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Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW


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1 hour ago, Curmudgeon said:

I believe the burden of proof in a civil case has something to do with "balance of probabilities" which is less than in criminal cases where it is "innocent until proven guilty". Balance of probabilities means "based on all evidence, the alleged action probably took place." If Jake settles out of court, we'll never know if it actually happened, but no matter what there will always be those who are ready to cancel Jake and demand the Canucks get rid of him. Regardless of how Vancouver does it, they will almost certainly find a way to move Jake. If he were a 30 goal scorer and top line player, someone would find room for him. As it is, I doubt an NHL team would take on the headache.

If he can not be traded which is very likely; then he will be bought out. I just do not see him on this team next year. There are other players such as Podkolzin that will take his place.

 Saves on cap as well.

 

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3 hours ago, Alflives said:

civil case though requires a lot less proof.  Isn't 51% or something like that?  Not too sure, but thinking Canucks can't terminate on a civil matter.  would need to be a criminal case.  If the police find enough evidence for the crown to file criminal charges, then that would likely be grounds.  If the crown doesn't file charges, then Jake might need to be bought out.  

Even if it involves sexual assault? Surely there's a clause in his contract that covers that too.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, guntrix said:

Even if it involves sexual assault? Surely there's a clause in his contract that covers that too.

I don’t agree with sexual assault. But if it was serious he would be criminally charged. A civil matter would be someone looking for money or something for an incident. Not sure you can terminate based on that. Buy him out get it over with. 

Edited by #Canucks
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4 minutes ago, #Canucks said:

I don’t agree with sexual assault. But if it was serious he would be criminally charged. A civil matter would be someone looking for money or something for an incident. Not sure you can terminate based on that. Buy him out get it over with. 

Has nothing to do with being serious are not. Only 12% of sexual assaults reported to police see through to prosecution. That's a absurdly low percentage. From what I read about the victim she has missed work, suffers from anxiety and PTSD from the event and it has changed her life. Knowing that a criminal prosecution is unlikely she may just be seeking retribution to pay for the therapy I'm sure she is receiving and missed wages at work. It's likely it has nothing to to with severity at all.

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20 minutes ago, guntrix said:

Even if it involves sexual assault? Surely there's a clause in his contract that covers that too.

Needs to be evidence, right?  If there is clear evidence, then the crown will bring criminal charges.  Otherwise is it legally sexual assault?  I’m not sure how that works.  

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51 minutes ago, #Canucks said:

I don’t agree with sexual assault. But if it was serious he would be criminally charged. A civil matter would be someone looking for money or something for an incident. Not sure you can terminate based on that. Buy him out get it over with. 

I was thinking along the lines of shayster. Doubt there's much evidence at this point, to which she'd in all likelihood go for a settlement. But like Alf said, in the scenario where it successfully goes through civil, I'm not sure how it would work. Someone would need to have in-depth knowledge of Jake's contract and what would constitute a violation/breach.  

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@shayster007

 

Virtanens case notwithstanding, you realize why only “12%” of sexual assault charges are followed through with right?

 

I can say that joey joe junior shabbadoo from mill woods touched my wee wee one time i was on a slide in the playground. I can get a lawyer on retainer and make a charge....

 

Joey joe joe gave me pstd and now im allergic to red twirly slides. 

 

Obviously i am lying. Your twelve percent “should” also take into account the fact that the world is made up of 50 percent males as well. 

 

I have been assaulted by a female, and when i brought it to the authorities i got told to sort my $&!# and get over it. 

 

Fook this societal policy of “believing whenever a woman cries” crap. Its demeaning, and makes the real injustices go unpunished. 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, MystifyNCrucify said:

@shayster007

 

Virtanens case notwithstanding, you realize why only “12%” of sexual assault charges are followed through with right?

 

I can say that joey joe junior shabbadoo from mill woods touched my wee wee one time i was on a slide in the playground. I can get a lawyer on retainer and make a charge....

 

Joey joe joe gave me pstd and now im allergic to red twirly slides. 

 

Obviously i am lying. Your twelve percent “should” also take into account the fact that the world is made up of 50 percent males as well. 

 

I have been assaulted by a female, and when i brought it to the authorities i got told to sort my $&!# and get over it. 

 

Fook this societal policy of “believing whenever a woman cries” crap. Its demeaning, and makes the real injustices go unpunished. 

I'm sorry you had to experience that. That's not okay and no one should have to go through that.

 

I can't tell what the point you're trying to make is though. How I interpreted your post is that that number is so low because people lie or cry wolf? If that's the point you are trying to make then I completely disagree with you.

 

The number is so low because it's an extremely difficult thing to prove. Unless a victim immediately seeks medical intervention after an assult there is likely no tangible evidence to support someone's claims. If anything our society has only recently startes to take these claims seriously after generations of this behaviour going primarily unpunished. The countless number of woman who report something of this manor over time who have been completely dissmissed is likely astronomical. Not to even touch on the fact that so many parts of the world still find this behavior generally acceptable.

 

To touch on the male vs female point you for some reason brought into this. According to the department of Justice 70% of men didn't report a sexual assult, in comparison to the 59% of woman. From what I can tell those numbers evened out when reporting to police instead of just a general report. While a discretion does exist, it's not nearly as wide as you seem to be applying. Further more, the Department of Justice reports over 83% of sexual assaults never get reported at all. Of those small amounts that do, only 12% see prosecution. That is an insane number of people who never find justice. And that 12% is the number of actual prosecutions, regardless of gender. A criminal case is a criminal case regardless of who's involved.

 

Lastly, beilving what people say isn't demeaning, it's a basic human right that all people should have. 

 

And since you engaged in this conversation, here is the resources I used to draw my conclusions. Straight from the government

 

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2017001/article/54870-eng.htm

 

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/jr/jf-pf/2019/apr01.html

 

Edited by shayster007
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Is there a scenario that we can trade Jake (I know he has little value) and something else to Winnipeg for PLD? I know PLD is not living up to expectations. 

At least maybe he can work on face-offs and we'd have a serviceable 2nd line centre? If needed we can move Bo to third line duty. And 2nd unit power play to give the

team some more options?

 

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45 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Is there a scenario that we can trade Jake (I know he has little value) and something else to Winnipeg for PLD?

 

Sure, if the “something else” is Pettersson or Hughes. 

 

Winnipeg gave up a lot for Dubois. Don’t see them flipping the switch and trading him away for anything less than an overpayment.

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1 hour ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Is there a scenario that we can trade Jake (I know he has little value) and something else to Winnipeg for PLD? I know PLD is not living up to expectations. 

At least maybe he can work on face-offs and we'd have a serviceable 2nd line centre? If needed we can move Bo to third line duty. And 2nd unit power play to give the

team some more options?

 

Seriously, how long does it take to get a statement and conclude this investigation? If she says he was out of line then lay charges. I suspect someone wants to play politics with the situation. 

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1 minute ago, Boudrias said:

Seriously, how long does it take to get a statement and conclude this investigation? If she says he was out of line then lay charges. I suspect someone wants to play politics with the situation. 

if Jake says "I have no idea who this person is" it may take a long time. Are there still hotel records? phone data? you'd have to get someone searching for all of that, could take quite a while and you still don't know what actually happened. 

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3 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

if Jake says "I have no idea who this person is" it may take a long time. Are there still hotel records? phone data? you'd have to get someone searching for all of that, could take quite a while and you still don't know what actually happened. 

Terrible for the innocent party involved. 

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Regardless how it all plays out. I think Jake has played his last game as a Canuck and will be bought out of his contract if there are no suitors for his services.

 

From CapFriendly: cost of buyout $50k in 21-22 and 500K in 22-23 for a savings of 2 million on his current contract. Given all of the negativity this player has generated in the press and also to some degree, with the fan base, IMO, this is the most likely scenario going forward.

 

Maybe he can stage a revival of his career some place else; time will tell.

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1 hour ago, Boudrias said:

Seriously, how long does it take to get a statement and conclude this investigation? If she says he was out of line then lay charges. I suspect someone wants to play politics with the situation. 

I don’t know JAke from Adam, but he does (kind of?) give the impression meeting girls this way was something he did often.  So it might be hard to piece together evidence that is actually really accurate.  It’s a civil case now, so this might get resolved without any criminal action.  

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1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

if Jake says "I have no idea who this person is" it may take a long time. Are there still hotel records? phone data? you'd have to get someone searching for all of that, could take quite a while and you still don't know what actually happened. 

Why discuss ''if'' ? 

 

We have to should keep to facts.  And circumstances as information comes available.  All that we know is Jake is accused of misconduct.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Why discuss ''if'' ? 

 

We have to should keep to facts.  And circumstances as information comes available.  All that we know is Jake is accused of misconduct.  

just an example of why things could be taking so long, not saying thats what he's done. He legitimately may not remember much of the night. 

 

I don't see a problem with respectful discussion on these things, I think it can help to understand all the different points of view.

 

 

Edited by Jimmy McGill
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18 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

just an example of why things could be taking so long, not saying thats what he's done. He legitimately may not remember much of the night. 

 

I don't see a problem with respectful discussion on these things, I think it can help to understand all the different points of view.

 

 

The problem with 'we should keep to the facts' is, what are the facts? Does this Canuck Surfer know the actual facts? No. As mentioned, he said the fact is that Jake has been accused of sexual misconduct. True. But then, why is he telling you to stick to the facts when all you're doing is presenting an idea that could possibly be true, or not? He may not remember anything from that night. And I'm not saying that justifies anything at all. If he is found guilty, then he should pay the full consequences. All I'm saying is, if he's telling you to stick to the facts, when he clearly has no idea what the real facts are, then he shouldn't be responding to you in a condescending manner. Nobody knows what happened. 

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9 minutes ago, BarnBurner said:

The problem with 'we should keep to the facts' is, what are the facts? Does this Canuck Surfer know the actual facts? No. As mentioned, he said the fact is that Jake has been accused of sexual misconduct. True. But then, why is he telling you to stick to the facts when all you're doing is presenting an idea that could possibly be true, or not? He may not remember anything from that night. And I'm not saying that justifies anything at all. If he is found guilty, then he should pay the full consequences. All I'm saying is, if he's telling you to stick to the facts, when he clearly has no idea what the real facts are, then he shouldn't be responding to you in a condescending manner. Nobody knows what happened. 

One of the reasons I think its necessary to explore what might be going on is I still see a lot of victim blaming type of thinking. So if its fair game to question her motivations we certainly can discuss what might be happening on Jakes side of this. Or if we don't want to use Jakes name, what a hypothetical person might do. 

 

As long as we stay respectful and don't accuse people of things, I think its a good exercise because when you start getting into it you can see how complicated these things can be. 

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If it turns out without any criminal charges, this can be a good thing for Jakes career.

It's kind of a wake up call for him.

So he shift the focus from party and girls to hockey. 

So for know I say we keep him and the club give him an ultimatum. 

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