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Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW


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9 hours ago, N7Nucks said:

Funny you mention stats. Horvat's Corsi for is 1% higher than Jake's, and he was a -15 to Jake's -4. Since you felt the need to try and suggest Jake's +/- stat was relevant. Horvat also has 1 more takeway than giveaways. I am not suggesting Horvat is a bad defensive player based on these stats, like you are trying to do with Jake.

Corsi is highly related to how you are deployed and can’t be looked at on its own... that is why I gave a series of stats for a larger picture and not a single cherry picked one.
 

Horvat has 56.6% D some starts and a 49% corsi.  That indicates very good performance.   He is starting a high percentage of his shifts in the defensive zone and still almost even in Corsi.

 

Jake is used more in the offensive zone and has a lower Corsi.... which is a bad performance.  He is starting more often in the offensive zone but theboppor  to on is outshooting and out scoring him when he is on the ice.

 

I don’t have some particular hate on for Jake.  He is a bad defensive player and not our best two-way forward Like was suggested.  I am not inventing it, the coaches don’t use him in a defensive role at all.  Folks aren’t smarter than the coaching staff, I am just agreeing that they are right.

 

If you split up Jake’s season, his numbers are pretty atrocious aside from that stretch in the middle where he was excellent... that bumped up his season average significantly.  More than half the games he was a big liability, that is why he isn’t trusted by the coach and always plays himself down to the bottom of the lineup.

 

It is true that Gaudette has worse numbers, so I should revise my statement to “Jake is ONE OF the worst defensive forwards on the team” rather than the worst.  I give Gaudette a little pass for being new to the league as a regular player and still learning, rather than being a 5th year pro.  Gaudette has improved a lot as the season progressed.

 

 

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2 hours ago, stawns said:

The problem with those who don't see Virt as a valuable player is they can't seem to shake the shadow of the expectation of what they wanted him to be or think he should be, rather than seeing the value in the player that he actually is.

Many expected big things given his draft position, but I think lots of people are otherwise simply fed up. He has all the physical tools but despite special attention from the coaches still has a problem with consistency. He will make a real difference one game then completely disappear. It is infuriating.

 

Jake is the kind of guy who must play to his ability game after game. At his best, he is very effective and is the kind of player that can make a real difference in the playoffs. But as a team transitioning into a contender, we cannot afford to have players who take games off and aren't striving to improve. Especially considering our cap situation.

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2 hours ago, Provost said:

Corsi is highly related to how you are deployed and can’t be looked at on its own... that is why I gave a series of stats for a larger picture and not a single cherry picked one.
 

Horvat has 56.6% D some starts and a 49% corsi.  That indicates very good performance.   He is starting a high percentage of his shifts in the defensive zone and still almost even in Corsi.

 

Jake is used more in the offensive zone and has a lower Corsi.... which is a bad performance.  He is starting more often in the offensive zone but theboppor  to on is outshooting and out scoring him when he is on the ice.

 

I don’t have some particular hate on for Jake.  He is a bad defensive player and not our best two-way forward Like was suggested.  I am not inventing it, the coaches don’t use him in a defensive role at all.  Folks aren’t smarter than the coaching staff, I am just agreeing that they are right.

 

If you split up Jake’s season, his numbers are pretty atrocious aside from that stretch in the middle where he was excellent... that bumped up his season average significantly.  More than half the games he was a big liability, that is why he isn’t trusted by the coach and always plays himself down to the bottom of the lineup.

 

It is true that Gaudette has worse numbers, so I should revise my statement to “Jake is ONE OF the worst defensive forwards on the team” rather than the worst.  I give Gaudette a little pass for being new to the league as a regular player and still learning, rather than being a 5th year pro.  Gaudette has improved a lot as the season progressed.

 

 

You talk about Jake's zone starts like he is getting 60+ percent ozone starts. His has 53% ozone starts, that is not a "high percentage of his shifts". That's barely over half. Lol. That doesn't sound like a guy being protected because of his dzone deficiencies. And again, his corsi for is ever so slightly lower than Bo's. 49% is very good but 48% means defensive liability? Lol. That's with Jake playing with a defensive liability and an injured agitator. He doesn't have more dzone starts because we have Pearson, Horvat, Motte, Beagle, Eriksson and Sutter all manning those roles already. Not because Jake is trash at defense. We have guys designed specifically for dzone patrol already. His line is bad in the dzone as well. Corsi for is just as much a line stat as +/- is. Gaudette has a non existent forecheck and is doo doo on defense. Roussel may still be slowed by his injury cause he was barely visible in any games I watched. Even with all that, he managed to have comparable corsi for as some of our more beloved players. It was even better than Pearson's corsi for.

 

Split up his season numbers? In what way. I looked at his games played and he scored regularly. His ice time went up as the season went along. Even after the part where he was in the top 6 his TOI still stayed steady once we got healthy and he moved to the 3rd line. He just stopped playing with Bo. Yes, he had stinker games throughout the season. Every player does. Jake's bad games are just held against him more than other players. He plays in the bottom 6 but his ice time is the highest of all the bottom 6 players from what I seen. So does the coach distrust 5 other players more than Jake? Prior to playing with Gaudette Jake's ozone starts were in the 45% range. His deployment I'd say is more due to the fact he has a center that can't win draws and is piss poor at retrieving the puck.

 

I really have to preface this. I am not saying he is a shutdown player. Anyone that says he is, is just as lost as you. He is a good if not decent defender that can pot 15-20 goals. That's bordering on elite level 3rd line play. Just his presence alone disrupts the opposition.He may not get credit for that in the stat box but being on the ice with his speed and physicality forces the opposing team to play faster than they like. Who wants to get crushed? That presence alone helps his team's defense.

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4 hours ago, aGENT said:

To be fair to Roussel, he was also coming off a major knee injury and was in no way playing like himself. You'd probably get a better picture of his actual ability looking at stats from the previous season.

 

He's probably one of the players who will most benefit from the extra time of from covid. I expect he'll show his value this play-in/off.

 

And no, Jake isn't a useless turnstile defensively, nor is he Bergeron. I still think he's getting traded sometime after this season/during next though. Mostly due to simply too many bodies and that we can replace him on the third for cheaper (MacEwan, eventually Podkolzin) while using him as an asset in a trade package for a D.

 

I also think we're moving Roussel for that matter! :lol: He's part of the cost to keep Toffoli (a better player than either Jake or Roussel).

Yes, I did sorta mention Roussel's fewer games played. But you're right I should really have looked at last season's numbers specifically since he played here. With those numbers he is definitely quite effective defensively. Arguably more so than Virtanen. Blocks a decent amount, decent takeaway numbers. Not so good giveaways. Overall I'd say when healthy he is more effective than I may have made him sound. I tried to include the fact he was injured. 

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3 hours ago, Provost said:

Corsi is highly related to how you are deployed and can’t be looked at on its own... that is why I gave a series of stats for a larger picture and not a single cherry picked one.
 

Horvat has 56.6% D some starts and a 49% corsi.  That indicates very good performance.   He is starting a high percentage of his shifts in the defensive zone and still almost even in Corsi.

 

Jake is used more in the offensive zone and has a lower Corsi.... which is a bad performance.  He is starting more often in the offensive zone but theboppor  to on is outshooting and out scoring him when he is on the ice.

 

I don’t have some particular hate on for Jake.  He is a bad defensive player and not our best two-way forward Like was suggested.  I am not inventing it, the coaches don’t use him in a defensive role at all.  Folks aren’t smarter than the coaching staff, I am just agreeing that they are right.

 

If you split up Jake’s season, his numbers are pretty atrocious aside from that stretch in the middle where he was excellent... that bumped up his season average significantly.  More than half the games he was a big liability, that is why he isn’t trusted by the coach and always plays himself down to the bottom of the lineup.

 

It is true that Gaudette has worse numbers, so I should revise my statement to “Jake is ONE OF the worst defensive forwards on the team” rather than the worst.  I give Gaudette a little pass for being new to the league as a regular player and still learning, rather than being a 5th year pro.  Gaudette has improved a lot as the season progressed.

 

 

Jake is usually on the ice near the end of tight games. That's how he got 2 empty net goals last year. To me, playing 5 on 6 defending the lead late in a tight game is a defensive role. 

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One problem I see with Jake and training camps scrimmages is that one of his primary strengths is nullified - heavy hits resulting in takeaways.  He has 3 attributes that stand out ..... great wheels, big body that can punishingly hit, and a great shot. Speed lets him get in in the forecheck, make the hit and create the turnover. Discourage the hitting (who wants to see Hughes or Miller out for 3 weeks as a result of a dislocated shoulder on a Virtanen training camp hit?) and ofc Jake will be less effective, and won't catch the eye of the coaches. Except for maybe a lacksadaisical backcheck or two.

 

Give him a real game (or even a meaningless exhibition game against a team that you don't care if Jake "punishes" an opposing player),  and and a different Jake will come to play.

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21 hours ago, kloubek said:

Many expected big things given his draft position, but I think lots of people are otherwise simply fed up. He has all the physical tools but despite special attention from the coaches still has a problem with consistency. He will make a real difference one game then completely disappear. It is infuriating.

 

Jake is the kind of guy who must play to his ability game after game. At his best, he is very effective and is the kind of player that can make a real difference in the playoffs. But as a team transitioning into a contender, we cannot afford to have players who take games off and aren't striving to improve. Especially considering our cap situation.

Yet Boes gets a free pass for the same thing.  

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34 minutes ago, Googlie said:

One problem I see with Jake and training camps scrimmages is that one of his primary strengths is nullified - heavy hits resulting in takeaways.  He has 3 attributes that stand out ..... great wheels, big body that can punishingly hit, and a great shot. Speed lets him get in in the forecheck, make the hit and create the turnover. Discourage the hitting (who wants to see Hughes or Miller out for 3 weeks as a result of a dislocated shoulder on a Virtanen training camp hit?) and ofc Jake will be less effective, and won't catch the eye of the coaches. Except for maybe a lacksadaisical backcheck or two.

 

Give him a real game (or even a meaningless exhibition game against a team that you don't care if Jake "punishes" an opposing player),  and and a different Jake will come to play.

I don't see any indication that they are asking Jake to tone it down in practice. I think this is just an overreaction from the Horvat clip, probably had more to do with not taking undisciplined penalties, than not playing hard. Practice is supposed to simulate game conditions so the coaches would be doing a poor job if they asked Jake to take it easy. Jake cannot afford to do so either considering he is in a contract year and needs whatever edge that he can get. Also QH is too good of a skater for Jake to catch cleanly, so no concerns for me there. 

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9 minutes ago, Toews said:

I don't see any indication that they are asking Jake to tone it down in practice. I think this is just an overreaction from the Horvat clip, probably had more to do with not taking undisciplined penalties, than not playing hard. Practice is supposed to simulate game conditions so the coaches would be doing a poor job if they asked Jake to take it easy. Jake cannot afford to do so either considering he is in a contract year and needs whatever edge that he can get. Also QH is too good of a skater for Jake to catch cleanly, so no concerns for me there. 

Hmmm

 

I listened to all the scrimmages and didn't hear the word "hit" once.  I heard "bumped", and "backed off" and "collided with" but nothing that suggested a good old fashioned hit (not just Jake, but all the blue and white players)  eg in one of the earlier scrimmages, Ollie had the chance to really level Petey, but eased up and just knocked him down, and was called "a bump". That's all I was saying. - players don't, or are discouraged from, bone crunching hits in practices, and that somewhat emasculates Jake

 

 

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1 hour ago, stawns said:

Yet Boes gets a free pass for the same thing.  

Lol... what? 

 

Firstly Bess was drafted 23rd overall. Not 6th. Their situations are not the same right off the bat.

 

Secondly, Boeser has battled through serious injury, as well as serious personal issues. Wrong and wrong again.

 

Next, Boeser has had his ups and downs but he has always listened and acted immediately to the coaches on what he needs to improve. It has been a perpetual struggle getting through to Jake. So, wrong again.

 

Finally, Boeser has made big strides in his two-way game. So even if he isn't scoring much out there, he isn't as much a detriment to the team when he is playing poorly as Jake is.

 

So no. It is *nothing* like giving Boeser a free pass.

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19 minutes ago, kloubek said:

Lol... what? 

 

Firstly Bess was drafted 23rd overall. Not 6th. Their situations are not the same right off the bat.

 

Secondly, Boeser has battled through serious injury, as well as serious personal issues. Wrong and wrong again.

 

Next, Boeser has had his ups and downs but he has always listened and acted immediately to the coaches on what he needs to improve. It has been a perpetual struggle getting through to Jake. So, wrong again.

 

Finally, Boeser has made big strides in his two-way game. So even if he isn't scoring much out there, he isn't as much a detriment to the team when he is playing poorly as Jake is.

 

So no. It is *nothing* like giving Boeser a free pass.

When Boeser isn't scoring he's completely invisible.

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On 7/22/2020 at 9:53 AM, Moose Nuckle said:

One more thing on Jake from me. 

 

Here's a guy who plays his best when he's playing physical, hitting, getting under skin. 

If he does that in training camp, Bo tells him off.

How is he expected to play his best in training camp if this is what happens?

 

Verdict: He isn't able to play his game in camp.

Wonder if the off-ice stuff, coupled with the fact that Zack and Micheal have been having resurgences, has been getting into his head.  
It certainly doesn't help when his bread and butter is labelled negatively by the captain of all people, when Ferland (for doing the same thing) is said to have had a positive camp.  Agreed, what's a guy to do when there's this inconsistency?  Guess he might just have to suck it up and play through the criticism and earn his spot back, since character is built after a long time but wrecked in a short time.

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15 minutes ago, Phil_314 said:

Wonder if the off-ice stuff, coupled with the fact that Zack and Micheal have been having resurgences, has been getting into his head.  
It certainly doesn't help when his bread and butter is labelled negatively by the captain of all people, when Ferland (for doing the same thing) is said to have had a positive camp.  Agreed, what's a guy to do when there's this inconsistency?  Guess he might just have to suck it up and play through the criticism and earn his spot back, since character is built after a long time but wrecked in a short time.

I never get where he gets tagged with "inconsistency".  He's had a steady improvement every year of his career........isn't that what you want from a young player?

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3 hours ago, stawns said:

When Boeser isn't scoring he's completely invisible.

Sometimes, that is correct.

 

And when Virtanen isn't scoring, he is visible for the mistakes he makes which lead to goals against.

 

Any more Bess bashing you wish to try out against reality?

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22 hours ago, stawns said:

When Boeser isn't scoring he's completely invisible.

Boeser was playing injured, a lot. He's 100% now and in the best shape of his life. Let's see what happens next.

 

My bad, this is a Jake thread. Virtanen should take his career more seriously, because there are players working real hard to take his spot, and more on the way. Yes, home town boy gets many chances and they've been patient, but he's no longer a boy. He had a good year last year, but he can do better. He could be a consistent 25 goal scorer. With the Canucks entering a sort of playoff series and then maybe playoffs, Jake might be an effective player, who agitates, hits, and uses his speed. Him, Roussel and Ferland could be a handful.

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18 hours ago, kloubek said:

Sometimes, that is correct.

 

And when Virtanen isn't scoring, he is visible for the mistakes he makes which lead to goals against.

 

Any more Bess bashing you wish to try out against reality?

or he's forechecking and creating turnovers, which is where his real strength as a player is.

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13 minutes ago, stawns said:

or he's forechecking and creating turnovers, which is where his real strength as a player is.

That I agree, but he doesn't do much of either when he takes games off.

 

I truly love what Jake can bring. Despite defensive gaffs I do still view his skillset as a strong one overall. He is infuriatingly close to being a real force. He just needs to learn how to commit himself to the game. I can't help but feel he will eventually grow up.

 

Unfortunately, I feel the revelation will come wearing a different jersey.

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