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Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW


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5 hours ago, ice orca said:

Horvat had a much better overall game when he was drafted. He was known for his 200 ft game in junior, J ake not so much. You can see the same thing with McCann as with Bo that 200 ft game he was playing in junior. Hits are good but I want more out of him and it is going to take time and he seems to be flat lining right now. I hope they send him to the WJC because I think the experience will rejuvenate him. I laugh at people saying it wont do him any good going back to play against kids in this tourney. Look at some of the top rated talent on other teams there.

The thing is, it's not going to matter what "you" want. That's not going to change that fact that Virtanen has a niche on the team and is not going to be sent to junior as a result.

My comparison with Horvat was with why both prospects made the team. They both found a niche that allowed them to stay. If Horvat didn't have those faceoffs last year, he likely would have been sent back to the OHL last year.

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8 hours ago, Ihatetomatoes said:

I see more of a comparison to McCann this year as horvat last year,  not virtanen. Both played solid in they're roles and make few mistakes. They filled a need on the team while showing that they belong and getting a little better every game. 

While virtanen does fill a niche that we need, he doesn't hit on the regular and floats most of the time. He doesn't look to be improving much either. He wasn't drafted to be a 2 way guy with the hope of some offence like Horvat. He was drafted to be a goal scoring power forward.

It's really all hearsay and guesswork on what's best for him so we'll have to agree to disagree on what we think is best. 

Also looking at horvats struggles this year, who's to say it wasn't the best move to keep him up. Look at Domi's or Draitle's dominance this year, hard to argue that the extra year in junior is a bad thing. Maybe Horvat would have been better off with the extra year of juniors, some domination in the world juniors and this year being eased into a role in the NHL. 

There are going to be examples throughout the league of players who needed that extra year in junior and players who didn't. Players develop at different paces.

I think what it comes down to in the end is we have to be patient with Virtanen, and not in a sense that he "needs to be sent back to junior".  We need to be patient with him as he develops with the Canucks. While he fills that niche of hitting on the team, we need to be patient while he develops his other parts of the game. He has a unique situation where he can develop in the very league he's been developing for all his life. Not every prospect gets that chance. In fact, hardly any prospect gets that chance.

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On 2015-12-02, 3:47:09, ShakyWalton said:

I dont know what you are suggesting here..that I should be the new GM because I stated an opinion..opinions are like you know what..everyone has one...I was never good at writing a thesis so Ill pass..but I would suggest if you ever write one,,use spell check.

"Everyone" includes Benning and Canucks management, so if all opinions here are "no worse" that theirs, then some here have apparently missed their calling as NHL GMs, talent evaluators, and directors of player development.  As for spelling, not sure what you think was wrong there, but sorry if it offended your lack of thesis experience ;)

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6 hours ago, The Lock said:

There are going to be examples throughout the league of players who needed that extra year in junior and players who didn't. Players develop at different paces.

I think what it comes down to in the end is we have to be patient with Virtanen, and not in a sense that he "needs to be sent back to junior".  We need to be patient with him as he develops with the Canucks. While he fills that niche of hitting on the team, we need to be patient while he develops his other parts of the game. He has a unique situation where he can develop in the very league he's been developing for all his life. Not every prospect gets that chance. In fact, hardly any prospect gets that chance.

I get that. He does have the physical abilities to compete and he could develop just fine in the NHL. 

The problem for me is that since his 45 goal pre draft year he has seemed to stall or regress offensively and there is a distinct possibly that his offensive game won't develop playing in the NHL. Maybe it will but if it were up to me I wouldn't sacrifice long term potential for short term team needs. I'd hate to have used our top pick since the Sedins on a guy who never develops to be be more than a 3rd liner. 

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7 minutes ago, Ihatetomatoes said:

I get that. He does have the physical abilities to compete and he could develop just fine in the NHL. 

The problem for me is that since his 45 goal pre draft year he has seemed to stall or regress offensively and there is a distinct possibly that his offensive game won't develop playing in the NHL. Maybe it will but if it were up to me I wouldn't sacrifice long term potential for short term team needs. I'd hate to have used our top pick since the Sedins on a guy who never develops to be be more than a 3rd liner. 

I don't see why we should be speculating that he won't become a top 6 forward when it's only been 20-25 games into the season. It's almost as if the word "patience" is a swear word to CDC at times.

One thing people forget is that Virtanen was injured at the start of the season last year. His production didn't really taper off. His ppg totals remained roughly the same coming off the injury and it's not easy starting the season later than everyone else, so I think that should be considered a positive rather than a negative.

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9 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I don't see why we should be speculating that he won't become a top 6 forward when it's only been 20-25 games into the season. It's almost as if the word "patience" is a swear word to CDC at times.

One thing people forget is that Virtanen was injured at the start of the season last year. His production didn't really taper off. His ppg totals remained roughly the same coming off the injury and it's not easy starting the season later than everyone else, so I think that should be considered a positive rather than a negative.

Patience is what almost everyone is screaming, it's impatient to have him playing right now with the team. JB had stated many times that unfortunately the team sacrificed picks and prospects for a shot at the cup and now young guys are having to be put in the lineup ahead of schedule in the hope that their development can be hurried up. It could work but it's anything but patient. 

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2 hours ago, The Lock said:

I don't see why we should be speculating that he won't become a top 6 forward when it's only been 20-25 games into the season. It's almost as if the word "patience" is a swear word to CDC at times.

One thing people forget is that Virtanen was injured at the start of the season last year. His production didn't really taper off. His ppg totals remained roughly the same coming off the injury and it's not easy starting the season later than everyone else, so I think that should be considered a positive rather than a negative.

It's the fact that he has shown very little progression offensively. And considering the situation that he has been put in, it's hardly surprising why. He barely gets any time on the ice and is frequently benched because the coach doesn't trust him when the game is on the line. This isn't about being impatient, he is a rookie. No one expected him to come in and put up points but the situation he has been put in is not exactly a great one either. The concern is that his progression does not follow that of a guy like Tom Wilson, who was also put in a situation where the team needed his physicality and he too played a role like that of Jake. 

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15 hours ago, Ihatetomatoes said:

Patience is what almost everyone is screaming, it's impatient to have him playing right now with the team. JB had stated many times that unfortunately the team sacrificed picks and prospects for a shot at the cup and now young guys are having to be put in the lineup ahead of schedule in the hope that their development can be hurried up. It could work but it's anything but patient. 

It's not impatient to have him playing with the team. In that regard, I completely disagree with you. Also, your JB statement is not exactly correct. While JB has stated that we have an older group and not as many prospects to come in, he didn't mention anything about putting prospects ahead of schedule from all of the interviews I've heard. Please. There's a difference between stating what someone has said and altering that person's words to sound like something else.

11 hours ago, Toews said:

It's the fact that he has shown very little progression offensively. And considering the situation that he has been put in, it's hardly surprising why. He barely gets any time on the ice and is frequently benched because the coach doesn't trust him when the game is on the line. This isn't about being impatient, he is a rookie. No one expected him to come in and put up points but the situation he has been put in is not exactly a great one either. The concern is that his progression does not follow that of a guy like Tom Wilson, who was also put in a situation where the team needed his physicality and he too played a role like that of Jake. 

So what? It's 20-25 games into the season. I'd like to see us give him as least a full season before we start to worry, maybe even 2. But hey, if CDC wants a bunch of ulcers on their hands, who am I to stop them from getting them. lol

You're not expecting points, yet you're worried about his offensive progression? His progression shouldn't be following anyone. Virtanen is Virtanen and, if we start comparing him to other players and claim "this is how he should develop" then we're putting unreasonable expectations on him.

Can we at least give him a season or 2 before we start worrying?

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Hope I am wrong, but I see JV getting injured a lot. Big body, hits hard. Gotta be tough on shoulders (already has had one surgery) back, neck, knees, even head. The day he begins to pass up big hits, his usefulness drops off. Then you have a big body who doesn't score very much. I think he'd be better off back in the WHL; he needs to be dominant.

 

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1 hour ago, The Lock said:

So what? It's 20-25 games into the season. I'd like to see us give him as least a full season before we start to worry, maybe even 2. But hey, if CDC wants a bunch of ulcers on their hands, who am I to stop them from getting them. lol

You're not expecting points, yet you're worried about his offensive progression? His progression shouldn't be following anyone. Virtanen is Virtanen and, if we start comparing him to other players and claim "this is how he should develop" then we're putting unreasonable expectations on him.

Can we at least give him a season or 2 before we start worrying?

So you are willing to write off the next season or two before you "worry" about his development? Good for you but not everyone feels the same. These next couple of years after going to be critical for JV's development and I personally think he needs to be put in a situation to succeed.

By offensive progression, I don't just mean points. Points are hard to come back considering the team and role he has been given. But I expect to see improvement in his game and to me there hasn't been enough to justify keeping him here. I hope he goes to the WJC and then subsequently back to the WHL. Maybe Benning can use his influence to force a trade if feels that Calgary is not the right place. Leaving him here with Willie running the show will mean he will continue to get limited minutes and benched on a whim. I want to see him play and not just for 7 min/ night.

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7 minutes ago, Toews said:

So you are willing to write off the next season or two before you "worry" about his development? Good for you but not everyone feels the same. These next couple of years after going to be critical for JV's development and I personally think he needs to be put in a situation to succeed.

By offensive progression, I don't just mean points. Points are hard to come back considering the team and role he has been given. But I expect to see improvement in his game and to me there hasn't been enough to justify keeping him here. I hope he goes to the WJC and then subsequently back to the WHL. Maybe Benning can use his influence to force a trade if feels that Calgary is not the right place. Leaving him here with Willie running the show will mean he will continue to get limited minutes and benched on a whim. I want to see him play and not just for 7 min/ night.

Well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but I have to disagree still. Honestly, I doubt any of us know more than Benning and WD in terms of development. We'd like to I'm sure, but we don't. We don't even know the whole story. We don't know what goes on behind the scenes. We don't know the lessons WD is teaching Virt. We don't know what he's being told at all. We all just have a tiny window seat and we were never even given a pair of binoculars.

That's also why I continue my stance. If I'm being honest, I don't think you know more than Benning of WD. I don't think I know more than him. I don't think any of us does. So I'd rather just watch Virtanen develop. As I've said before, physically he's outgrown the WHL. Playing against the men will help improve his game that way. Offensive skills can come later.

I don't even focus on where he was drafted. I don't care. I only care about what comes later. Any prospect/player will likely tell you this: "what you do after the draft is far more important than where you're drafted". So let's see how he develops rather than focusing on where, yes?

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You want to see how a NHL  GM can mishandle a the development of a prospect just look at the Oilers. GM's are not infallable. I'd like to think they were but they're not...enter stage left Baertschi who we were assured by Big Jim was a coronation waiting to happen....NOT !  There's some questionable decissions already in JB short career here....some good....but some bad too

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43 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

You want to see how a NHL  GM can mishandle a the development of a prospect just look at the Oilers. GM's are not infallable. I'd like to think they were but they're not...enter stage left Baertschi who we were assured by Big Jim was a coronation waiting to happen....NOT !  There's some questionable decissions already in JB short career here....some good....but some bad too

This doesn't mean though that fans are infallible either. GM's are just less likely to be infallible. I'm not saying GM's can't make mistakes. I'm saying GM's tend to know more than we do.

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59 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

You want to see how a NHL  GM can mishandle a the development of a prospect just look at the Oilers. GM's are not infallable. I'd like to think they were but they're not...enter stage left Baertschi who we were assured by Big Jim was a coronation waiting to happen....NOT !  There's some questionable decissions already in JB short career here....some good....but some bad too

The guy is human lets not forget. He didn't get left with a whole lot in the cupboard from the last regime and had to take a chance on some guys ie the veys baers of the worlds. He took a risk on these guys. If there was no risk these players would not have been made available. The oilers and canucks are apples and oranges when it comes to developing prospects. Our prospects came in with low expectations and complimentary players. Oilers prospects came in as their top players pn the team. I do agree obviously that the oiler way is the bad way.

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24 minutes ago, manroth19 said:

The guy is human lets not forget. He didn't get left with a whole lot in the cupboard from the last regime and had to take a chance on some guys ie the veys baers of the worlds. He took a risk on these guys. If there was no risk these players would not have been made available. The oilers and canucks are apples and oranges when it comes to developing prospects. Our prospects came in with low expectations and complimentary players. Oilers prospects came in as their top players pn the team. I do agree obviously that the oiler way is the bad way.

Good post. If people are looking for the "perfect" GM, they'll likely be looking forever. No one is perfect. It's even an age old saying in society.

The truth is we're going through a re-tool. Unless if there's a handbook out there to outline what exactly one should be doing in a re-tool, it's going to be the interpretation of the GM and whoever else has an actual say in it.

There's risk everywhere in this league. Every player, every pick, every transaction has a certain risk involved. Edmonton's ways in the past few years were risky. They didn't provide their prospects with vets or players to compliment their styles. They relied solely on their 1st overall picks to lift them up and carry the team. When Crosby started in the NHL with Pittsburgh, he had vets like Palffy, Recchi, and Leclair to help him out. When Stamkos entered the league, he had St. Louis and Lecavalier. Who did Hall have? Hemsky? Horcoff?

We should be thankful that our prospects are learning in a completely different environment from Edmonton. Our prospects have players like the Sedins to look up to. It minimizes the risk to an extent when you can get that mentorship from your vets like we have. Who knows what players like Virtanen develop into, but let's not forget he's a 19 year old. That's a lot of hockey to play before "judgement" should even be made in my opinion.

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1 hour ago, The Lock said:

This doesn't mean though that fans are infallible either. GM's are just less likely to be infallible. I'm not saying GM's can't make mistakes. I'm saying GM's tend to know more than we do.

Of course not but the premise is don't believe because he's a GM he's infallible. Fans give opinions and that's the bases for having a forum. Fans opinions shouldn't be disregarded with well " He's the GM and he knows"  clearly that's not the case in many cases.

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6 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

Of course not but the premise is don't believe because he's a GM he's infallible. Fans give opinions and that's the bases for having a forum. Fans opinions shouldn't be disregarded with well " He's the GM and he knows"  clearly that's not the case in many cases.

If you read my post above your's, you'd see that I'm agreeing with a guy claiming Benning is human. I would like to use that as my answer to your reply.

Also, I'm still saying that GM's typically have more knowledge than the average fan. They have the hands-on experience. They have inside knowledge. They have a lot more tools at their disposal than our window seats. I don't think it's unreasonable to have confidence in a GM. I don't think anyone's perfect, but I'm more inclined to believe who I deem as more knowledgeable.

Let's also not forget that the fanbase on CDC comes with so many mixed opinions. Just because fans "think" they know more, in a lot of cases (I'm inclined to say most cases even) they don't.

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I think the problem is that Benning has to choose whether to develop this guy in the juniors or the NHL when in reality JVs best learning curve per game is most likely in the AHL which hes too young for.

 

JB probably does want to have Jake grow as much as possible but calculated that he'll do his best growth in the NHL where its easier to keep an eye on him. I'm sure if Virtanen were allowed, he'd be placed there. Its too bad that it isn't an option right now.

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17 hours ago, The Lock said:

It's not impatient to have him playing with the team. In that regard, I completely disagree with you. Also, your JB statement is not exactly correct. While JB has stated that we have an older group and not as many prospects to come in, he didn't mention anything about putting prospects ahead of schedule from all of the interviews I've heard. Please. There's a difference between stating what someone has said and altering that person's words to sound like something else.

So what? It's 20-25 games into the season. I'd like to see us give him as least a full season before we start to worry, maybe even 2. But hey, if CDC wants a bunch of ulcers on their hands, who am I to stop them from getting them. lol

You're not expecting points, yet you're worried about his offensive progression? His progression shouldn't be following anyone. Virtanen is Virtanen and, if we start comparing him to other players and claim "this is how he should develop" then we're putting unreasonable expectations on him.

Can we at least give him a season or 2 before we start worrying?

I'm not going to dig through interviews and such to find the exact quote but it went along the line of "we now have guys in the lineup that are young and inexperienced that are being worked with to move the development along sooner".  It makes sense from a gms perspective as he knows he needs to try and get something out of this team before the Sedins retire. I think he's hoping that giving spots to McCann and Virtanen now they can be developed a rapid pace. It makes sense with  what he's said and what is happening with the team, also why virtanen got a spot over Gaunce who looked better in the preseason and has paid his dues in the AHL. I can see it working with McCann because he has that competitive fire and the smarts to learn and get better,  you don't hear people saying  he needs to go down. (i still think it would be better but he is competitive here and getting better). But Virtanen is different and more raw and IMO has a higher chance of stalling in development being in the NHL. 

 

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  • -Vintage Canuck- changed the title to Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW
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