Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[King Heffy]

57 minutes ago, Timbermen said:

Wait a minute, when did Virtanen miss practise? Are you referring to the time he didn't show up to the media scrum after Mr.Universe publicly shamed him for not meeting his mysterious offseason goals. If Green can't tell us what those goals were, who cares.

Green does.  The offseason goals are a private issue between player and coach.  Not our business.

[Timbermen]

I'm over it, i calmed down. I have heat exhaustion, my neck is crispy. I was speculating a little too much about what's going on.

Green is actually a pretty good coach, i get a little defensive of players being called out in our rabid media after Tryamkin was chased out by WD. He would have been back for the next season if it wasn't for the corona virus too. 

I had my issues with AV about playing his favourites over better players but he was a really coach here obviously. It's too bad he seemed to lose the room but i think it was more of the organization being enamored with Torts. 

[JeremyCuddles]

10 hours ago, Provost said:

The player who lead the team in takeaways is definitely a great defensive forward.

Of course that is J.T. Miller since he led the team in takeaways by a long shot.  He also had a great differential in 14 more takeaways than giveaways.   As well as having a great Corsi For% (which means he wasn't just getting takeaways because his team never had the puck when he was on the ice and were always chasing).

Maybe spending 5 seconds actually looking up the stats before pressing submit on objectively false posts would be helpful?  That has to be embarassing to try to troll someone and end up having it clear that you are outright lying and inventing stuff in your head. 

You cherry picked a single subjective stat and even managed to get it wrong!  Hahahahahahaha

I mean coaches always have the best defensive forwards play zero short handed time and start them mostly in the offensive zone right?  The guy that is 18th on the team in defensive zone starts is the 2 way trusted defensive forward?  The guy tied for 21st best +/- on the team while getting protected offensive zone time is clearly an amazing defensive forward!

 

Funny you mention stats. Horvat's Corsi for is 1% higher than Jake's, and he was a -15 to Jake's -4. Since you felt the need to try and suggest Jake's +/- stat was relevant. Horvat also has 1 more takeway than giveaways. I am not suggesting Horvat is a bad defensive player based on these stats, like you are trying to do with Jake.

 

But lets look at Jake's regular linemates; Gaudette and Roussel and compare some of their numbers to his own. Both had worse Corsi for than Jake did. Gaudette was also a -7. Which is worse than Jake's. Roussel with an even +/- so that's a plus I guess. Gaudette had 23 takeaways and Roussel 7. Making Virtanen's 37 higher than both of them combined. He also had more hits than both of them combined. Both of his linemates also managed to have more offensive zone starts than he did. His on ice save percentage higher than both of his linemates as well. Just a few stats I picked out that I actually understood. Defensive point shares was very low for all 3, but Jake won that too. His linemates had 0.5 DPS and Jake had 0.8. Small numbers, largely irrelevant I suppose. Horvat had a 0.9 for reference.

 

Listen, I get you dislike the guy. Bordering on hate. It's fine, whatever fuels your soul. But come on. To suggest he is the worst defensive forward on the team is, I dunno how to word this without potentially getting in trouble with a mod. So I'll just say it doesn't sound particularly smart. Is he a shutdown player? No, I'd never suggest such and I don't think anyone should. But he is not the worst defensive forward on the team, he's not even the worst defensive forward on his line. 

 

Edit: Out of fairness to Roussel, I will say he played 28 fewer games than Jake. So his 7 takeaways sounds worse than it is. But even so over the same 70 games Jake played that's what,13-15 total takeaways? Lol. I don't think more games would have improved his other underlying stats much if at all. Roussel had almost twice as many giveaways as takeaways btw.

Edited July 24, 2020 by N7Nucks

[-AJ-]

22 minutes ago, N7Nucks said:

Funny you mention stats. Horvat's Corsi for is 1% higher than Jake's, and he was a -15 to Jake's -4. Since you felt the need to try and suggest Jake's +/- stat was relevant. Horvat also has 1 more takeway than giveaways. I am not suggesting Horvat is a bad defensive player based on these stats, like you are trying to do with Jake.

 

But lets look at Jake's regular linemates; Gaudette and Roussel and compare some of their numbers to his own. Both had worse Corsi for than Jake did. Gaudette was also a -7. Which is worse than Jake's. Roussel with an even +/- so that's a plus I guess. Gaudette had 23 takeaways and Roussel 7. Making Virtanen's 37 higher than both of them combined. He also had more hits than both of them combined. Both of his linemates also managed to have more offensive zone starts than he did. His on ice save percentage higher than both of his linemates as well. Just a few stats I picked out that I actually understood. Defensive point shares was very low for all 3, but Jake won that too. His linemates had 0.5 DPS and Jake had 0.8. Small numbers, largely irrelevant I suppose. Horvat had a 0.9 for reference.

 

Listen, I get you dislike the guy. Bordering on hate. It's fine, whatever fuels your soul. But come on. To suggest he is the worst defensive forward on the team is, I dunno how to word this without potentially getting in trouble with a mod. So I'll just say it doesn't sound particularly smart. Is he a shutdown player? No, I'd never suggest such and I don't think anyone should. But he is not the worst defensive forward on the team, he's not even the worst defensive forward on his line. 

 

Edit: Out of fairness to Roussel, I will say he played 28 fewer games than Jake. So his 7 takeaways sounds worse than it is. But even so over the same 70 games Jake played that's what,13-15 total takeaways? Lol. I don't think more games would have improved his other underlying stats much if at all. Roussel had almost twice as many giveaways as takeaways btw.

Good work on finding those statistics. I always appreciate some good research.

[JeremyCuddles]

2 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Good work on finding those statistics. I always appreciate some good research.

With Covid all I have is time baby. Lol. I could have done better though. Some numbers I omitted just to keep from an overload of numbers. I didn't outright state what their on ice save percentages were for instance. My post was getting to short story territory so I tried to keep it condensed. Also I am still learning about analytics so I am sure there are some underlying stats that make Jake sound like total garbage.

 

With all that said I am a bit old school. I like the eye test but that's easily thrown to the side with "but, that's like, your opinion man" responses. 

[WeneedLumme]

13 hours ago, lmm said:

You  have me nailed. I played organized sports til I was about 10,

So tell me, where does swearing at your team mate for the whole world to hear rate in your opinion?

Way higher than bullying and assaulting him would rate, as is obvious to anyone who is not completely brain dead.

[aGENT]

7 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

Funny you mention stats. Horvat's Corsi for is 1% higher than Jake's, and he was a -15 to Jake's -4. Since you felt the need to try and suggest Jake's +/- stat was relevant. Horvat also has 1 more takeway than giveaways. I am not suggesting Horvat is a bad defensive player based on these stats, like you are trying to do with Jake.

 

But lets look at Jake's regular linemates; Gaudette and Roussel and compare some of their numbers to his own. Both had worse Corsi for than Jake did. Gaudette was also a -7. Which is worse than Jake's. Roussel with an even +/- so that's a plus I guess. Gaudette had 23 takeaways and Roussel 7. Making Virtanen's 37 higher than both of them combined. He also had more hits than both of them combined. Both of his linemates also managed to have more offensive zone starts than he did. His on ice save percentage higher than both of his linemates as well. Just a few stats I picked out that I actually understood. Defensive point shares was very low for all 3, but Jake won that too. His linemates had 0.5 DPS and Jake had 0.8. Small numbers, largely irrelevant I suppose. Horvat had a 0.9 for reference.

 

Listen, I get you dislike the guy. Bordering on hate. It's fine, whatever fuels your soul. But come on. To suggest he is the worst defensive forward on the team is, I dunno how to word this without potentially getting in trouble with a mod. So I'll just say it doesn't sound particularly smart. Is he a shutdown player? No, I'd never suggest such and I don't think anyone should. But he is not the worst defensive forward on the team, he's not even the worst defensive forward on his line. 

 

Edit: Out of fairness to Roussel, I will say he played 28 fewer games than Jake. So his 7 takeaways sounds worse than it is. But even so over the same 70 games Jake played that's what,13-15 total takeaways? Lol. I don't think more games would have improved his other underlying stats much if at all. Roussel had almost twice as many giveaways as takeaways btw.

To be fair to Roussel, he was also coming off a major knee injury and was in no way playing like himself. You'd probably get a better picture of his actual ability looking at stats from the previous season.

 

He's probably one of the players who will most benefit from the extra time of from covid. I expect he'll show his value this play-in/off.

 

And no, Jake isn't a useless turnstile defensively, nor is he Bergeron. I still think he's getting traded sometime after this season/during next though. Mostly due to simply too many bodies and that we can replace him on the third for cheaper (MacEwan, eventually Podkolzin) while using him as an asset in a trade package for a D.

 

I also think we're moving Roussel for that matter!  He's part of the cost to keep Toffoli (a better player than either Jake or Roussel).

Edited July 24, 2020 by aGENT

[stawns]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

To be fair to Roussel, he was also coming off a major knee injury and was in no way playing like himself. You'd probably get a better picture of his actual ability looking at stats from the previous season.

 

He's probably one of the players who will most benefit from the extra time of from covid. I expect he'll show his value this play-in/off.

 

And no, Jake isn't a useless turnstile defensively, nor is he Bergeron. I still think he's getting traded sometime after this season/during next though. Mostly due to simply too many bodies and that we can replace him on the third for cheaper (MacEwan, eventually Podkolzin) while using him as an asset in a trade package for a D.

 

I also think we're moving Roussel for that matter!  He's part of the cost to keep Toffoli (a better player than either Jake or Roussel).

What would be the point of trading him if you think he's not an effective player even if his numbers indicate otherwise.  You don't think he's a good player, so he'd be unlikely to bring anything of value back no?  For cap reasons?  If he's not a great player, his cap hit won't be high, so what's the point?

[stawns]

8 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

Funny you mention stats. Horvat's Corsi for is 1% higher than Jake's, and he was a -15 to Jake's -4. Since you felt the need to try and suggest Jake's +/- stat was relevant. Horvat also has 1 more takeway than giveaways. I am not suggesting Horvat is a bad defensive player based on these stats, like you are trying to do with Jake.

 

But lets look at Jake's regular linemates; Gaudette and Roussel and compare some of their numbers to his own. Both had worse Corsi for than Jake did. Gaudette was also a -7. Which is worse than Jake's. Roussel with an even +/- so that's a plus I guess. Gaudette had 23 takeaways and Roussel 7. Making Virtanen's 37 higher than both of them combined. He also had more hits than both of them combined. Both of his linemates also managed to have more offensive zone starts than he did. His on ice save percentage higher than both of his linemates as well. Just a few stats I picked out that I actually understood. Defensive point shares was very low for all 3, but Jake won that too. His linemates had 0.5 DPS and Jake had 0.8. Small numbers, largely irrelevant I suppose. Horvat had a 0.9 for reference.

 

Listen, I get you dislike the guy. Bordering on hate. It's fine, whatever fuels your soul. But come on. To suggest he is the worst defensive forward on the team is, I dunno how to word this without potentially getting in trouble with a mod. So I'll just say it doesn't sound particularly smart. Is he a shutdown player? No, I'd never suggest such and I don't think anyone should. But he is not the worst defensive forward on the team, he's not even the worst defensive forward on his line. 

 

Edit: Out of fairness to Roussel, I will say he played 28 fewer games than Jake. So his 7 takeaways sounds worse than it is. But even so over the same 70 games Jake played that's what,13-15 total takeaways? Lol. I don't think more games would have improved his other underlying stats much if at all. Roussel had almost twice as many giveaways as takeaways btw.

The problem with those who don't see Virt as a valuable player is they can't seem to shake the shadow of the expectation of what they wanted him to be or think he should be, rather than seeing the value in the player that he actually is.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by stawns

[aGENT]

26 minutes ago, stawns said:

What would be the point of trading him if you think he's not an effective player even if his numbers indicate otherwise.  You don't think he's a good player, so he'd be unlikely to bring anything of value back no?  For cap reasons?  If he's not a great player, his cap hit won't be high, so what's the point?

Sorry, where did i say he's not effective? Where did I say I don't think he's a good player?

[Provost]

9 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

Funny you mention stats. Horvat's Corsi for is 1% higher than Jake's, and he was a -15 to Jake's -4. Since you felt the need to try and suggest Jake's +/- stat was relevant. Horvat also has 1 more takeway than giveaways. I am not suggesting Horvat is a bad defensive player based on these stats, like you are trying to do with Jake.

Corsi is highly related to how you are deployed and can’t be looked at on its own... that is why I gave a series of stats for a larger picture and not a single cherry picked one.
 

Horvat has 56.6% D some starts and a 49% corsi.  That indicates very good performance.   He is starting a high percentage of his shifts in the defensive zone and still almost even in Corsi.

 

Jake is used more in the offensive zone and has a lower Corsi.... which is a bad performance.  He is starting more often in the offensive zone but theboppor  to on is outshooting and out scoring him when he is on the ice.

 

I don’t have some particular hate on for Jake.  He is a bad defensive player and not our best two-way forward Like was suggested.  I am not inventing it, the coaches don’t use him in a defensive role at all.  Folks aren’t smarter than the coaching staff, I am just agreeing that they are right.

 

If you split up Jake’s season, his numbers are pretty atrocious aside from that stretch in the middle where he was excellent... that bumped up his season average significantly.  More than half the games he was a big liability, that is why he isn’t trusted by the coach and always plays himself down to the bottom of the lineup.

 

It is true that Gaudette has worse numbers, so I should revise my statement to “Jake is ONE OF the worst defensive forwards on the team” rather than the worst.  I give Gaudette a little pass for being new to the league as a regular player and still learning, rather than being a 5th year pro.  Gaudette has improved a lot as the season progressed.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Provost

[kloubek]

2 hours ago, stawns said:

The problem with those who don't see Virt as a valuable player is they can't seem to shake the shadow of the expectation of what they wanted him to be or think he should be, rather than seeing the value in the player that he actually is.

Many expected big things given his draft position, but I think lots of people are otherwise simply fed up. He has all the physical tools but despite special attention from the coaches still has a problem with consistency. He will make a real difference one game then completely disappear. It is infuriating.

 

Jake is the kind of guy who must play to his ability game after game. At his best, he is very effective and is the kind of player that can make a real difference in the playoffs. But as a team transitioning into a contender, we cannot afford to have players who take games off and aren't striving to improve. Especially considering our cap situation.

[JeremyCuddles]

2 hours ago, Provost said:

Corsi is highly related to how you are deployed and can’t be looked at on its own... that is why I gave a series of stats for a larger picture and not a single cherry picked one.
 

Horvat has 56.6% D some starts and a 49% corsi.  That indicates very good performance.   He is starting a high percentage of his shifts in the defensive zone and still almost even in Corsi.

 

Jake is used more in the offensive zone and has a lower Corsi.... which is a bad performance.  He is starting more often in the offensive zone but theboppor  to on is outshooting and out scoring him when he is on the ice.

 

I don’t have some particular hate on for Jake.  He is a bad defensive player and not our best two-way forward Like was suggested.  I am not inventing it, the coaches don’t use him in a defensive role at all.  Folks aren’t smarter than the coaching staff, I am just agreeing that they are right.

 

If you split up Jake’s season, his numbers are pretty atrocious aside from that stretch in the middle where he was excellent... that bumped up his season average significantly.  More than half the games he was a big liability, that is why he isn’t trusted by the coach and always plays himself down to the bottom of the lineup.

 

It is true that Gaudette has worse numbers, so I should revise my statement to “Jake is ONE OF the worst defensive forwards on the team” rather than the worst.  I give Gaudette a little pass for being new to the league as a regular player and still learning, rather than being a 5th year pro.  Gaudette has improved a lot as the season progressed.

 

 

You talk about Jake's zone starts like he is getting 60+ percent ozone starts. His has 53% ozone starts, that is not a "high percentage of his shifts". That's barely over half. Lol. That doesn't sound like a guy being protected because of his dzone deficiencies. And again, his corsi for is ever so slightly lower than Bo's. 49% is very good but 48% means defensive liability? Lol. That's with Jake playing with a defensive liability and an injured agitator. He doesn't have more dzone starts because we have Pearson, Horvat, Motte, Beagle, Eriksson and Sutter all manning those roles already. Not because Jake is trash at defense. We have guys designed specifically for dzone patrol already. His line is bad in the dzone as well. Corsi for is just as much a line stat as +/- is. Gaudette has a non existent forecheck and is doo doo on defense. Roussel may still be slowed by his injury cause he was barely visible in any games I watched. Even with all that, he managed to have comparable corsi for as some of our more beloved players. It was even better than Pearson's corsi for.

 

Split up his season numbers? In what way. I looked at his games played and he scored regularly. His ice time went up as the season went along. Even after the part where he was in the top 6 his TOI still stayed steady once we got healthy and he moved to the 3rd line. He just stopped playing with Bo. Yes, he had stinker games throughout the season. Every player does. Jake's bad games are just held against him more than other players. He plays in the bottom 6 but his ice time is the highest of all the bottom 6 players from what I seen. So does the coach distrust 5 other players more than Jake? Prior to playing with Gaudette Jake's ozone starts were in the 45% range. His deployment I'd say is more due to the fact he has a center that can't win draws and is piss poor at retrieving the puck.

 

I really have to preface this. I am not saying he is a shutdown player. Anyone that says he is, is just as lost as you. He is a good if not decent defender that can pot 15-20 goals. That's bordering on elite level 3rd line play. Just his presence alone disrupts the opposition.He may not get credit for that in the stat box but being on the ice with his speed and physicality forces the opposing team to play faster than they like. Who wants to get crushed? That presence alone helps his team's defense.

[JeremyCuddles]

4 hours ago, aGENT said:

To be fair to Roussel, he was also coming off a major knee injury and was in no way playing like himself. You'd probably get a better picture of his actual ability looking at stats from the previous season.

 

He's probably one of the players who will most benefit from the extra time of from covid. I expect he'll show his value this play-in/off.

 

And no, Jake isn't a useless turnstile defensively, nor is he Bergeron. I still think he's getting traded sometime after this season/during next though. Mostly due to simply too many bodies and that we can replace him on the third for cheaper (MacEwan, eventually Podkolzin) while using him as an asset in a trade package for a D.

 

I also think we're moving Roussel for that matter!  He's part of the cost to keep Toffoli (a better player than either Jake or Roussel).

Yes, I did sorta mention Roussel's fewer games played. But you're right I should really have looked at last season's numbers specifically since he played here. With those numbers he is definitely quite effective defensively. Arguably more so than Virtanen. Blocks a decent amount, decent takeaway numbers. Not so good giveaways. Overall I'd say when healthy he is more effective than I may have made him sound. I tried to include the fact he was injured. 

[WeneedLumme]

3 hours ago, Provost said:

Corsi is highly related to how you are deployed and can’t be looked at on its own... that is why I gave a series of stats for a larger picture and not a single cherry picked one.
 

Horvat has 56.6% D some starts and a 49% corsi.  That indicates very good performance.   He is starting a high percentage of his shifts in the defensive zone and still almost even in Corsi.

 

Jake is used more in the offensive zone and has a lower Corsi.... which is a bad performance.  He is starting more often in the offensive zone but theboppor  to on is outshooting and out scoring him when he is on the ice.

 

I don’t have some particular hate on for Jake.  He is a bad defensive player and not our best two-way forward Like was suggested.  I am not inventing it, the coaches don’t use him in a defensive role at all.  Folks aren’t smarter than the coaching staff, I am just agreeing that they are right.

 

If you split up Jake’s season, his numbers are pretty atrocious aside from that stretch in the middle where he was excellent... that bumped up his season average significantly.  More than half the games he was a big liability, that is why he isn’t trusted by the coach and always plays himself down to the bottom of the lineup.

 

It is true that Gaudette has worse numbers, so I should revise my statement to “Jake is ONE OF the worst defensive forwards on the team” rather than the worst.  I give Gaudette a little pass for being new to the league as a regular player and still learning, rather than being a 5th year pro.  Gaudette has improved a lot as the season progressed.

 

 

Jake is usually on the ice near the end of tight games. That's how he got 2 empty net goals last year. To me, playing 5 on 6 defending the lead late in a tight game is a defensive role. 

[Googlie]

One problem I see with Jake and training camps scrimmages is that one of his primary strengths is nullified - heavy hits resulting in takeaways.  He has 3 attributes that stand out ..... great wheels, big body that can punishingly hit, and a great shot. Speed lets him get in in the forecheck, make the hit and create the turnover. Discourage the hitting (who wants to see Hughes or Miller out for 3 weeks as a result of a dislocated shoulder on a Virtanen training camp hit?) and ofc Jake will be less effective, and won't catch the eye of the coaches. Except for maybe a lacksadaisical backcheck or two.

 

Give him a real game (or even a meaningless exhibition game against a team that you don't care if Jake "punishes" an opposing player),  and and a different Jake will come to play.

[stawns]

21 hours ago, kloubek said:

Many expected big things given his draft position, but I think lots of people are otherwise simply fed up. He has all the physical tools but despite special attention from the coaches still has a problem with consistency. He will make a real difference one game then completely disappear. It is infuriating.

 

Jake is the kind of guy who must play to his ability game after game. At his best, he is very effective and is the kind of player that can make a real difference in the playoffs. But as a team transitioning into a contender, we cannot afford to have players who take games off and aren't striving to improve. Especially considering our cap situation.

Yet Boes gets a free pass for the same thing.  

[Toews]

34 minutes ago, Googlie said:

One problem I see with Jake and training camps scrimmages is that one of his primary strengths is nullified - heavy hits resulting in takeaways.  He has 3 attributes that stand out ..... great wheels, big body that can punishingly hit, and a great shot. Speed lets him get in in the forecheck, make the hit and create the turnover. Discourage the hitting (who wants to see Hughes or Miller out for 3 weeks as a result of a dislocated shoulder on a Virtanen training camp hit?) and ofc Jake will be less effective, and won't catch the eye of the coaches. Except for maybe a lacksadaisical backcheck or two.

 

Give him a real game (or even a meaningless exhibition game against a team that you don't care if Jake "punishes" an opposing player),  and and a different Jake will come to play.

I don't see any indication that they are asking Jake to tone it down in practice. I think this is just an overreaction from the Horvat clip, probably had more to do with not taking undisciplined penalties, than not playing hard. Practice is supposed to simulate game conditions so the coaches would be doing a poor job if they asked Jake to take it easy. Jake cannot afford to do so either considering he is in a contract year and needs whatever edge that he can get. Also QH is too good of a skater for Jake to catch cleanly, so no concerns for me there. 

[Googlie]

9 minutes ago, Toews said:

I don't see any indication that they are asking Jake to tone it down in practice. I think this is just an overreaction from the Horvat clip, probably had more to do with not taking undisciplined penalties, than not playing hard. Practice is supposed to simulate game conditions so the coaches would be doing a poor job if they asked Jake to take it easy. Jake cannot afford to do so either considering he is in a contract year and needs whatever edge that he can get. Also QH is too good of a skater for Jake to catch cleanly, so no concerns for me there. 

Hmmm

 

I listened to all the scrimmages and didn't hear the word "hit" once.  I heard "bumped", and "backed off" and "collided with" but nothing that suggested a good old fashioned hit (not just Jake, but all the blue and white players)  eg in one of the earlier scrimmages, Ollie had the chance to really level Petey, but eased up and just knocked him down, and was called "a bump". That's all I was saying. - players don't, or are discouraged from, bone crunching hits in practices, and that somewhat emasculates Jake

 

 

[GoCanucks16]

I think there's a 50-point player in Virtanen if he's given the right role. I don't want us to give up on him.