Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Boudrias]

It appears to me that JV's coaching in Junior left something to be desired. His size and speed allowed him to play a perimeter game that put up points. His adjustment to the NHL  was stunted by a desperate club that wanted a sop for their fan base. Set Jake back. Green gets him in Utica and rebuilds his game. Last year could have gone either way. JV produced 25 points and became a reliable d-zone player. Huge IMHO. Will he eventually be top 6, odds say no. I do think he can be a 3rd line player who can produce 40 points. Points are not everything, he has to continue improving his physical game. A 30 - 40 point winger with a physical game will be what we should all hope for. I like Jake's coachability.    

[Ghostsof1915]

I think it would be a great idea to have Todd Bertuzzi get hired as a consultant/skills coach, for Virtanen, Gads, and MacEwen. Having a guy who's been through the battles I think would be invaluable in teaching how to use their size and speed to their advantage. From his weekly segments on 650 the guy has a lot of experience he could pass on to other players. He seems to be really at peace with himself, and sounds like he'd be one heck of a mentor/coach. 

 

[Lancaster]

On 5/23/2019 at 2:26 PM, WeneedLumme said:

Whenever I see posters calling Jake a bust, wanting him traded, or claiming that his goal production doesn't mean anything because he doesn't have many assists, I am reminded of a former Canuck player.

 

After about 200 NHL games, that player was not developing as fast as some would like and the Canucks traded him. He was a top-10 draft pick, 6'1, 218 pounds, and in his final year as a Canuck, while he had a good physical game, in 73 games he scored only 14 goals and 34 points. Sound anything like any current Canuck player?

 

Years later when injuries had taken a toll, one year that same player was about 50th in league scoring with 74 points, good production but not really star level. Except that he did it in only 49 games, which was star-level points per game. And he had 50 goals, which was by far the best goals per game in the league. 

 

If one only looked at total points, he was a good player. But goals are significantly  harder to get than assists, and his goal production made it clear that he was not just good, he was one of the elite players in the world. Goals do matter.

 

Trading that player away is one of the worst memories ever for long time Canucks fans, and as a Canucks fan, I do not want to see another move like that. While Jake is not likely to ever be at the level of CN, trading Jake away at this point would be almost as foolish as was trading CN.

Most power forwards transition to the NHL very quickly.  Rarely do power forwards actually "slow develop".  Bertuzzi was an odd exception to the rule.

For Neely... he simply went to a better team.  The Bruins were a contending team at the time.... whereas the Canucks.... there's a reason they had high draft picks (that busted) during that era.  Had Cam Neely stayed with Vancouver, he wouldn't have came close to putting up 50 in 50.  

 

As for holding on to players because you're afraid to "make a mistake", that's akin to holding on to Nortel stocks when cracks started to emerge.  Instead of just cutting your losses to recoup what you can, you instead keep holding on until you use the physical certificates as toilet paper.  

 

[WeneedLumme]

1 hour ago, Lancaster said:

Most power forwards transition to the NHL very quickly.  Rarely do power forwards actually "slow develop".  Bertuzzi was an odd exception to the rule.

For Neely... he simply went to a better team.  The Bruins were a contending team at the time.... whereas the Canucks.... there's a reason they had high draft picks (that busted) during that era.  Had Cam Neely stayed with Vancouver, he wouldn't have came close to putting up 50 in 50.  

 

As for holding on to players because you're afraid to "make a mistake", that's akin to holding on to Nortel stocks when cracks started to emerge.  Instead of just cutting your losses to recoup what you can, you instead keep holding on until you use the physical certificates as toilet paper.  

 

When you use quotation marks, it is supposed to show that you are quoting someone or something. I certainly never said hang on to every player because I am "afraid to 'make a mistake'" as you quoted.

 

I pointed out that it is foolish to dump a player whose useful attributes are difficult to find and who is obviously still developing as Jake is. You can choose to consider Jake to be a "loss" that needs to be "cut", but the facts don't actually coincide with your opinion.

 

You seem to have a difficult time understanding the difference between your opinion and fact. Like saying that Neely "wouldn't have come close to putting up 50 in 50" had he stayed with Vancouver. Do you have any actual evidence that supports your statement?

 

And do you have any facts that support your claim that Jake is a "loss" that needs to be "cut" before his value drops to zero?

[Lancaster]

40 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

When you use quotation marks, it is supposed to show that you are quoting someone or something. I certainly never said hang on to every player because I am "afraid to 'make a mistake'" as you quoted.

 

I pointed out that it is foolish to dump a player whose useful attributes are difficult to find and who is obviously still developing as Jake is. You can choose to consider Jake to be a "loss" that needs to be "cut", but the facts don't actually coincide with your opinion.

 

You seem to have a difficult time understanding the difference between your opinion and fact. Like saying that Neely "wouldn't have come close to putting up 50 in 50" had he stayed with Vancouver. Do you have any actual evidence that supports your statement?

 

And do you have any facts that support your claim that Jake is a "loss" that needs to be "cut" before his value drops to zero?

You have any facts that Jake Virtanen won't just be a speedier and less truculent version of Steve Bernier?  

Bernier was D+5 years, he still was able to garner a 2nd rounder plus a 3rd rounder.  Would Virtanen still be able to get the same package in 2 years time?  

 

At least with someone like Bernier, effort and pushback was never an issue... just his lack of speed.  

 

Do I want Jake to succeed... of course.  But lets not just keep using outliers like Bertuzzi as supposedly models for development, when there are many many more players who were the same age (or maybe a year or two older) who started to dominate.  Lucic, Dustin Brown, Perry, Getzlaf, Booth, Clowe, etc.... they were all either producing at Jake's age or within a year or two of it.  

What are some of the issues JV still needs to work on?  Consistency and how to be a professional.... this is after 4 years already being in the NHL and AHL.  

 

Fear is never a good reason to make (or not make) any decision.  Afraid of pulling another Neely trade isn't a good way to manage assets either.  You make decisions based on probability and reasoning, not emotion or via the power of hindsight.  

[Sugar baby watermelon]

Went back about 3 pages to see if anyone had posted this or not and man is there a few heated debates going on about Shotgun here...  Wonder what Jakes summer time training routine is this year?

 

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, Sugar baby watermelon said:

Went back about 3 pages to see if anyone had posted this or not and man is there a few heated debates going on about Shotgun here...  Wonder what Jakes summer time training routine is this year?

 

When was this picture taken?

[Sugar baby watermelon]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

When was this picture taken?

not sure, I just saw it pop up on twitter the other day and I surf twitter all the time for canucks related issues...  (haven't seen it before what I meant to say)

Edited June 6, 2019 by Sugar baby watermelon

[73 Percent]

9 minutes ago, Sugar baby watermelon said:

not sure, I just saw it pop up on twitter the other day and I surf twitter all the time for canucks related issues...  (haven't seen it before what I meant to say)

Thanks for posting

[Alflives]

13 minutes ago, Sugar baby watermelon said:

not sure, I just saw it pop up on twitter the other day and I surf twitter all the time for canucks related issues...  (haven't seen it before what I meant to say)

Does Jake look a bit heavy again?  He's a big guy, so as he matures he will get heavier no matter how fit.  

[Sugar baby watermelon]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Does Jake look a bit heavy again?  He's a big guy, so as he matures he will get heavier no matter how fit.  

As long as he can still skate like the wind, throw big checks, and shoot a few inches lower than the cross bar, I will be ok with it...   next year hope to see 20 goal floor and 25 goal ceiling, if he can stay consistent

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Sugar baby watermelon said:

As long as he can still skate like the wind, throw big checks, and shoot a few inches lower than the cross bar, I will be ok with it...   next year hope to see 20 goal floor and 25 goal ceiling, if he can stay consistent

I agree.  I think Jake is going to physically mature into a truck. He's a very big boy, so he's going to be an even bigger man.

I do want his cardio to be such that he can play top six minutes 5 on 5, and still have the energy for some PK and PP.  that is hard for the heavier guys for sure. 

[Sugar baby watermelon]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I agree.  I think Jake is going to physically mature into a truck. He's a very big boy, so he's going to be an even bigger man.

I do want his cardio to be such that he can play top six minutes 5 on 5, and still have the energy for some PK and PP.  that is hard for the heavier guys for sure. 

I agree totally, don't want him to get this big this summer though, got to put in some hard work and keep flying around the ice out there

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Sugar baby watermelon said:

I agree totally, don't want him to get this big this summer though, got to put in some hard work and keep flying around the ice out there

Big Buff is my favorite player to watch.  I remember when he got this big, and he really struggled.  That's a sumo, not a hockey player!  

[Rob_Zepp]

On 6/5/2019 at 11:48 AM, Lancaster said:

Most power forwards transition to the NHL very quickly.  Rarely do power forwards actually "slow develop".  Bertuzzi was an odd exception to the rule.

For Neely... he simply went to a better team.

Wayne Simmonds, Blake Wheeler, Jamie Benn, Mark Stone, Tom Wilson, J.T. Miller and on and on.   Jake is younger than any of these guys "break out".    No, "most powers forwards" do not transition to the NHL very quickly.   Part of the reason may come from being men among boys at junior level.  Part of reason is they take longer to get pro speed.   

There are exceptions but far more big bodied guys DON'T take to the forward game quickly than do.   No matter how many times you say otherwise won't change the facts.

[Sugar baby watermelon]

3 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Wayne Simmonds, Blake Wheeler, Jamie Benn, Mark Stone, Tom Wilson, J.T. Miller and on and on.   Jake is younger than any of these guys "break out".    No, "most powers forwards" do not transition to the NHL very quickly.   Part of the reason may come from being men among boys at junior level.  Part of reason is they take longer to get pro speed.   

There are exceptions but far more big bodied guys DON'T take to the forward game quickly than do.   No matter how many times you say otherwise won't change the facts.

Just looking at Tom Wilsons transition since he entered the NHL, in his age 22 year he had 7g/12a over a full season.  He had already been in the league prior for 3 seasons w/similar results w/the exception of his 2nd year where he spent 2 games in the AHL and had an injury w/missed time.  Jake is 22yrs old and had 15g/10a in 70 games played.  Wilson started being more productive at age 23 two seasons ago with 14g/21a followed by 22g/18a this last season.  Wilson has been in the league for 6 years now and no one is really questioning him on the ice except his dirty hits lol.  I am hoping we hold onto Jake and he gets a 2 year show-me deal and see what kind of damage he can do in the next 2 years.

[mll]

DeBoer says power-forwards need more time to develop.  He was talking of Timo Meier who started figuring things out in the 2nd half of his draft+3.  Virtanen is entering his draft+6.  

 

DeBoer says it's because of the added dimension of having both skills and physicality, and that it takes some time to combine both at this level.

 

Laviolette made a similar comment about Forsberg.  Forsberg started as a finesse player (26 goals/63pts his first season in his draft+3) but became a force by adding the physicality.  It's not just that they can box their way to the net but they have the skills to make plays while under pressure.

 

 

 

 

[Lancaster]

3 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Wayne Simmonds, Blake Wheeler, Jamie Benn, Mark Stone, Tom Wilson, J.T. Miller and on and on.   Jake is younger than any of these guys "break out".    No, "most powers forwards" do not transition to the NHL very quickly.   Part of the reason may come from being men among boys at junior level.  Part of reason is they take longer to get pro speed.   

There are exceptions but far more big bodied guys DON'T take to the forward game quickly than do.   No matter how many times you say otherwise won't change the facts.

Those players didn't have issue with "learning to be a pro".  A lot of them play with lots of intensity.  Virtanen can play with intensity, but rarely does it.  JV has already been in the AHL for 1 year and the NHL for 3 full seasons now.  

 

Wayne Simmonds was already a force for LA in 09-10.  40 points and was very noticeable during the series against the Canucks.

Blake Wheeler at draft+4 put up 45 points.  Jamie Benn at 22 has already put up 41 points and was over PPG in the AHL playoffs and almost helped the Texas Stars to claim the Calder Cup.  Mark Stone may have taken 4 years to be a regular NHLer... but that season he posted 64 points in 80 games... and prior to that he put up 79 points in 91 AHL games.  JT Miller was already a PPG player in the AHL before graduating to the NHL with 43 points at draft+4.  Tom Wilson isn't as offensively gifted, but he has been a constant physical force... something JV hasn't been.  

 

So yeah.... power forwards do develop quickly.  Within 3-4 years.  No matter how often you stay otherwise won't change the facts.  

 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

42 minutes ago, Lancaster said:

Those players didn't have issue with "learning to be a pro".  A lot of them play with lots of intensity.  Virtanen can play with intensity, but rarely does it.  JV has already been in the AHL for 1 year and the NHL for 3 full seasons now.  

 

Wayne Simmonds was already a force for LA in 09-10.  40 points and was very noticeable during the series against the Canucks.

Blake Wheeler at draft+4 put up 45 points.  Jamie Benn at 22 has already put up 41 points and was over PPG in the AHL playoffs and almost helped the Texas Stars to claim the Calder Cup.  Mark Stone may have taken 4 years to be a regular NHLer... but that season he posted 64 points in 80 games... and prior to that he put up 79 points in 91 AHL games.  JT Miller was already a PPG player in the AHL before graduating to the NHL with 43 points at draft+4.  Tom Wilson isn't as offensively gifted, but he has been a constant physical force... something JV hasn't been.  

 

So yeah.... power forwards do develop quickly.  Within 3-4 years.  No matter how often you stay otherwise won't change the facts.  

 

Jamie benn put up 41 points as a 20 year old, at 21 he had 56 points in 69 games.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/bennja01.html

 

 

Evander Kane at 20 had 30 goals and 57 points in 74 games.

Jerome Iginla at 19 had 50 points

Brady Tkachuk at 19 had 45 points in 71 games

Milan Lucic at 20 had 42 points in 72 games,

Alex Tuch who's the same age as VIrtanen just finished putting up 52 points in 74 games.

Chris Kreider at 22 had 37 points in 66 games,

Boone Jenner at 22 had 49 points in 82 games

Dustin Brown at 22 had 46 points in 81 games

Todd Bertuzzi at 20 had 39 points in 76 games

Brandon Dubinsky at 21 had 40 points in 82 games

 

Rob knows he's full of BS on this. PWF do not take longer to develop than any other type of skillsets,  people pulling the odd late bloomer doesn't make it the norm it can be done with any position.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Dazzle]

3 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Jamie benn put up 41 points as a 20 year old, at 21 he had 56 points in 69 games.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/bennja01.html

 

 

Evander Kane at 20 had 30 goals and 57 points in 74 games.

Jerome Iginla at 19 had 50 points

Brady Tkachuk at 19 had 45 points in 71 games

Milan Lucic at 20 had 42 points in 72 games,

Alex Tuch who's the same age as VIrtanen just finished putting up 52 points in 74 games.

Chris Kreider at 22 had 37 points in 66 games,

Boone Jenner at 22 had 49 points in 82 games

Dustin Brown at 22 had 46 points in 81 games

Todd Bertuzzi at 20 had 39 points in 76 games

Brandon Dubinsky at 21 had 40 points in 82 games

 

Rob knows he's full of BS on this. PWF do not take longer to develop than any other type of skillsets,  people pulling the odd late bloomer doesn't make it the norm it can be done with any position.  

 

 

 

 

 

Part of their success is/was inevitably dependent on the team that they are playing on as well.

 

Some names that stick out were Iginla (when Calgary was competitive), Lucic (Boston) and Todd Bertuzzi (right place/right time, but even he didn't blossom right away). Brady Tkachuk is an exception to the list I provided, which arguably could be explained that he had more ice time. He ranked 5th on an OTT team, playing with Mark Stone (who's showing that he is an incredible talent). It's not to take away from Tkachuk's skill and work, but there are more factors at play that influence not only how PWF performs but all other positions too.