Winter Soldier Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Can people please stop feeding this guy. I come here for Virtanen updates and discussion not to see some guys pink boner for Nylander. However, it's something the LEAFS forum might be inclined to snuggle up to... Bottom line - this is a Virtanen thread and this is not a conversation about Virtanen any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice orca Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 The point I was making was that we don't need another first line winger, we need a first line center. Perry wouldn't be much good without Getzlaf and vice versa. We've got plenty of wingers to play on a future top line but as it stands right now, we don't have that center which is why I would take someone like Henrik Sedin or Backstrom. It's a bit naive comparing Edmonton to Boston, don't think I'm that blind. The NHL isn't as black and white as what you make it out to seem, you don't just have a "tough" team or a "skilled" team so let me explain that a bit more for you. In todays game, teams that are winning playoff rounds and Cups year in year out are the most BALANCED teams. Boston didn't win their cup in 2011 because they were the toughest team in the league, they won it because they had the perfect blend of skill, speed and toughness. Yes, they were tougher and stronger than the Canucks, but they would not have gotten to the Finals if they didn't have any offensive skill. Just take a look at the lineups of the Bruins, Blackhawks and Kings of the last few seasons. They're not stacked with big, strong powerforwards (or they'd be far too one-dimensional to be successful). Instead, they have players who are very versatile and can play all sorts of different types of games, but most importantly each line and each pairing is the perfect mix of skill and size. Are you telling me players like Justin Williams, Voynov, Krejci and Patrick Kane are tough guys? No, they're not. Then why do they have so much success and win Cups? Because they're on lines with stronger powerforwards who add a different element to their line. Williams is often with Brown, Krejci plays a lot with Lucic and Kane won a Cup with Bickell on his line. The point I'm making here is that no successful team is one-dimensional and just has a bunch of "tough" guys, or even a bunch of "versatile" players. They HAVE to have a bit of pure offensive skill dabbled throughout their lineup or they'd be far too easy to defend. Right now, our prospect pool is very easy to defend. Virtanen is similar to Jensen who plays a similar game to Kassian and Horvat. We could have desperately used a guy like Nylander who would have brought that element of pure skill into our future top-6. Drafting Nylander wouldn't have made our team "soft" at all, it would have added an extra element to our attack. The danger comes when you have too many soft, skilled guys on a team - THAT'S when you become the Oilers or Capitals. Having one or two pure offensive stars in the top-6 is the complete opposite. Yes, it's a fine line, but it's one that we're on the wrong side of at the moment. The Kings Ducks Sharks are filled with big heavy guys that are hard on the puck. Benning said you have to have size with skill to even compete in this division. Just look at the playoffs in the Western conference last year and the year prior it was brutal compared to the east. You need size and speed with a deadly shot and you get that in Virtanen, also with a bit of nasty. You also left out of your Canuck lineup MCcann who was rated as having the 4th highest iq amongst last years class. He also posseses speed grit and a wicked shot and good size, another pefect fit for the west. Virtanen+MCcann> Nylander. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) If you're going to do research, do it properly. When I said 90-100 points, I was referring to paces. Benn scored 82 in just 56 games. Getzlaf scored 75 in 49 games. Hossa scored 85 points in 53 games. Hartnell scored 82 points in 62 games. Lucic was the only anomaly who scored at a point per game pace but I definately wouldn't call him a star. Lucic is a 60 point, 20-30 goal scorer at best and was taken in the second round because that's his peak. I'd expect more from the 6th overall pick which is why it's stupid to compare Lucic (and even Hartnell) and Virtanen. There's a big difference between Virtanen scoring 70 points in 70 games and what those stars have done. Playing a full season this year, he needs to put up 90-100 points to match their point-per-games and become a star. Scoring at a point per game at the WHL is nothing special. Benn did it as a 19 year old Getzlaf did it as a 19 year old - only to regress and score 54 points in 51 games as a 20 year old Hartnell did it as a 18 year old and made the NHL right away Hossa did it as a 19 year old Virtanen only just turned 18. He has two years to put up big numbers. There were other WHLers I didn't include because they had their 90-100 point season as 20 year olds. Virtanen still has time, and even if he doesn't get there, he can be a star in this league because scoring 90-100 is not a pre-requisite. You end up looking like a fool by saying such a thing because all that is needed to prove a statement like that false is one exception. EDIT: Virt and Benn's age Edited November 8, 2014 by Dasein 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 COMMENT REMOVED, IN LINE WITH: Bottom line - this is a Virtanen thread and this is not a conversation about Virtanen any more. Why so much hostility? If the poster came in with something like "Virtanen sucks and should have drafted Nylander/Ehlers" I would have agreed with you but that is not what that poster seems to be doing. I dont know whats wrong with debating whether the right pick was made and comparing Virtanen with guys from the same draft class as him. None of us have any idea know for sure where these guys are going to be 3-4 years from now. If people would calm down and not think that everybody is out to troll, we could have discussions without people throwing a gasket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Benn did it as a 20 year old Getzlaf did it as a 19 year old - only to regress and score 54 points in 51 games as a 20 year old Hartnell did it as a 18 year old and made the NHL right away Hossa did it as a 19 year old Virtanen only just turned 19. He has two years to put up big numbers. There were other WHLers I didn't include because they had their 90-100 point season as 20 year olds. Virtanen still has time, and even if he doesn't get there, he can be a star in this league because scoring 90-100 is not a pre-requisite. You end up looking like a fool by saying such a thing because all that is needed to prove a statement like that false is one exception. Instead of using ages I think using the number of years in the league would be a better representation. I agree with you that putting up a ton of points is not all that is required to become a productive NHLer. A lot of guys put up a ton of points as older guys dominating 16-17 year olds. You have to watch the games to see whether the production will translate to pro success. Getzlaf is one of the primary exceptions though, its baffling that he put up 54 in 51. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireGillis Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Why so much hostility? If the poster came in with something like "Virtanen sucks and should have drafted Nylander/Ehlers" I would have agreed with you but that is not what that poster seems to be doing. I dont know whats wrong with debating whether the right pick was made and comparing Virtanen with guys from the same draft class as him. None of us have any idea know for sure where these guys are going to be 3-4 years from now. If people would calm down and not think that everybody is out to troll, we could have discussions without people throwing a gasket. I agree. That poster isn't trolling at all and is giving well thought out and reasoned points to back up his claim. I agree with a lot of what he says. I wanted nylander too and am praying virtanen isn't the next Taylor pyatt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canorth Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) Why so much hostility? If the poster came in with something like "Virtanen sucks and should have drafted Nylander/Ehlers" I would have agreed with you but that is not what that poster seems to be doing. I dont know whats wrong with debating whether the right pick was made and comparing Virtanen with guys from the same draft class as him. None of us have any idea know for sure where these guys are going to be 3-4 years from now. If people would calm down and not think that everybody is out to troll, we could have discussions without people throwing a gasket. Hostility? Ok...? It is a Virtanen thread in Canucks prospect forum. If he wants to make a "the grass is greener on the other side" thread, I say giver sh*t; however, he will probably be there all by him self. Hence, why he is dong it a thread that people frequent often. Which is annoying because every time he post something it is not related to the theme of the thread - which should be obvious by the title of it - I expect some sort of an update or discussion about the prospect that we did pick rather than nonsense about Bo Horvat as being a one dimensional player; calling Cassel's and McCaan over-agers; or suggesting Geztlaf and Perry would be useless in the league without each other. Edited November 8, 2014 by Canorth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) Hostility? Ok...? It is a Virtanen thread in Canucks prospect forum. If he wants to make a "the grass is greener on the other side" thread, I say giver sh*t; however, he will probably be there all by him self. Hence, why he is dong it a thread that people frequent often. Which is annoying because every time he post something it is not related to the theme of the thread - which should be obvious by the title of it - I expect some sort of an update or discussion about the prospect that we did pick rather than nonsense about Bo Horvat as being a one dimensional player; calling Cassel's and McCaan over-agers; or suggesting Geztlaf and Perry would be useless in the league without each other. I have read most of his posts, he seems to have some misconceptions but there is no reason to mock or flame anyone for that (not exactly directed at you). He seems just as big a Canucks fan as anyone in this thread. In either case his posts are not preventing others from posting updates about Virtanen. If he seems to annoy you so much there is a simpler and permanent solution to the problem. I guess I see nothing wrong with comparing a player with another picked in the same range or in the same draft class. Imo it seems like a reasonable thing to do and well within the range of topics that can be covered in this thread. Give it some time, I expect most people will forget about other players when Virtanen starts ripping it up. Edited November 8, 2014 by Toews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven pounds soft Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Hopefully Nylander actually makes the Leafs so we can watch Virtanen make dust from his bones. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cupless44 Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 A bit early to be trashing the Virtanen pick. Does Jim Benning look like he knows what he is doing as our GM so far? Yeah I thought so. Why don't we leave scouting and drafting future players to Benning who has extensive experience in this area. I don't see a problem adding a big tough skilled winger to a soft team that has to compete with the big teams in the west. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven pounds soft Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 I'm not saying that the current Andrew Ladd isn't a horrible player, but with the 6th overall pick we could and should have done better. Ladd was always a disappointment and I hope we don't have to wait 7 years of NHL toiling and developing before Virtanen becomes a consistent scorer, because he won't last those years with the Canucks. We'd be pretty lucky if Virtanen ended up a Tarasenko, the biggest difference there is that Tarasenko started playing hockey in the KHL with men when he was 15 or 16 years old, so has always been used to playing with men - hence his fast start in the NHL. Virtanen may have been a younger kid at the draft, but he's still playing with kids in the WHL and will probably need a year or two in the AHL before he makes the big league, so I doubt he'll explode onto the scene the way Tarasenko did. No doubt we may end up with one of the league's best right wingers in Virtanen (I can honestly see him become a Perry/Nash-like player if we're very lucky, or someone like Ladd/Lucic if we're lucky or Kassian if we're unlucky) but the Canucks NEED a center instead. If we had a choice between a future Corey Perry/Nash/Lucic or a future Filip Forsberg/Henrik Sedin/Nicklas Backstrom, I'd pick the latter every single time. Shinkaruk - Nylander - Kassian Vey - Horvat - Jensen ...is a far more well-rounded prospect pool than this: Virtanen - Horvat - Kassian Shinkaruk - Vey - Jensen Can we vote this guy off the island? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wexcar Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Benn did it as a 20 year old Getzlaf did it as a 19 year old - only to regress and score 54 points in 51 games as a 20 year old Hartnell did it as a 18 year old and made the NHL right away Hossa did it as a 19 year old Virtanen only just turned 19. He has two years to put up big numbers. There were other WHLers I didn't include because they had their 90-100 point season as 20 year olds. Virtanen still has time, and even if he doesn't get there, he can be a star in this league because scoring 90-100 is not a pre-requisite. You end up looking like a fool by saying such a thing because all that is needed to prove a statement like that false is one exception. Virtanen is only 18 eliteprospects.com. He only missed eligibility for 2015 draft by 1 month. BIRTHYEAR 1996-08-17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Virtanen is only 18 eliteprospects.com. He only missed eligibility for 2015 draft by 1 month. BIRTHYEAR 1996-08-17 Yeah thanks for catching that. I knew he was 18 I just hit 9 and didn't notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awalk Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 This guy is kind of flying under the radar a bit with all the talk about Horvat, Jensen, Shinkaruk, McCann, etc...the guys in the pros right now. But he's such a sick addition to the prospect pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73 Percent Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Can we vote this guy off the island?he's been sucking ass lately eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucksPatsFan Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 So ....... how's he doing? Thought that was what this thread was about. Did we draft Nylander too and I missed it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73 Percent Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 So ....... how's he doing? Thought that was what this thread was about. Did we draft Nylander too and I missed it?go back in your room and stare at your tom brady shrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Karlsson Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 I'm not saying that the current Andrew Ladd isn't a horrible player, but with the 6th overall pick we could and should have done better. Ladd was always a disappointment and I hope we don't have to wait 7 years of NHL toiling and developing before Virtanen becomes a consistent scorer, because he won't last those years with the Canucks. We'd be pretty lucky if Virtanen ended up a Tarasenko, the biggest difference there is that Tarasenko started playing hockey in the KHL with men when he was 15 or 16 years old, so has always been used to playing with men - hence his fast start in the NHL. Virtanen may have been a younger kid at the draft, but he's still playing with kids in the WHL and will probably need a year or two in the AHL before he makes the big league, so I doubt he'll explode onto the scene the way Tarasenko did. No doubt we may end up with one of the league's best right wingers in Virtanen (I can honestly see him become a Perry/Nash-like player if we're very lucky, or someone like Ladd/Lucic if we're lucky or Kassian if we're unlucky) but the Canucks NEED a center instead. If we had a choice between a future Corey Perry/Nash/Lucic or a future Filip Forsberg/Henrik Sedin/Nicklas Backstrom, I'd pick the latter every single time. Shinkaruk - Nylander - Kassian Vey - Horvat - Jensen ...is a far more well-rounded prospect pool than this: Virtanen - Horvat - Kassian Shinkaruk - Vey - Jensen Our prospect pool is pretty well rounded..... 2 way defense first players - Horvat, Gaunce Skill guys -Vey, Shinkaruk, Jensen, Subban, Hutton Skilled and gritty - Kassian, Virtanen, McCann, Cassels Don't really see the problem here... If we picked Nylander instead of Virtanen then our prospect pool would be pretty small for NHL standards, especially in the West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanTSN Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Did guy just say he's choose Filip Forsberg over Corey Perry every time? Lul. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Did guy just say he's choose Filip Forsberg over Corey Perry every time? Lul. Yes, yes he did. I come here for the laugh all the time. Lets hope we can move on from the kids argument and actually talk Virtanen. The pissing contest is pretty mute until we see either player actually play in the Big Leagues, so until then lets leave the "should have been could have beens" at the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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