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Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW


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Depth at center?

Horvat

Mccaan

Cassels

Guance

These guys are much more like the type of centers that any of the cup winners in the last 5-6 years have throughout their line up. Every single one of these teams have 200' centers throughout their line up from top to bottom. Who is the last offensive minded first line center to win a cup? Maybe Crosby, but guess what? He is Sidney Crosby. The trend does not support your opinion.

When you have the depth that we have, in our prospect pool, at center it make sense to begin drafting other positions.

Toews. Kopitar. Krejci. These names ring a bell? No, they're not "purely offensive players" but their skill level was far higher than any of our prospects when they were in their respective junior leagues.

There's a fine line between developing solid, two way centers in the hope that they'll end up becoming the next Bergeron/Kopitar/Kesler/Toews, and ending up with a bunch of checking centers who don't have enough skill to finish. I'd rather draft pure skill and teach defence than draft big physical centers and hope we can teach them offence, because it hasn't worked for many teams. Most of the time, players are drafted who can score and they're groomed into defensive experts (something Detroit has done very well, and the same way Kopitar has developed).

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Nylander would have given us considerable depth down the middle but more importantly, an elite talent at center. If the last dozen Cup champs have taught us anything, it's that you build a Cup winning team and franchise around a good centerman and depth at center, not a star winger.

You're close, but missed by a little.

Cup winning teams have gritty centreman that play a 200 ft game.

Toews

Crosby

Kopitar

Bergeron

Getzlaf

1 dimensional lightsweights that will likely get hospitalized in their first playoff series don't win championships.

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Toews. Kopitar. Krejci. These names ring a bell? No, they're not "purely offensive players" but their skill level was far higher than any of our prospects when they were in their respective junior leagues.

There's a fine line between developing solid, two way centers in the hope that they'll end up becoming the next Bergeron/Kopitar/Kesler/Toews, and ending up with a bunch of checking centers who don't have enough skill to finish. I'd rather draft pure skill and teach defence than draft big physical centers and hope we can teach them offence, because it hasn't worked for many teams. Most of the time, players are drafted who can score and they're groomed into defensive experts (something Detroit has done very well, and the same way Kopitar has developed).

No they are not purely offensive players...that was exactly my point. They are all the first line centers of the last 5 cup winning teams, they are all 200' foot centers, and that is not even close to what Nylander projects to be.

I'm not saying he won't be a good or even great player; however, as you confirmed in this response, he is not the type of center that cup winning teams are built around these days.

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Nylander is scoring at over a point per game in the SEL as an 18 year old kid.

Nylander has always been considered a good player, but you keep bringing up his post-draft statistics like everyone pre-draft should have known he'd do this well. Who was supposed to know that he would improve from 0.32 PPG to 1.38 PPG?

EDIT:

On a Jake Virtanen note, he was on the ice for a SH goal against. 1-0 for Moose Jaw early in the game.

Edited by Canucks1219
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No they are not purely offensive players...that was exactly my point. They are all the first line centers of the last 5 cup winning teams, they are all 200' foot centers, and that is not even close to what Nylander projects to be.

I'm not saying he won't be a good or even great player; however, as you confirmed in this response, he is not the type of center that cup winning teams are built around these days.

Did you not read my reply? Look how all of those players began their careers.

Kopitar was a combined -44 in his first 3 seasons in the NHL. He was pathetic defensively, but was a scoring machine and put up around 60-70 points in each of those seasons. Then, slowly over time, he rounded out his game and became much better in his own zone defensively which we are seeing now as a final product of about a decade in the NHL. Key point is, he started off with those gifted offensive abilities and learned how to play good defence.

David Krejci was almost the same. He was a scoring machine in the Q and even when he broke into the NHL, wasn't a defensive stalwart, but he learned it over time (much quicker than Kopitar).

Toews has always been more of a two-way center but he plays on a line with a generational offensive talent in Kane who had a similar path to Kopitar.

What I'm trying to say is that yes, you can try and hit it lucky with a "perfect" two-way center who can score and play well defensively, but those players are RARE. Toews is honestly the only one that I could think of who came into the NHL as a scoring threat and played well defensively. Find me another kid who was that well rounded and I'd be impressed.

Just about every other successful player started off as a scoring machine, put up huge numbers in junior, came into the league and scored at a high pace and learned how to play well defensively over the next couple of seasons. That list includes guys like Sharp, Hossa, Carter and Bergeron.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - you can develop and teach good defence. You can't teach pure offensive skill.

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Scouts and GMs get paid big bucks to do exactly that. No doubt the Canucks got a good player in Virtanen, but Toronto scouts hit one out of the park with this one.

Yea, I'm sure having Kessel and Nylander on their top line against the Bruins will go real well.

Nylander is a highly skilled player, but he's not the type of player that we needed for the bigger tougher West. We didn't miss out on anything, we chose to go with a player that would be a better fit to what Benning is building. Which is hopefully a team similar to the Bruins.

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Scouts and GMs get paid big bucks to do exactly that. No doubt the Canucks got a good player in Virtanen, but Toronto scouts hit one out of the park with this one.

Just stop. Virtanen is a beast goal scorer who is physical and fast. Benning in no way picked him just because he's a BC boy.

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Did you not read my reply? Look how all of those players began their careers.

Kopitar was a combined -44 in his first 3 seasons in the NHL. He was pathetic defensively, but was a scoring machine and put up around 60-70 points in each of those seasons. Then, slowly over time, he rounded out his game and became much better in his own zone defensively which we are seeing now as a final product of about a decade in the NHL. Key point is, he started off with those gifted offensive abilities and learned how to play good defence.

David Krejci was almost the same. He was a scoring machine in the Q and even when he broke into the NHL, wasn't a defensive stalwart, but he learned it over time (much quicker than Kopitar).

Toews has always been more of a two-way center but he plays on a line with a generational offensive talent in Kane who had a similar path to Kopitar.

What I'm trying to say is that yes, you can try and hit it lucky with a "perfect" two-way center who can score and play well defensively, but those players are RARE. Toews is honestly the only one that I could think of who came into the NHL as a scoring threat and played well defensively. Find me another kid who was that well rounded and I'd be impressed.

Just about every other successful player started off as a scoring machine, put up huge numbers in junior, came into the league and scored at a high pace and learned how to play well defensively over the next couple of seasons. That list includes guys like Sharp, Hossa, Carter and Bergeron.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - you can develop and teach good defence. You can't teach pure offensive skill.

Krecji was a +37 in his first full NHL season

Like you said Teows is Teows

Kopitar developed the way he did because he is Kopitar. Everybody develops according to their own circumstances.

I am not saying he won't be a good player but I do not see him developing on par with any of the above centers. Not even close.

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Just saw this post from DownUndaCanuck in the Cassels thread:

Cassels, McCann and even perhaps Vey are making a serious play for the Canucks top-2 center positions once Henrik and Bonino slow down their place. The Sedins are proving they've still got great scoring ability but Bonino is probably better suited to a 3rd line center duty, and Richardson/Matthias really are no better than 4th line centers. That means that we'll have the next 3 or 4 years to slowly transition from Henrik-Bonino-Richardson into something more along the lines of Cassels-Horvat-Gaunce, with McCann and Vey likely to have to play wings along with Virtanen, Jensen, Shinkaruk and Kassian. That's a pretty stacked top-9.

?

Edited by Canucks1219
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Just saw this post from DownUndaCanuck in the Cassels thread:

?

Like I said, McCann, Vey and Cassels will be good centers and right now they're all we have to replace Henrik and Bonino, but they're not going to be on par with what Nylander would have become if he was a Canuck.

I'm not going to say "watch this space" and track Nylander's progress with the Leafs because I feel the Canucks develop players far better, but William Nylander would have learned a lot from the Sedins and was born in Alberta so it's not like he wouldn't have understood the hockey market. Combining Nylander's sheer talent with the Sedins' tutelauge to become a consistent star in this league would have given us something special.

Instead we're going to have to make do with Vey/Cassels/McCann combo. They're good, but they're not as good as what we could have had for sure.

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Krejci - 2nd round pick

Bergeron - 2nd round pick

Why are you eliminating the possibility of Mccann being a 1st line center? We need tough, rugged centers to win nowadays. Nylander is good, but doesn't provide what we need right now. And you're right, Downunda, defense can be taught. Virtanen was the hardest shooter, best skater, and most physical player of his draft class. Once he rounds out his game, he'll be lethal. And don't forget, we weren't exactly drowning in center depth, and we still aren't

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Krejci - 2nd round pick

Bergeron - 2nd round pick

Why are you eliminating the possibility of Mccann being a 1st line center? We need tough, rugged centers to win nowadays. Nylander is good, but doesn't provide what we need right now. And you're right, Downunda, defense can be taught. Virtanen was the hardest shooter, best skater, and most physical player of his draft class. Once he rounds out his game, he'll be lethal. And don't forget, we weren't exactly drowning in center depth, and we still aren't

He is also a penalty killer so the coaches (both this year's and last year's) feel that he can be counted on while shorthanded. So he can be used on the powerplay, the penalty kill, and can play -- like his even strength goals last year suggest -- quite well at 5-on-5.

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  • -Vintage Canuck- changed the title to Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW
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  • b3. unlocked this topic

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