is not, neither is he a bottom six grinder sand-paper guy or on the PK.  Ergo, inferior. They are both in their 20s, one is in mid 20s, the other in early 20s. 

[guntrix]

1 hour ago, canuckledraggin said:

Guuntriiiix, Guuuntriiix. How about the 5th line? where are you guys now that this kid is showing he's a top 9 guy?

Lol'd at top 9. This post answers itself. 

[guntrix]

23 hours ago, canuckistani said:

Don't confuse my reticience in crowning the local boi as a lock and a future stalwart as negativity. I am saying things EXACTLY as they are - Jake is developing well ( which i already said), but he is YET to cement a spot in the top six in one of the weakest teams in the league and he has ways to go to be considered a successful NHL-er, let alone a stalwart. Fake platitudes and fandom is not in my nature, sorry. 

 

I congratulate you on your objectivity. 

[canuckledraggin]

1 minute ago, guntrix said:

Lol'd at top 9. This post answers itself. 

A player who actually even plays in the NHL is a success. Are you claiming that the kid isn't a success?

[Warhippy]

9 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

Sure. But it does not change the fact that Baer is a multi-year productive member of the very same top-six that Virtanen cannot get into on a consistent basis. By no objective standards is Baer an inferior player to Virtanen. He is playing for the same team and he is part of the top six and PP - productively. For multiple years. Virtanen is not, neither is he a bottom six grinder sand-paper guy or on the PK.  Ergo, inferior. They are both in their 20s, one is in mid 20s, the other in early 20s. 

Actually.

 

By the numbers, at this stage of things Virtanen is the better player than Baertschi was at the same age for this team and if we project their next 4 years it appears if the current numbers continue that Virtanen will be the better player overall without the benefit of Horvat being his consistent line mate

 

Admittedly it is all subjective possibility but the numbers are indicating that Virtanen will be the better player while playing less minutes, less pp time and more defensive zone starts

 

Sven:  https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/baertsv01.html

 

Jake:  https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/v/virtaja01.html

 

Again, while Sven appears to be the better player at the moment based on his deployment.  It by no means shows or states that Virtanen at 26 years old and more ice time, better line mates and PP time won't be a better player

[canuckistani]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

Actually.

 

By the numbers, at this stage of things Virtanen is the better player than Baertschi was at the same age for this team and if we project their next 4 years it appears if the current numbers continue that Virtanen will be the better player overall without the benefit of Horvat being his consistent line mate

 

Admittedly it is all subjective possibility but the numbers are indicating that Virtanen will be the better player while playing less minutes, less pp time and more defensive zone starts

 

Sven:  https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/baertsv01.html

 

Jake:  https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/v/virtaja01.html

 

Again, while Sven appears to be the better player at the moment based on his deployment.  It by no means shows or states that Virtanen at 26 years old and more ice time, better line mates and PP time won't be a better player

I have said it multiple times that i am talking of what is, not what 'could be'. Right now Baer is a far more valuable member of the team than Virtanen. That much, should be pretty clear and practically indisputable.

I don't have much time or interest in hypotheticals. Virtanen could get traded, he could get hit by a truck, he could win the lotto and quit hockey. All of the could-be's are largely irrelevant time-wasting in my eyes. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by canuckistani

[Putgolzin]

9 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Actually.

 

By the numbers, at this stage of things Virtanen is the better player than Baertschi was at the same age for this team and if we project their next 4 years it appears if the current numbers continue that Virtanen will be the better player overall without the benefit of Horvat being his consistent line mate

 

Admittedly it is all subjective possibility but the numbers are indicating that Virtanen will be the better player while playing less minutes, less pp time and more defensive zone starts

 

Sven:  https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/baertsv01.html

 

Jake:  https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/v/virtaja01.html

 

Again, while Sven appears to be the better player at the moment based on his deployment.  It by no means shows or states that Virtanen at 26 years old and more ice time, better line mates and PP time won't be a better player

You're doing it wrong.

We've already established that the last few years is meaningful, but the next few years aren't. It's only right now that we're allowed to consider.

Right now Baertschi has had a moderate amount of success in the Top 6 over the course of years, so he is indisputably the better player. 

I'm not sure if we're allowed to consider Pettersson, because his success in the Top 6 is only confined to the past number of months.

 

Edit: I should give you a break - Baertschi's great. Probably just the insinuation that we should continue to give Virtanen less respect than Roussel, Beagle and maybe as much as Eriksson felt a little disrespectful in itself.

Edited December 11, 2018 by nzan

[canuckledraggin]

Living in the past gets you nowhere but behind. Try watching for things that they are.

[Warhippy]

1 minute ago, canuckistani said:

I have said it multiple times that i am talking of what is, not what 'could be'. Right now Baer is a far more valuable member of the team than Virtanen. That much, should be pretty clear and practically indisputable.

I don't have much time or interest in hypotheticals. Virtanen could get traded, he could get hit by a truck, he could win the lotto and quit hockey. All of the could-be's are largely irrelevant time-wasting in my eyes. 

Well, to be honest no he's not.  Because Baertschi hasn't played since October 24th and only registered 1 point in his 5 games leading up to that injury while Virtanen is playing right now and has 2 points in his last 5 games.  By your parameters Virtanen right now is the better player because he is currently playing.  While baertschi  may never play another game again and has never been healthy a full season in his NHL career

 

So right now, Virtanen as a healthy body is a far more valuable member of the team than Baertschi

[dpn1]

1 hour ago, The Lock said:

I wish I was young.

 

Also, I know what data mining is. I'm taking that course right now and can say that your basis on it is also flawed as properly sorted data can lead to good results. That's part of data mining. Sorting through big data. Except this data isn't even big.

Data mining is sorting through data to separate useful data from useless data.  the way you do that is experience, knowledge and some good old fashion wisdom.  I would say you need both you points to successfully data mine. 

[Rob_Zepp]

21 hours ago, canuckistani said:

I will believe it, when i see it. We are not the only team decimated by injury currently. So i am not fan of this injury bug argument. 

YES ! i said he is progressing decently. Tom Wilson is a nice & valuable member of the Stanley Cup winning team but he is NOT the bonafide top six player people are making Virtanen to be. 

 

No thanks. i am going to spell it exactly how 99% of the sites spells it. Try your spelling BS elsewhere. 

No. 

My point was to show Alfie that Virtanen by no means is a good pick at #6 or the best pick as he likes to claim. Next time read before posting nonsense.

Oh, when someone calls you on your rhetoric it is "nonsense"?    I see.   

[guntrix]

7 minutes ago, canuckledraggin said:

A player who actually even plays in the NHL is a success. Are you claiming that the kid isn't a success?

That's a dangerously -albeit expectedly- low bar you're setting for any draftee.