Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[2SKATES1STICK]

And Schroeder is far from a liability. He has 7 points, and is +9 in 10 games on Minnesota's third line. Unfortunately for him he lost a spot on the roster because of the deadline, but it was not due to lack of production or skill. They would have had to break up other lines, and he was the "easiest" player to scratch because of it.

7 pts in 18 games.

he was filling in on the 2nd line a lot

when a team wins 5 for every 1 loss, plus-minus goes up.

context

[JiffyPB]

Jake has excellent physical tools, but mark my words, if he makes the team out of camp it would be the same mistake the Isles made with Niederreiter and the Yotes made with Doan when they rushed both players into the league. People need to learn that "physically ready for the NHL" =/= "ready for the NHL." I still think Jake needs to learn to play away from the puck and continue to learn to play more of an east-west game as well.

Also, his draft+1 year compared to any other forward prospect in the 1st round of last year's draft isn't really all that special compared to anyone else's except Nick Ritchie, Conner Bleackley, Josh Ho-Sang and Quenneville. Reinhart, Draisaitl, Bennett, Dal Colle, Nylander, Ehlers, Fiala, Perlini, Vrana, Larkin, Milano, Tuch, Schmaltz, Fabbri, Kapanen, McCann, Pastrnak, Scherbak, Goldobin, Kempe have all either shown more improvement or more dominance in the league they currently play in. I doubt all of them make their NHL clubs next year.

Jake's still gonna be a good player and definitely has the skill and tools to become one, but I wouldn't sit here and go "derpity derp 6th overall pick....herp derp will make team in camp" because he hasn't even shown the same level dominance + improvement Horvat did last season and many did not even peg Horvat to get beyond 9 games in the NHL. The canucks would be smart to develop him meticulously rather than rush him and fumble the highest pick they had since the Sedins just to satisfy some raging boner this fanbase has for youth. 1 more year in juniors to round out his game and show more dominance will not kill him.

Edited March 15, 2015 by ghjffbali

[jdatb]

I personally believe Jake Virtanen will play hockey sometimes and will also not play hockey sometimes. I believe he is most likely to not play hockey during the summer months, but I'm not sure.

Are you saying that you can read the future? You know there are professional scouts who actually know more about players than you, buddy. Typical see-dee-see.

[snizzle_]

Have you seen some of the goals this guy scores?

Do you really think he's just a guy that can skate and hit?

He has a great shot and can make moves at top speed. If anything, he just needs to play with other fast players that play a north south game like him.

Right because he's going to be able to score these amazing goals in the pros. I think we can all agree on the fact that just because you score highlight reel goals in junior that it might not translate to the NHL. Drouin the Q on fire, went through the entire team twice before scoring, but he can't do that in the NHL.

What we want from jake is consistency. We don't expect him to be scoring end to end goals every game and adding 2 assists. We want consistent production, all while improving all parts of his game that will allow him to play in the NHL.

Being held off the scoresheet 40% of your games in not good. Inconsistency is one of the major career killers. Look at WD philosophy: "I want to put a guy out there and know what to expect and know exactly what he's going to bring". Guys like Kassian and Jensen have struggled with consistency and you've seen how bumpy their journey has been.

In the end, we're all cheering for Virtanen and everyone's negativity goes away when points are scored. That's the bottom line. If points aren't being produced people start questioning and others start defending that's just the nature of this community.

We need to step back and look at it as a whole and make sense of all the information. Because just saying he had surgery on his shoulder does not give the man a write off. You also can't say that you'll be satisfied if he turns out to be a 3rd liner. We all know that he could fit that mold, but only if that's where he ends up! You don't cheer for him to become that.

[Boudrias]

Not a big fan of any player going to the NHL out of Junior. Horvat did it but his defensive game and FO % did it for him. FO% in particular on a team with a brutal shortfall. As suggested above the CHL is not the NHL. Setting a player back by bringing him in to quickly has been done repeatedly. JV can finish his WHL career and spend a year in Utica then make the Canucks with some experience.

[BanTSN]

Jake has excellent physical tools, but mark my words, if he makes the team out of camp it would be the same mistake the Isles made with Niederreiter and the Yotes made with Doan when they rushed both players into the league. People need to learn that "physically ready for the NHL" =/= "ready for the NHL." I still think Jake needs to learn to play away from the puck and continue to learn to play more of an east-west game as well.

Also, his draft+1 year compared to any other forward prospect in the 1st round of last year's draft isn't really all that special compared to anyone else's except Nick Ritchie, Conner Bleackley, Josh Ho-Sang and Quenneville. Reinhart, Draisaitl, Bennett, Dal Colle, Nylander, Ehlers, Fiala, Perlini, Vrana, Larkin, Milano, Tuch, Schmaltz, Fabbri, Kapanen, McCann, Pastrnak, Scherbak, Goldobin, Kempe have all either shown more improvement or more dominance in the league they currently play in. I doubt all of them make their NHL clubs next year.

Jake's still gonna be a good player and definitely has the skill and tools to become one, but I wouldn't sit here and go "derpity derp 6th overall pick....herp derp will make team in camp" because he hasn't even shown the same level dominance + improvement Horvat did last season and many did not even peg Horvat to get beyond 9 games in the NHL. The canucks would be smart to develop him meticulously rather than rush him and fumble the highest pick they had since the Sedins just to satisfy some raging boner this fanbase has for youth. 1 more year in juniors to round out his game and show more dominance will not kill him.

Would you rather hold off on Virtanen so instead of being surrounded by a lot of help like the Sedins, Vrbata, etc. he instead had to account for a lot of offensive responsibility like Doan and Neider had to put up right out the gate? I don't think you're giving the Canucks enough credit. Did they rush Horvat? No. He's still technically on the 4th line and they're letting him develop as a pro in the NHL against all sorts of NHL competition. That is how you learn to be an effective NHL player. Is Virtanen going to learn that in junior? No. When he's ready, he's ready, and that's up to the team.

All those other players you mention are totally irrelevant, but your assessment on them is off, because statwatching, and totally ignoring their status on actual NHL readiness. (size, speed and strength) Searching through past stats, you'll find that dominating a junior league offensively can at times mean totally nothing. Remember Coho? lul. Future captain, all star, sniper, high hockey iq, etc. who had a big problem developing an NHL skating stride and is still utterly clueless without the puck. Remember Dane Fox? lul. Future Canucks sniper. Can't skate worth a damn though. People here underrate the physical tools that are needed to become a truly great player in the NHL. Virtanen, with his elite shot, elite skating ability and elite physicality has those tools already. Now it's only a matter of rounding out his game, which he has been doing all season.

As for Horvat, a lot of people here had concerns about him too, because of his skating, mainly. He was supposed to stay in junior for another year, play in the WJC's, etc. Instead the team thought it was best that he started developing as an NHLer against NHL competion because he was considered ready.

Now, Jake is a bit of a young prospect still, so MAYBE the team will feel that some more time against some crap competition will do him some good, but I highly doubt it. I don't think the team feels that he'll learn anything useful in junior, and this urge to see him stay down there just comes from people who want to continue rag on his statistical output while ignoring the fact that his points-per-minute output is elite against his current competition, despite having so-so power play time and linemates.

Honestly the only thing I see slowing Jake down is that he'll be dragging hundreds of puckbunnies around with him. lul

[Boudrias]

BanTSN;

Your read might be absolutely right. JV might physically be able to handle NHL play. When I talk about him finishing another year of Junior and then time in the AHL it is mostly to do with his mental approach to the game. Many pros talk about how AHL time made their NHL careers. Confidence can be a fragile. Because JV can knock a 200 pound dman into the bench does not make him less susceptible to losing confidence. That said management appears to have good reads on their talent. If JV looks good in camp then I suspect he will get a look. It would be great to see him in a Canuck uniform.

[Blueberries]

"Overrated" doesn't mean that he's all offense - he may not be the best shutdown in junior but he's still pretty damn good

And so what if Virtanen plays less than 17 minutes a game? Do realize that higher TOI doesn't guarantee higher PPG

Virtanen has in of the best points per 60 in the WHL, look at Bjorkstrand he plays 23+ minutes, Virtanen would have similar numbers.

he's a relentless, brutal playr to play against. watch him pplay he is far from weak

Brutal? Really?Bennett is 6 181 according to hockeydb. The guy can't do a pull up so unless somehow he is incredibibly strong lower body wise he isn't a brutal player nothing close. Bo is 6 206 and he still gets knocked around and he's built like a bull. Bennett has great offensive skills but isn't much more yet..

[Jiggs50]

You guys can argue you all want, it doesn't matter lol. Benning seems intent on giving Jake at least 10 games in the nhl. If he shows promise he'll stay.

Just look at what some of you were saying about BO

Edited March 15, 2015 by Jiggs50

[Guest Dasein]

Virtanen has in of the best points per 60 in the WHL, look at Bjorkstrand he plays 23+ minutes, Virtanen would have similar numbers.

Virtanen would not have the same points per 60 if he played more minutes - it would be lower

[WonderTwinPowers]

Virtanen would not have the same points per 60 if he played more minutes - it would be lower

Can either statement really be an absolute? Seems like we should take solace in the fact he has a high p/60min. I'm just interested to watch Virtanen after a full summers training, wherever he plays. Because I believe he'll be good for the Canucks in the future. I trust JB to make the right decision on wherever he is next year.

[JiffyPB]

Would you rather hold off on Virtanen so instead of being surrounded by a lot of help like the Sedins, Vrbata, etc. he instead had to account for a lot of offensive responsibility like Doan and Neider had to put up right out the gate? I don't think you're giving the Canucks enough credit. Did they rush Horvat? No. He's still technically on the 4th line and they're letting him develop as a pro in the NHL against all sorts of NHL competition. That is how you learn to be an effective NHL player. Is Virtanen going to learn that in junior? No. When he's ready, he's ready, and that's up to the team.

All those other players you mention are totally irrelevant, but your assessment on them is off, because statwatching, and totally ignoring their status on actual NHL readiness. (size, speed and strength) Searching through past stats, you'll find that dominating a junior league offensively can at times mean totally nothing. Remember Coho? lul. Future captain, all star, sniper, high hockey iq, etc. who had a big problem developing an NHL skating stride and is still utterly clueless without the puck. Remember Dane Fox? lul. Future Canucks sniper. Can't skate worth a damn though. People here underrate the physical tools that are needed to become a truly great player in the NHL. Virtanen, with his elite shot, elite skating ability and elite physicality has those tools already. Now it's only a matter of rounding out his game, which he has been doing all season.

As for Horvat, a lot of people here had concerns about him too, because of his skating, mainly. He was supposed to stay in junior for another year, play in the WJC's, etc. Instead the team thought it was best that he started developing as an NHLer against NHL competion because he was considered ready.

Now, Jake is a bit of a young prospect still, so MAYBE the team will feel that some more time against some crap competition will do him some good, but I highly doubt it. I don't think the team feels that he'll learn anything useful in junior, and this urge to see him stay down there just comes from people who want to continue rag on his statistical output while ignoring the fact that his points-per-minute output is elite against his current competition, despite having so-so power play time and linemates.

Honestly the only thing I see slowing Jake down is that he'll be dragging hundreds of puckbunnies around with him. lul

You must be one of those puck bunnies based on how much you obsess over him lul.

I agree that production is not a direct measure of talent, but it can be used as a measure of success in juniors and improvement. Jake has not exhibited much of this. While it is still the team's call, I don't see them dumping 4 forwards this offseason. They already have to make room for Vey and Baertschi, but now they also gotta move players to make room for Kenins and Virtanen. I just don't think that's feasible and it will be the #1 reason Virtanen does not make it even if he dazzles in camp.

To make an analogy for statistics in juniors it would be like 2 applicants battling over a single spot in med school. Student A has a 3.8 GPA and solid MCAT scores and student B has a 3.5 and weaker MCAT scores. Student A may not even become as good of a doctor or be as outright intelligent (since we are basing this on GPA) as student B if both were accepted in theory, but a seat in med school represents a significant investment on part of the school and society therefore you go with the student that has experienced more success because they are traditionally more likely to succeed once accepted. If med schools accepted a large range of GPA's and MCAT scores, more people in the lower range of GPA's and MCAT scores would fail once being accepted and this would be a waste of spots being allocated.

What traditionally would happen with student B is that he/she would be rejected and told to apply again next year. Med schools love it when rejected students come back and show significant improvement. If Student B shows tremendous improvement (i.e. 3.8-4.0 GPA for the next year and having their average GPA increase to 3.7-ish along with improved MCAT scores), then they will generally get in because they have demonstrated commitment towards being better/becoming a doctor even though they were rejected initially, improvement in success in school (GPA + MCAT improvement), and finally dominating in terms of academics (3.8-4.0 GPA in final year). This in turn would lead the admissions officer to believe that student B is now a good bet to become a doctor and they will get a seat.

That's how it works there, and that is how it should work for Jake. The Canucks need to see him improve and flourish more before giving him a spot.

Edited March 15, 2015 by ghjffbali

[uselessstats]

You must be one of those puck bunnies based on how much you obsess over him lul.

I agree that production is not a direct measure of talent, but it can be used as a measure of success in juniors and improvement. Jake has not exhibited much of this. While it is still the team's call, I don't see them dumping 4 forwards this offseason. They already have to make room for Vey and Baertschi, but now they also gotta move players to make room for Kenins and Virtanen. I just don't think that's feasible and it will be the #1 reason Virtanen does not make it even if he dazzles in camp.

To make an analogy for statistics in juniors it would be like 2 applicants battling over a single spot in med school. Student A has a 3.8 GPA and solid MCAT scores and student B has a 3.5 and weaker MCAT scores. Student A may not even become as good of a doctor or be as outright intelligent (since we are basing this on GPA) as student B if both were accepted in theory, but a seat in med school represents a significant investment on part of the school and society therefore you go with the student that has experience more success because they are traditionally more likely to succeed once accepted. If med schools accepted a large range of GPA's and MCAT scores, more people in the lower range of GPA's and MCAT scores would fail once being accepted and this would be a waste of spots being allocated.

What traditionally would happen with student B is that he/she would be rejected and told to apply again next year. Med schools love it when rejected students come back and show significant improvement. If Student B shows tremendous improvement (i.e. 3.8-4.0 GPA for the next year and having their average GPA increase to 3.7-ish along with improved MCAT scores), then they will generally get in because they have demonstrated commitment towards being better/becoming a doctor even though they were rejected initially, improvement in success in school (GPA + MCAT improvement), and finally dominating in terms of academics (3.8-4.0 GPA in final year). This in turn would lead the admissions officer to believe that student B is now a good bet to become a doctor and they will get a seat.

That's how it works there, and that is how it should work for Jake. The Canucks need to see him improve and flourish more before giving him a spot.

Flawed analogy. There's no equivalent to training camp in med school, which is where NHL teams base a lot of their decisions for the upcoming season. Remember Grabner? Strong seasons in the AHL but weak training camps each year doomed him to trade/waivers.

Plus wow, could you have picked a longer, more convoluted way to explain something on a hockey board? Unless we all went to med school that's about as helpful as explaining Jake's odds by comparing it to the uncertainty principal in quantum mechanics...

Edited March 15, 2015 by uselessstats

[Erik Karlsson]

His goal scoring has been off since his surgery. Look at Mantha, he's supposed to be a top prospect and is putting up underwhelming numbers in the AHL after his injury.

He's also not getting prime minutes like every other top prospect in jr, and he plays in the hardest league to score in.

Wait till training camp, Jake will turn some heads.

[BanTSN]

Flawed analogy. There's no equivalent to training camp in med school, which is where NHL teams base a lot of their decisions for the upcoming season. Remember Grabner? Strong seasons in the AHL but weak training camps each year doomed him to trade/waivers.

Plus wow, could you have picked a longer, more convoluted way to explain something on a hockey board? Unless we all went to med school that's about as helpful as explaining Jake's odds by comparing it to the uncertainty principal in quantum mechanics...

I know right? Maybe somebody should just stay in school, because hockey is out of grasp.

At the end of the day it's up to the Canucks. I could care less what these statwatching nancies say, but we could do without a big pile of flawed arguments and misinformation, and instead perhaps support the prospect in question.

[Odd.]

Would you rather hold off on Virtanen so instead of being surrounded by a lot of help like the Sedins, Vrbata, etc. he instead had to account for a lot of offensive responsibility like Doan and Neider had to put up right out the gate? I don't think you're giving the Canucks enough credit. Did they rush Horvat? No. He's still technically on the 4th line and they're letting him develop as a pro in the NHL against all sorts of NHL competition. That is how you learn to be an effective NHL player. Is Virtanen going to learn that in junior? No. When he's ready, he's ready, and that's up to the team.

All those other players you mention are totally irrelevant, but your assessment on them is off, because statwatching, and totally ignoring their status on actual NHL readiness. (size, speed and strength) Searching through past stats, you'll find that dominating a junior league offensively can at times mean totally nothing. Remember Coho? lul. Future captain, all star, sniper, high hockey iq, etc. who had a big problem developing an NHL skating stride and is still utterly clueless without the puck. Remember Dane Fox? lul. Future Canucks sniper. Can't skate worth a damn though. People here underrate the physical tools that are needed to become a truly great player in the NHL. Virtanen, with his elite shot, elite skating ability and elite physicality has those tools already. Now it's only a matter of rounding out his game, which he has been doing all season.

As for Horvat, a lot of people here had concerns about him too, because of his skating, mainly. He was supposed to stay in junior for another year, play in the WJC's, etc. Instead the team thought it was best that he started developing as an NHLer against NHL competion because he was considered ready.

Now, Jake is a bit of a young prospect still, so MAYBE the team will feel that some more time against some crap competition will do him some good, but I highly doubt it. I don't think the team feels that he'll learn anything useful in junior, and this urge to see him stay down there just comes from people who want to continue rag on his statistical output while ignoring the fact that his points-per-minute output is elite against his current competition, despite having so-so power play time and linemates.

Honestly the only thing I see slowing Jake down is that he'll be dragging hundreds of puckbunnies around with him. lul

I actually agree with you.

[JiffyPB]

Flawed analogy. There's no equivalent to training camp in med school, which is where NHL teams base a lot of their decisions for the upcoming season. Remember Grabner? Strong seasons in the AHL but weak training camps each year doomed him to trade/waivers.

Plus wow, could you have picked a longer, more convoluted way to explain something on a hockey board? Unless we all went to med school that's about as helpful as explaining Jake's odds by comparing it to the uncertainty principal in quantum mechanics...

Most teams don't base decisions just on training camp. Training camp is the last step, what you did prior is far more important. What Jake is on pace to do this season is weak based on what is expected out of a 6th overall pick and even what his peers are doing. Add to that this team is deep on the wing and the chances of him making the team are nill.

The Canucks planned on going in with Henrik, Bonino, Richardson and Vey as the 4 centermen. Horvat didn't make the team based on what he was going to be doing this season, Horvat made the team because he was just good enough and was a good investment moving forward. There is a massive 15 year age gap between Henrik Sedin and Horvat, the guy who you believe is going to be a core player for you going forward. Having him be in the NHL now, even though they only expected him to be playing at replacement level, means he can acclimate faster and in turn potentially become the player he is projected to be faster, which means life after the Sedin contracts expire is not going to be as painful. His 2-way acumen and attention to detail also helps in terms of winning over any coach.

Horvat only registered 7 points in his first 34 games and 3 of them came from riding off Hansen's hat trick. That investment paid off when injuries hampered this team and he began to produce for us as his confidence grew over time and was given a bigger role. Note how well Horvat did in his final year of juniors. Most London fans said he was as good as gone while our pathetic media labelled him as 3rd line center of the future and most of CDC did not expect him to last more than 9 games. Virtanen is NOWHERE as dominant as Horvat was last season and we have a lot more youth on the wing (Kassian, Jensen, Baertschi, Shinkaruk) competing for spots/bigger roles than Horvat did this year (only Vey lol). Look at what McCann has done this season and what he has been asked to do for his team and then look at what Virtanen has been asked to do and what he has done.

Edited March 15, 2015 by ghjffbali

[Ghostsof1915]

Players paths to the NHL differ based on their abilities. Some players can make the jump right out of junior. Some need as much time in the AHL as possible. I'm curious to see what happens next training camp. I'd give good odds that he can be good enough to get a 10 game look at the NHL. If he goes to the AHL, thats's fine with me. It's all a part of his development. Some players learn the pro game faster than others. If he's not ready, he's not ready. But if he is, he brings a size and scoring element that is tailor made for the Western Conference. I'm also not going to freak out and declare him a bust if he's a part of the cuts in pre-season.

I think we have a fantastic prospect here, I'm pretty sure Benning, and company know what they are doing.

[asian player]

Jake is an amazing player on the rush. His speed, size, and shot makes him very effective. However, he still has a lot to learn when the puck is not on his stick. His positioning is still weak at times. For him to make his way into the lineup, there will have to be a lot of trading to make room for him. I know what Benning said, but it's going to be very difficult. And besides, next year will be huge for him. The overagers are gone, so he will have a huge role in Calgary. He will also have a big role in the WJC. Next year is when he will be leader, and we'll see if he can really take initiative and drive the bus.

[messier's_elbow]

Schroeder was working on gis defense. Thats why he wasnt scoring either. That argument is only made when homers have no real explanation as to why a player isnt scoring but dont have the balls to question the players skill/ability.

Your comparing Schroeder to Virtanen and got 3 pluses for it? lol

I guess I have balls then cause I criticize when its warrented. I said Jakes positioning needs work but other then that he looks like he has all the tools and the drive to be a good pro.