Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[guntrix]

7 hours ago, canuckledraggin said:

So he's finished developing at age 20 then? If he's still a 3rd liner in another 3 years, when the rest of the older players have moved along, then maybe you can look at his draft position and get upset about the pick. Even then if he's on an effective 3rd line on a fast, hard checking and balanced team that rolls 4 lines and puts up points, then who really cares?

So your justification in the event that he turns out to be a third liner is that he'd hopefully be an active participant in a team that rolls 4 lines? And to think that we passed up on Ehlers and Nylander for this .

[canuckledraggin]

1 hour ago, guntrix said:

So your justification in the event that he turns out to be a third liner is that he'd hopefully be an active participant in a team that rolls 4 lines? And to think that we passed up on Ehlers and Nylander for this .

I don't need to justify the pick, because I like the player. Nylander and Ehlers are fine players, but I'd still pick Virtanen in a re-draft. We have Baertschi to fill the role of small playmaking forward, you can definitely have too many players of that type. My point is that Virtanen still has tons to learn about pro hockey, yet his critics are looking at him as though he will never develop beyond his current skill level.  

[Angry Goose]

I still think he is going to turn out a lot like Corey Perry as he matures and gets more experience.  His mix of speed, size and skill is too good.  He just has to keep learning how to be a pro.  It's not like the Sedins lit the league up in their early years

[higgyfan]

On 7/13/2016 at 5:26 PM, MJDDawg said:

Jake needs to calm his game down and simplify things. Too many times I've watched him go out of his way looking to initiate contact, taking himself out of the play instead reading the play, creating space for line-mates and going to the net.

 

He doesn't need to prove he can hit, everyone already knows that. He just has to be smarter about it.

 

 

Good points, MJD. 

 

Fortunately, these are the very things that will improve with experience.  The kid was pretty hyped up in his first season (which is understandable), but I think it was a real 'eye opener' for him.  I expect that he will be given every opportunity to develop into the kind of player he is projected to be.  He just needs lots of game time, good coaching and some patience from the fans.

[iinatcc]

1 hour ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

I still think he is going to turn out a lot like Corey Perry as he matures and gets more experience.  His mix of speed, size and skill is too good.  He just has to keep learning how to be a pro.  It's not like the Sedins lit the league up in their early years

Well the Sedins and Perry were like 0.5 PPG in those early years Virtanen has 13 pts in 55 games and it's not like he was impressive in the world juniors either.

 

That said he was called up earlier than those players so I'd give him one more season to pass judgment. If he can show improvement and contribute more offensively even if's not a big boost (maybe 30 pts in 82 games?) then promise will start showing.  

Edited July 15, 2016 by iinatcc

[Angry Goose]

4 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

Well the Sedins and Perry were like 0.5 PPG in those early years Virtanen has 13 pts in 55 games and it's not like he was impressive in the world juniors either.

 

That said he was called up earlier than those players so I'd give him one more season to pass judgment. If he can show improvement and contribute more offensively even if's not a big boost (maybe 30 pts in 82 games?) then promise will start showing.  

I wouldn't write him off because of a lacklustre WJC- look at what he showed when he returned.  

 

I don't doubt his talent at all, but he's still got a long ways to go.  It's like transitioning from amateur to professional boxing- these things take awhile because the competition is just so much more talented/hard to play against.  Baertschi is a good example of why people need to be patient- he still has a ways to go as well.  I know you are trying to be moderate, but I think people might be passing judgement too quickly even after this upcoming season.  30 points is attainable, but I'd be more focused on how he plays in the D and neutral zone.  His offense will come with adjusting to the league and more confidence.  

[iinatcc]

9 minutes ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

I wouldn't write him off because of a lacklustre WJC- look at what he showed when he returned.  

 

I don't doubt his talent at all, but he's still got a long ways to go.  It's like transitioning from amateur to professional boxing- these things take awhile because the competition is just so much more talented/hard to play against.  Baertschi is a good example of why people need to be patient- he still has a ways to go as well.  I know you are trying to be moderate, but I think people might be passing judgement too quickly even after this upcoming season.  30 points is attainable, but I'd be more focused on how he plays in the D and neutral zone.  His offense will come with adjusting to the league and more confidence.  

I hope so.

 

The other thing that worried me is during the 2014 draft the analysts said his biggest weakness is creativity which I assume means his hockey IQ. Now correct me if I am wrong but isn't hockey IQ that characteristic that allows great junior players to become good NHL players?

 

The other worry is if he was able to dominate the junior level because of his size but lacks the hockey IQ, it really reminds me of the reason why Cam Barker turned out to be bust. Of course that's a worst case scenario but I am sure there are other players that had similar strengths and deficiencies drafted early on but never lived up to their draft position. 

 

 

 

 

[Angry Goose]

Just now, iinatcc said:

I hope so.

 

The other thing that worried me is during the 2014 draft the analysts said his biggest weakness is creativity which I assume means his hockey IQ. Now correct me if I am wrong but isn't hockey IQ that characteristic that allows great junior players to become good NHL players?

 

The other worry is if he was able to dominate the junior level because of his size but lacks the hockey IQ, it really reminds me of the reason why Cam Barker turned out to be bust. Of course that's a worst case scenario but I am sure there are other players that had similar strengths and deficiencies drafted early on but never lived up to their draft position. 

 

 

 

 

I'm glad your brought up the IQ thing because I don't really get it after watching him this past season.  He likes to use his team mates and when you watch him without the puck, he is willing to go cycle low or make cuts to the middle of the ice/scoring areas. No he didn't put up a ton of assists but from what I saw he can definitely pass the puck, especially in tight.  

 

Again, all of this might be pre-mature because he really is only a kid playing against grown men who have already had time to grow in the league/acclimatize to it.  Good discussion though, I think I'll be watching Jake moreso this season with an eye towards his potential now.  IMO, the most difficult thing for Jake is consistent off ice habits.   So much pain and sacrifice like a no fun nutritional lifestyle can be a harder obstacle for some to overcome, especially for young kids who want to enjoy the simple pleasures in life.  makes you kind of feel bad for these young men in a way.

[N4ZZY]

1 hour ago, SILLY GOOSE said:

I'm glad your brought up the IQ thing because I don't really get it after watching him this past season.  He likes to use his team mates and when you watch him without the puck, he is willing to go cycle low or make cuts to the middle of the ice/scoring areas. No he didn't put up a ton of assists but from what I saw he can definitely pass the puck, especially in tight.  

 

Again, all of this might be pre-mature because he really is only a kid playing against grown men who have already had time to grow in the league/acclimatize to it.  Good discussion though, I think I'll be watching Jake moreso this season with an eye towards his potential now.  IMO, the most difficult thing for Jake is consistent off ice habits.   So much pain and sacrifice like a no fun nutritional lifestyle can be a harder obstacle for some to overcome, especially for young kids who want to enjoy the simple pleasures in life.  makes you kind of feel bad for these young men in a way.

Yeah. I'm keen on seeing his development this season as well. Keeping my eye on Jake to see how he progresses and how he continues to develop. Personally. If Willie is going to deploy him out on the fourth line, I'd rather just have Jake go down to the AHL and work with Green for a couple of months, or however long it takes for him to dominate the pro game at the AHL, and then call him up to the NHL. Intrigued about Virtanen, and also a little bit worried about him possibly regressing in his second season. 

 

[Bigturk8]

I have a question regarding expansion. If I missed it earlier in this thread or in another, I apologize.

Players with 2 or less years of professional hockey do not need to be protected. My question is, does Jake playing in the Utica playoff run just over a year ago take him to over 2 years at the end of this season? Since it was so brief, I would assume not, I'm just curious.

[cripplereh]

Jake is still young and that means he wants to play harder for his home town team.Yes he needs a bit more coaching and to just play his game and once he does that he will be more effective!

[Angry Goose]

1 hour ago, The 5th Line said:

 You just described the same qualities that every NHL player has.  He likes to use his team mates, willing to cycle low or make cuts to the middle?   His passes were 100mph and 2 feet off the ice most of the time.  He only recorded 26 assists in his draft year.  Sure he can make a pass in tight once in awhile but every NHL prospect should be able to do that...  His IQ is low.

The water in Cambell River must be drugged with something funny......

[bubbaCHUCK]

1 hour ago, The 5th Line said:

 You just described the same qualities that every NHL player has.  He likes to use his team mates, willing to cycle low or make cuts to the middle?   His passes were 100mph and 2 feet off the ice most of the time.  He only recorded 26 assists in his draft year.  Sure he can make a pass in tight once in awhile but every NHL prospect should be able to do that...  His IQ is low.

yeah virtanen definitely has a low hockey iq that's why i would put him on the 3rd line and be the type of player that grinds down low for the puck. something like toews did for team canada 2010 or like my earlier post, be a raffi torres for the canucks. it will help him with his development in the nhl and give him a decent job. IMO i think he's the fastest canuck on the team, so he can still get scoring chances if the coaches throw him out for a offensive draw or PP time.

 

i can see why ppl might call him a bust for being such a high pick and picking other players we should of draft, but...... this is the vancouver canucks. i havent had high expectations for anybody the canucks have drafted like the last 15 years because i always get disappoint eventually. instead i just keep a open mind about them and see how they turn out. no bust or what if's. just another canucks draft.

but since we got benning, i never been more excited about the prospects again. i still think virtanen will be a unique hockey player that will separate him from the others. still don't know exactly what, but he has things in his game that most players would be jealous of. might not turnout to be a 40 goal scorer but he will definitely make a impact on the games in the future.

[Rex425]

Lol people already calling him a 3rd liner in the future when he was arguably 3rd line material last year. Top advanced stats on the team, while having a great physical presence. 

[guntrix]

8 hours ago, canuckledraggin said:

I don't need to justify the pick, because I like the player. Nylander and Ehlers are fine players, but I'd still pick Virtanen in a re-draft. We have Baertschi to fill the role of small playmaking forward, you can definitely have too many players of that type. My point is that Virtanen still has tons to learn about pro hockey, yet his critics are looking at him as though he will never develop beyond his current skill level.  

Again with putting words in people's mouths. No one said he wasn't going to improve beyond his current level.

 

You can only improve so much though. Saying that he's gonna be the next Corey Perry (like a poster on here just said) is wishful thinking at best. 

 

People constantly like to use the Sedins as examples for why not being productive in the earlier years can be dismissed. What they had going for them was clear hockey IQ, despite getting pushed around quite a bit. JV is the opposite. Dude has all the physical tools but has the hockey IQ of a timbit hockey player. He may gain a few smarts but I doubt he'l improve tenfold in that regard. 

[Westcoasting]

7 hours ago, The 5th Line said:

Okay then all of the scouts who said the same thing must be on drugs as well?  

 

And for the record, Campbell River has some of the best drinking water in B.C  

Especially with that iron ore mine at the headwaters... mmm good stuff!

[canuckledraggin]

10 hours ago, guntrix said:

Again with putting words in people's mouths. No one said he wasn't going to improve beyond his current level.

 

You can only improve so much though. Saying that he's gonna be the next Corey Perry (like a poster on here just said) is wishful thinking at best. 

 

People constantly like to use the Sedins as examples for why not being productive in the earlier years can be dismissed. What they had going for them was clear hockey IQ, despite getting pushed around quite a bit. JV is the opposite. Dude has all the physical tools but has the hockey IQ of a timbit hockey player. He may gain a few smarts but I doubt he'l improve tenfold in that regard. 

 So you're saying he's going to improve to pee-wee level then? I'm going to stop responding to you and the 5th line and the other of Jake's over the top critics, before this thread devolves into another 700 pages of bashing and defending a still 19 year old kid.

[Alflives]

47 minutes ago, canuckledraggin said:

 So you're saying he's going to improve to pee-wee level then? I'm going to stop responding to you and the 5th line and the other of Jake's over the top critics, before this thread devolves into another 700 pages of bashing and defending a still 19 year old kid.

A 19 year old kid who dominated almost every game for a 20 game stretch after his return from the WJC's too.  I firmly believe we will see JV dominate more and more, for longer stretches this coming season.  

[Toews]

20 minutes ago, Alflives said:

A 19 year old kid who dominated almost every game for a 20 game stretch after his return from the WJC's too.  I firmly believe we will see JV dominate more and more, for longer stretches this coming season.  

You and I have different definitions of the word dominate. 

[J-Dizzle]

21 hours ago, iinatcc said:

Well the Sedins and Perry were like 0.5 PPG in those early years Virtanen has 13 pts in 55 games and it's not like he was impressive in the world juniors either.

 

 

The Sedins were also spoon fed offensive zone starts and power play time. 

 

On a completely different note (and not pertaining to the above quoted) the negativity some people insist on directing Jakes way is almost unbelievable.  If he sucks in two or three years fine go for it, but for the love of donuts give him some time before  you throw him under the bus.