Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Rob_Zepp]

On 5/14/2019 at 12:15 PM, nzan said:

Honestly, he could probably hit 20.

Thats still a long way from good 1st line production, but if he could give the other two some space and ability to create while they bounce in shots off his a$$, I’ll take it!

Uh, so Blake Wheeler is not a first line player?   Voracek?  Kuznetsov?  Malkin?  Backstrom?    These were 20ish goal scorers last year and are but a few examples.

 

120ish forwards in the NHL last year scored 20 goals or more.   90ish forwards scored 22 or more.    20 goals in today's NHL is not a "long way from 1st line production".    

 

The bar set for this kid remains high as it should but he continues to develop and I still believe (as apparently his coach does) that you have not seen the player he will eventually become until he is about 24 or so.    His progression in terms of goal scoring, which is far from the only measure of an effective NHL forward, was that he hit 15 goals this past year which put him in 166th place in NHL amongst forwards.   Assuming that each team has top forwards, there are more than 180 top six forwards in the NHL....so his goal scoring is already in that category if just barely.   Further, his goals per minutes played is even further up that totem pole as his minutes per 60 was more in line with a third line player borderline to fourth line making his goal total even more firmly in the top 6 range.   

 

Conclusion - I don't see why people keep seeing this kid as anything other than a developing player with unique skills who continues to improve.   I also continue to see people with no hockey background at an elite level saying over and over "he has no hockey sense".    You are not in the NHL if you have no hockey sense.   Period.

 

 

[Alflives]

On 5/14/2019 at 1:15 PM, Jimmy McGill said:

I think there's a tendency today with coaches and fans to want to rush players. Jake is on a more typical curve and has been improving every year in all aspects of his game. 

 

I don't think Green is particularly patient when it comes to full line chemistry, no. He seems to like the idea of line pairings (which I'm basing off an interview of his, he mentioned liking pairs of players), two guys left to gel with the 3rd spot open for him to make changes on the fly. Thats not a great position to be in for a young player imo, it forces them to have instant chemistry while the other two get time to gel. At least thats how I see Green. And he's had some success with that model, but its not going to be ideal for everyones development. I'd much rather he just leave Jake-EP-Bo and Pearson-Bo-Loui together for a few weeks and let them develop two solid lines with a bit of time to learn off each other. Its not going to happen in 3 shifts. 

 

Willie was just an bad coach. 

Like mentioned here before.  Willie retarded the development of Jake's physical game.  I still can't believe (even though he did) Willie criticized Jake for being physically aggressive, and injuring guys with big body checks.  

Willie was a very bad coach.  

[Rob_Zepp]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Willie was a very bad coach.  

Alf, you hurt Willie....

 

[Tre Mac]

This guy will earn his paycheck in the playoffs, the Nucks just need to make them

[Putgolzin]

4 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Uh, so Blake Wheeler is not a first line player?   Voracek?  Kuznetsov?  Malkin?  Backstrom?    These were 20ish goal scorers last year and are but a few examples.

 

120ish forwards in the NHL last year scored 20 goals or more.   90ish forwards scored 22 or more.    20 goals in today's NHL is not a "long way from 1st line production".    

 

The bar set for this kid remains high as it should but he continues to develop and I still believe (as apparently his coach does) that you have not seen the player he will eventually become until he is about 24 or so.    His progression in terms of goal scoring, which is far from the only measure of an effective NHL forward, was that he hit 15 goals this past year which put him in 166th place in NHL amongst forwards.   Assuming that each team has top forwards, there are more than 180 top six forwards in the NHL....so his goal scoring is already in that category if just barely.   Further, his goals per minutes played is even further up that totem pole as his minutes per 60 was more in line with a third line player borderline to fourth line making his goal total even more firmly in the top 6 range.   

 

Conclusion - I don't see why people keep seeing this kid as anything other than a developing player with unique skills who continues to improve.   I also continue to see people with no hockey background at an elite level saying over and over "he has no hockey sense".    You are not in the NHL if you have no hockey sense.   Period.

 

 

I'd say 20 goals is a long way from "good" first line production if he were to only hit your earlier prediction of "20ish goals, 40ish points".

 

But that wasn't the point I was making. I was responding to a typical anti-Virtanen-ite by pre-empting his need to tell me that 20 goals sucks. Myself, I would be very happy with 20 goals 20 assists playing alongside Petey and Boeser. Ideally he would do that while being a being a "physical force" and a "playoff performer" and contributing in more than that one "measure of an effective NHL forward".

 

[Rob_Zepp]

1 minute ago, nzan said:

I'd say 20 goals is a long way from "good" first line production if he were to only hit your earlier prediction of "20ish goals, 40ish points".

 

But that wasn't the point I was making. I was responding to a typical anti-Virtanen-ite by pre-empting his need to tell me that 20 goals sucks. Myself, I would be very happy with 20 goals 20 assists playing alongside Petey and Boeser. Ideally he would do that while being a being a "physical force" and a "playoff performer" and contributing in more than that one "measure of an effective NHL forward".

 

On this we are aligned.   My point is many very good NHL first line players don't contribute much more than 20 goals and his 15 goals are in the top 9 category across the entirety of the NHL.   

[Putgolzin]

26 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

On this we are aligned.   My point is many very good NHL first line players don't contribute much more than 20 goals and his 15 goals are in the top 9 category across the entirety of the NHL.   

I like his 15 goals. I'll like 20 even more, if he could go even further and add 30-40 assists (I realize I may be reaching for the moon now) he would become more like a Renberg-to-Lindros/Leclair than a Semenko-to-Gretzky/Kurri

[higgyfan]

17 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

On this we are aligned.   My point is many very good NHL first line players don't contribute much more than 20 goals and his 15 goals are in the top 9 category across the entirety of the NHL.   

The  20goal players you mentioned earlier have at least 60pts (Voracek), while the others are pretty much a pt a game players.  They have strong playmaking abilities, which I have never seen in Jake.  He is a shooter, so I don't expect him to get much past the .5 pr game mark.  As he develops the other aspects of his game, he may find a permanent spot on the 2nd or 3rd line.  I don't see him as a good fit with Pete and Brock.

 

I'm not sold on the low IQ line either, but that was brought up during his draft and was rated a 3/5, which gave him the permanent reputation.  Jake seems immature for his age, which wasn't helped by rushing him into the NHL at a very young age (and being the home town golden boy made it even more difficult).  As he matures, his ability to focus on the details of the game will increase, as will his awareness of his potential to create a significant role on his team.

 

For me, Jake can be a frustrating player to follow, but it's way to early to give up on this young man.

 

 

 

[Rob_Zepp]

31 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

The  20goal players you mentioned earlier have at least 60pts (Voracek), while the others are pretty much a pt a game players.  They have strong playmaking abilities, which I have never seen in Jake.  He is a shooter, so I don't expect him to get much past the .5 pr game mark.  As he develops the other aspects of his game, he may find a permanent spot on the 2nd or 3rd line.  I don't see him as a good fit with Pete and Brock.

 

I'm not sold on the low IQ line either, but that was brought up during his draft and was rated a 3/5, which gave him the permanent reputation.  Jake seems immature for his age, which wasn't helped by rushing him into the NHL at a very young age (and being the home town golden boy made it even more difficult).  As he matures, his ability to focus on the details of the game will increase, as will his awareness of his potential to create a significant role on his team.

 

For me, Jake can be a frustrating player to follow, but it's way to early to give up on this young man.

 

 

 

The goal total was in response to a claim that 20ish goals was a long way off from first line production in the NHL.   My point was to show that such was not an accurate statement.  If you want to talk about assists and points that is another separate conversation.    

 

I think some of the bigger guys (guys who are men among boys growing up) take longer to hit their strides professionally.   There are simply so many examples of such players not peaking under mid twenties and then maintaining nicely for a longer while than those who come out of the gate at 20-22 age range.   I still believe Jake is in that later development group for some of the reasons you note above.   

[guntrix]

5 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

The goal total was in response to a claim that 20ish goals was a long way off from first line production in the NHL.   My point was to show that such was not an accurate statement.  If you want to talk about assists and points that is another separate conversation.    

 

I think some of the bigger guys (guys who are men among boys growing up) take longer to hit their strides professionally.   There are simply so many examples of such players not peaking under mid twenties and then maintaining nicely for a longer while than those who come out of the gate at 20-22 age range.   I still believe Jake is in that later development group for some of the reasons you note above.   

20ish goals is fine for guys like Wheeler, Voracek, Malkin and Backstrom because they put up 71, 46, 51 and 52 assists respectively... or 91, 66, 72 and 74 points respectively.That's top-six production.

 

20ish goals if it were to happen would not be top-six production for Virtanen if he's only putting up 10 assists. Assists and points is not "another separate conversation." You can't measure a fish by its ability to climb a tree. If you were to say that Virtanen's success shouldn't be measured by his production that'd be a fairer argument.

[Dazzle]

4 minutes ago, guntrix said:

20ish goals is fine for guys like Wheeler, Voracek, Malkin and Backstrom because they put up 71, 46, 51 and 52 assists respectively... or 91, 66, 72 and 74 points respectively.That's top-six production.

 

20ish goals if it were to happen would not be top-six production for Virtanen if he's only putting up 10 assists. Assists and points is not "another separate conversation." You can't measure a fish by its ability to climb a tree. If you were to say that Virtanen's success shouldn't be measured by his production that'd be a fairer argument.

You also can't use points as a definitive proof of his ceiling either.

 

How many points did Marchessault/William Nylander have before going to LV? Granted, it is an extreme example, but my point still stands.

 

Best thing for us to do is wait and see and not write off a young kid who's clearly working hard on his game.

[WeneedLumme]

Whenever I see posters calling Jake a bust, wanting him traded, or claiming that his goal production doesn't mean anything because he doesn't have many assists, I am reminded of a former Canuck player.

 

After about 200 NHL games, that player was not developing as fast as some would like and the Canucks traded him. He was a top-10 draft pick, 6'1, 218 pounds, and in his final year as a Canuck, while he had a good physical game, in 73 games he scored only 14 goals and 34 points. Sound anything like any current Canuck player?

 

Years later when injuries had taken a toll, one year that same player was about 50th in league scoring with 74 points, good production but not really star level. Except that he did it in only 49 games, which was star-level points per game. And he had 50 goals, which was by far the best goals per game in the league. 

 

If one only looked at total points, he was a good player. But goals are significantly  harder to get than assists, and his goal production made it clear that he was not just good, he was one of the elite players in the world. Goals do matter.

 

Trading that player away is one of the worst memories ever for long time Canucks fans, and as a Canucks fan, I do not want to see another move like that. While Jake is not likely to ever be at the level of CN, trading Jake away at this point would be almost as foolish as was trading CN.

[Rob_Zepp]

1 hour ago, guntrix said:

20ish goals is fine for guys like Wheeler, Voracek, Malkin and Backstrom because they put up 71, 46, 51 and 52 assists respectively... or 91, 66, 72 and 74 points respectively.That's top-six production.

 

20ish goals if it were to happen would not be top-six production for Virtanen if he's only putting up 10 assists. Assists and points is not "another separate conversation." You can't measure a fish by its ability to climb a tree. If you were to say that Virtanen's success shouldn't be measured by his production that'd be a fairer argument.

I HAVE said he shouldn't be measured by production.   Unrelated to Virtanen at all, another poster simply said 20 goals would not be first line production and I disagreed and gave but a few good examples of first liners who scored about 20 goals last season.   Someone beat you to the assist/point part but, again, that wasn't the point being made nor was it about Virtanen specifically.

 

If we want to get the thread back to Virtanen, if you get his style of play and get into a playoff team with a regular season of 20ish goals and similar pace of production in playoffs, he will be more than a huge contributor to the Canucks and well worth their selection.

[MrCanuck94]

Jake Virtanen D+5 - 70 GP 15 G 10 A 25 P

Josh Anderson D+5 - 78 GP 17 G 12 A 29 P

 

Hopefully Jake can keep taking steps and improving like Josh did.

[-DLC-]

Thing is, we are going to NEED big bodies and Jake is a big body.

 

He just has to continue to learn how to optimize what he's got ... the way he can one arm the puck in as he drives the net is encouraging.  I'd hate for him to figure it out somewhere else.  I'd rather we recognize that he can be something very useful and continue to exercise patience - if he channels his energy and focuses a bit more out there we'll likely see consistency. 

 

The whole shotgun thing put him in the spotlight and I'm not sure that was a great thing, as it had him "performing" a bit.

 

The things he needs to work on are totally teachable though - and it's worthwhile to do so.

 

He seemingly gets a little distracted/star struck at times.  Petey'll wear off on him a bit and I'm sure he'll buckle down as he sees the rewards are connected to the effort.

 

 

[hammertime]

On 5/23/2019 at 10:35 AM, Rob_Zepp said:

The goal total was in response to a claim that 20ish goals was a long way off from first line production in the NHL.   My point was to show that such was not an accurate statement.  If you want to talk about assists and points that is another separate conversation.    

 

I think some of the bigger guys (guys who are men among boys growing up) take longer to hit their strides professionally.   There are simply so many examples of such players not peaking under mid twenties and then maintaining nicely for a longer while than those who come out of the gate at 20-22 age range.   I still believe Jake is in that later development group for some of the reasons you note above.   

Its kinda in the same vein as in the onlt 20 goal scorers who are 1st line players are predominately playmakers. 

 

I agree though we just won't know with Jake until he's around 25 or so what kind of player he will be in his prime. JB said in his draft year even that that he believed Jake would peak late and we would have to be patient.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

 

On 5/23/2019 at 1:06 PM, Dazzle said:

How many points did Marchessault/William Nylander have before going to LV? Granted, it is an extreme example, but my point still stands.

Marchessault put up 30 goals and 51 points in Florida before he went to Las Vegas. And William Nylander plays in Toronto. 

 

 

 

[Putgolzin]

On 5/23/2019 at 5:29 PM, Rob_Zepp said:

I HAVE said he shouldn't be measured by production.   Unrelated to Virtanen at all, another poster simply said 20 goals would not be first line production and I disagreed and gave but a few good examples of first liners who scored about 20 goals last season.   Someone beat you to the assist/point part but, again, that wasn't the point being made nor was it about Virtanen specifically.

 

If we want to get the thread back to Virtanen, if you get his style of play and get into a playoff team with a regular season of 20ish goals and similar pace of production in playoffs, he will be more than a huge contributor to the Canucks and well worth their selection.

Now I’m being mis-represented.

My comment was absolutely specifically related to Virtanen and very easily understood within the context of everything you and most pro-Virtanen posters are expounding. I didn’t mention assists specifically in the post you keep referring to, but the discussion for pages has been “Virtanen bust!” vs ‘Virtanen is going to continue to develop and become a key contributor despite less-than-remarkable point totals’ (to which I strongly agree).

I’ll reiterate that I think that the Virtanen we can realistically hope to see develop could potentially play on the top line even if he were producing offensive numbers in the realm of what has been projected/crstal-balled by the posters who find themselves firmly placed with a pro-Virtanen mindset.

Those numbers by themselves are not close to good first line production, but with Jake those numbers wouldn’t be by themselves.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

 

On 5/23/2019 at 10:35 AM, Rob_Zepp said:

I think some of the bigger guys (guys who are men among boys growing up) take longer to hit their strides professionally.   There are simply so many examples of such players not peaking under mid twenties and then maintaining nicely for a longer while than those who come out of the gate at 20-22 age range. 

This myth has been debunked more than enough times.  PWF don’t take longer than any other player take. For every bertuzzi, doan there’s 10 other Benn, Simmonds, Tuch. Iginla, Kane, Brown, who have all put up 40+ points before they were virtanen’s age. Heck Brady tkachuk as put up 45 points as a 19 year old rookie this season. 

 

St. Louis, marchessault, gourde, and Atkinson, Zuccarello, Gionta all are small skilled players that didn’t put up big numbers until they 24+, guess that should mean that we shouldn’t give up on someone like goldy either as light skilled players clearly just tend to take longer to hit there stride..... I bet I could come up with similar lists for goalies/big and small defensemen/ or scoring wingers. 

 

My point again, “PWF do NOT on average develop any later than any other skill set”. 

 

 

[18W-40C-6W]

On 5/23/2019 at 1:00 PM, higgyfan said:

The  20goal players you mentioned earlier have at least 60pts (Voracek), while the others are pretty much a pt a game players.  They have strong playmaking abilities, which I have never seen in Jake.  He is a shooter, so I don't expect him to get much past the .5 pr game mark.  As he develops the other aspects of his game, he may find a permanent spot on the 2nd or 3rd line.  I don't see him as a good fit with Pete and Brock.

 

I'm not sold on the low IQ line either, but that was brought up during his draft and was rated a 3/5, which gave him the permanent reputation.  Jake seems immature for his age, which wasn't helped by rushing him into the NHL at a very young age (and being the home town golden boy made it even more difficult).  As he matures, his ability to focus on the details of the game will increase, as will his awareness of his potential to create a significant role on his team.

 

For me, Jake can be a frustrating player to follow, but it's way to early to give up on this young man.

 

 

 

Agree with all you've said, especially the maturity side. I think Jake's biggest issue was he came into the league too early and being the hometown 'golden boy' felt he had 'made it'. I think he has learned from his time being sent down, to how Green has 'managed' him, that its not only about being an 'every day player' as he's said alot, but with the addition of Petey and watching Bo, its actually about getting better, every day and you must try to do so for the team.

 

I mentioned this in another thread, but in the post season presser, when the players were asked if they had been given a call by team canada, Jake responded with a laugh and under his breath said in a self deprecating manner "ya right"....to me this said a great deal about him. He realized he didn't have a season that would make him look to be recognized, and that he needs to be better. This is a sign of his maturing process. Another sign, albeit maybe silly but its telling to me, he's stayed off social media. He's not posting all the time to instagram, he's being smart and now learning he's a pro. He's not looking for attention, this again, is a sign of maturing.

 

Bo, Petey, Stech, Boeser are all good examples for him, even Hutton, what they've shown is you can improve if you focus and grow up. Jake seems to be getting there, and I really think a bit part of his issue was not talent, it was mindset. And anyone watching Petey on that team now knows what it means to compete. When your best player is competes like him, night in night out, no one has an excuse, and there is a trickle down effect. Jake is going to come back even better next year, and take the next step. I expect 30-35 pts and improved physicality.

Edited May 26, 2019 by 18W-40C-6W