Tambellini's Wrist Shot Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Different players score their goals in different ways. You could argue some elite players don't need to have high hockey IQ to score the goals they do because they make up for it in their physical abilities. I would argue Ovechkin and Stamkos don't have elite hockey IQ when compared to Crosby or Giroux, but they make up for it by being physical beasts. Dynamic skating and wicked slap shots are all you need to score goals, you don't have to be an elite passer, slick dangler, or a master at the cycle. You need to be able to find the soft spots on the ice, which Virtanen does okay, but not well. An example of someone who does it extremely well is Boeser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tambellini's Wrist Shot Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 He may have being driving the play but he is no Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Tavares ETC. My definition of elite is top 10 in the league Edit here is my top 10 in no specific order Crosby Tavares Stamkos Ovi Malkin Tarasenko Seguin Karlsson Johnson Dats Even though over the last 3 seasons, Kessel is 9th overall in points? Nah, not elite at all.http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-3-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nave Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 I would like you to show me a 40 goal scoring, first line winger that doesn't have elite offensive awareness/hockey IQ. There is a laundry list of players with mediocre hockey IQ that have played well with the Sedins. It's like playing with Steve Nash in his prime--you do not necessarily see the pass coming, but know to stay on your toes. I'm just saying that spending some time with them on the ice would help him learn the cycle, which IS one of the weakest parts of his game. You're conflating the risk of not becoming a 1st line player with the risk of not having an NHL career at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tambellini's Wrist Shot Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 There is a laundry list of players with mediocre hockey IQ that have played well with the Sedins. It's like playing with Steve Nash in his prime--you do not necessarily see the pass coming, but know to stay on your toes. I'm just saying that spending some time with them on the ice would help him learn the cycle, which IS one of the weakest parts of his game. You're conflating the risk of not becoming a 1st line player with the risk of not having an NHL career at all. I guess I probably should rephrase the point I'm trying to make. If you put Jake on a line with a centre like McCann or Horvat, who will both be pretty good, two way centre men, he won't be an elite scorer. In order for Jake to be an elite scorer in this league, he would need to play with an elite playmaking centreman. Jake doesn't have the offensive ability to be "the guy" on a first line in the NHL. However, he would be a very good complement to an elite playmaking centre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gstank29 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) Even though over the last 3 seasons, Kessel is 9th overall in points? Nah, not elite at all.http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-3-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html Points has nothing to do with having Elite hockey IQ. Hockey IQ is your ability to create scoring chances from nothing and make you linemates better, Kessel doesn't have either of these qualities at an ELITE level. Also using points as way of evaluating a players hockey IQ isn't a strong arguement at all. Infact some of the names under Kessel (Kane, Dats ETC) definitely have a higher Hockey IQ than Kessel. Your proof also doesn't account for injuries or for a players PPG over that period of time. PPG he is 15th http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-3-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html 52nd in PPG last year http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/2014-15-nhl-players-stats.html 22nd over the last 2 season. http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-2-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html Last 4 Seasons 15th http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-4-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html Last 5 season 18th http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/last-5-nhl-seasons-players-stats.html His point producing has been in a decline over the last 3 years, players with Elite hockey IQ always find a way to generate points. That being said he's going to put up big numbers with Crosby Edited September 7, 2015 by Gstank29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tambellini's Wrist Shot Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) Points has nothing to do with having Elite hockey IQ. Hockey IQ is your ability to create scoring chances from nothing and make you linemates better, Kessel doesn't have either of these qualities at an ELITE level. Also using points as way of evaluating a players hockey IQ isn't a strong arguement at all. Infact some of the names under Kessel (Kane, Dats ETC) definitely have a higher Hockey IQ than Kessel. Your proof also doesn't account for injuries or for a players PPG over that period of time. Kessel's PPG isn't as high as other players below him. However, you have to remember that Kessel has played for the frickin Leafs for the past 5 or 6 (?) years. I think people will finally realize that Phil Kessel is one of the best players in the league this season. Wouldn't be surprised if he won the RR trophy. EDIT: Also, Phil Kessel DOES make his line mates better. I can pull up some stats to actually, you know, back up my claims. Edited September 7, 2015 by Tambellini's Wrist Shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uselessstats Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Different players score their goals in different ways. You could argue some elite players don't need to have high hockey IQ to score the goals they do because they make up for it in their physical abilities. I would argue Ovechkin and Stamkos don't have elite hockey IQ when compared to Crosby or Giroux, but they make up for it by being physical beasts. Dynamic skating and wicked slap shots are all you need to score goals, you don't have to be an elite passer, slick dangler, or a master at the cycle. Oh I agree with this 100%. It's more of a response to the poster who goes on and on about players "needing" elite hockey IQ to be a top scorer then arguing a guy like Kessel - who does not have elite IQ (IMO) but rather elite skills - does in fact have elite IQ because ... circular logic time ... he has put up elite points! Basically he's created a self-fulfilling argument with no explanation for how he actually defines hockey IQ or why he thinks Jake lacks it while someone like Kessel supposedly has it at an "elite" level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) I guess I probably should rephrase the point I'm trying to make. If you put Jake on a line with a centre like McCann or Horvat, who will both be pretty good, two way centre men, he won't be an elite scorer. In order for Jake to be an elite scorer in this league, he would need to play with an elite playmaking centreman. Jake doesn't have the offensive ability to be "the guy" on a first line in the NHL. However, he would be a very good complement to an elite playmaking centre.It would work just as well with an elite play making LW. Here's hoping Baer is that guy.. But we have about 5 years to also find/draft/trade for an elite, playmaking 1c. It would be nice but it's not ABSOLUTELY necessary IMO. Edited September 7, 2015 by J.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJDDawg Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Kessel's PPG isn't as high as other players below him. However, you have to remember that Kessel has played for the frickin Leafs for the past 5 or 6 (?) years. I think people will finally realize that Phil Kessel is one of the best players in the league this season. Wouldn't be surprised if he won the RR trophy. EDIT: Also, Phil Kessel DOES make his line mates better. I can pull up some stats to actually, you know, back up my claims. One page back, you shrug off someone's post about Jake being a product of poor coaching and a bad team to express your concern about his hockey IQ, yet now you turn around and use it to support your argument for Kessel's hockey IQ. Just give it a rest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tambellini's Wrist Shot Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 One page back, you shrug off someone's post about Jake being a product of poor coaching and a bad team to express your concern about his hockey IQ, yet now you turn around and use it to support your argument for Kessel's hockey IQ. Just give it a rest. Jake has had poor coaching, but he hasn't played for a bad team. The Hitmen made it to the conference finals this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gstank29 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Kessel's PPG isn't as high as other players below him. However, you have to remember that Kessel has played for the frickin Leafs for the past 5 or 6 (?) years. I think people will finally realize that Phil Kessel is one of the best players in the league this season. Wouldn't be surprised if he won the RR trophy. EDIT: Also, Phil Kessel DOES make his line mates better. I can pull up some stats to actually, you know, back up my claims. Advance stats never tell the whole story so please don't try to us that to back up your points. The only way I use advance stats is when they are coupled together with a couple other things because when you use them separately you get all kinds of weird outliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) You need to be able to find the soft spots on the ice, which Virtanen does okay, but not well. An example of someone who does it extremely well is Boeser. True, but at the same time guys like Stamkos and Ovechkin create their own space through their skating. With speed like that you can make your own space. I would also say they relied on guys with high hockey IQ in St.Louis and Backstrom to make sure they got the puck in open ice. Virtanen may need a guy like that centering him in order to really shine. Edited September 7, 2015 by DeNiro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tambellini's Wrist Shot Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 True, but at the same time guys like Stamkos and Ovechkin create their own space through their skating. With speed like that you can make your own space. I would also say they relied on guys with high hockey IQ in St.Louis and Backstrom to make sure they got the puck in open ice. Virtanen may need a guy like that centering him in order to really shine. For sure, DeNiro. If we could somehow get our hands on an elite playmaking centre, Virt would shine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tambellini's Wrist Shot Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Advance stats never tell the whole story so please don't try to us that to back up your points. The only way I use advance stats is when they are coupled together with a couple other things because when you use them separately you get all kinds of weird outliers. http://www.pensburgh.com/2015/7/13/8925329/phil-kessel-advanced-stats-pittsburgh-penguins Read the article before you just stick your head in the sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gstank29 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) http://www.pensburgh.com/2015/7/13/8925329/phil-kessel-advanced-stats-pittsburgh-penguins Read the article before you just stick your head in the sand Nothing that says that he has a ELITE offensive awareness. Again my definition of elite is top 10 in the league and usually you find an unbias article that compares him to other elite players you aren't going to change my opinion. There are lots of players that make there linemates better, doesn't mean they have elite offensive hockey IQ Also Corsi is shots for and against, Kessel is a shooter so of course there corsi is going to be better doesn't mean he makes them better as hockey players Edited September 7, 2015 by Gstank29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tambellini's Wrist Shot Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Nothing that says that he has a ELITE offensive awareness. Again my definition of elite is top 10 in the league and usually you find an unbias article that compares him to other elite players you aren't going to change my opinion. There are lots of players that make there linemates better, doesn't mean they have elite offensive hockey IQ Also Corsi is shots for and against, Kessel is a shooter so of course there corsi is going to be better I wasn't trying to prove that he has elite offensive awareness. I was proving that he makes his linemates better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollieo Del Fuego Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 For sure, DeNiro. If we could somehow get our hands on an elite playmaking centre, Virt would shine. Cassels... McCann... Horvat ... Zukenov .... all have potential to become a 1C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tambellini's Wrist Shot Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) Cassels... McCann... Horvat ... Zukenov .... all have potential to become a 1C. ......seriously? Jeez some people need to temper their expectations when it comes to our prospects. I'd say out of all of those guys, Horvat is the only one with a chance at a first line role. Edited September 7, 2015 by Tambellini's Wrist Shot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gstank29 Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) I wasn't trying to prove that he has elite offensive awareness. I was proving that he makes his linemates better. And lots of players do the same, doesn't mean they have Elite offensive awareness, it means they have chemistry. Again Corsi is shots on goal Kessel is a shooter, is of course those numbers are going to be better.... Edited September 7, 2015 by Gstank29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollieo Del Fuego Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 ......seriously? Jeez some people need to temper their expectations when it comes to our prospects. Suit yourself...see the world your own way.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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