cuporbust Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 6 points in 17 games ? Ouch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicky Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 I'm still not getting the difference between a "small" PWF and a "large" PWF. Either you drive to the net and generally make a nuisance of yourself in the paint successfully - or you don't. What is the difference between Tkachuk doing it or Getzlaf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73 Percent Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 23 minutes ago, Vicky said: I'm still not getting the difference between a "small" PWF and a "large" PWF. Either you drive to the net and generally make a nuisance of yourself in the paint successfully - or you don't. What is the difference between Tkachuk doing it or Getzlaf? Most defensman can physically prevent Tkachuk from doing so while only a few can stop Getzlaf from getting to the net if that's where he wants to go. What's so hard to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ihatetomatoes Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 2 hours ago, J.R. said: That's all in trying to say. A lot of PWF'S take more time to develop. Not all of them. I never claimed it's a hard and fast rule with every single, large PWF. And it of course varies depending on the individual player their situation, team, etc. Virtanen, for example, hasn't got a lot of other top 6 quality team mates in Utica... yet. Another reason I hope he's there for at least part of next year as well. Hopefully Zuhkenov, Jasek etc (come on Hischier!) help that next year. Even many of your better examples who were 'decent' players in their early 20's made an obvious leap once they hit 22/23'ish (some even later). It's not an 'excuse', it's simply a common trend, even with the cream is the crop, that they simply take longer to fully adapt their game and bodies to the NHL level. Agreed with giving him time. But a lot of small forwards take more time to develop as well. There is no difference based on size it's purely player to player. Hopefully Jake is one of those guys that just takes a long time but it has nothing to do with his size. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicky Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 I guess what I was getting at is that you are a PWF or you aren't - and you are successful at it or you aren't. Why split hairs between small and large if a player's style is that of a PWF? Or that because you are 2 inches taller and 12-15 pounds heavier somehow this will increase your development time by 3-4 years. At any rate, not worth derailing the thread even more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Phat Fingers Posted December 29, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2016 Where this all stems from is an unreal instant gratification complex that exists on the CDC. Jake is only two years past his draft year, just really getting adjusted to the AHL. But other players have gotten more points in the NHL. Yada yada yada. Does that mean Jake or insert prospects name here. Say Ollie, can never improve if they don't follow a specific tragectory. This isn't rocket science where we can calculate gravitational pull etc etc etc. This is personal development, it's inconsistent, wildly unpredictable and hard to replicate from individual to individual. It's also not done in a steady medium, instead each individual has different coaching, support, players and usage to influence the outcome, especially in the formative years. Jake cannot be properly assessed yet. Draft year plus 5 is when a consensus/verdict can be made in the negative. Positive results are easier to draw conclusions from, as is always the case, proving a negative takes a lot more time. Jake has been in the AHL for a handful of games and due to injury he missed the AHL training camp. For Chirstsakes he is young enough to be still playing in the CHL as an overager NVD people are ready to give up on him. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedinyoureyesontheprize Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 Assist for jake tonight vs the ice packs. Driving hard to the net & gets a shot on goal https://mobile.twitter.com/UticaComets/status/814283947110764544/video/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N4ZZY Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Setyoureyesontheprize said: Assist for jake tonight vs the ice packs. Driving hard to the net & gets a shot on goal https://mobile.twitter.com/UticaComets/status/814283947110764544/video/1 hope jake's play continues the right way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messier's_elbow Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 13 hours ago, cuporbust said: 6 points in 17 games ? Ouch Not great numbers but he got off to a slow start. When Horvat had a conditioning stint in the A he didn't score much either. This kid is the type where one day the light bulb will just turn on. Like Sid said he has all the talent. He just needs to put it all together and that comes with maturity and proper development. Green looks like he's doing a good job with him so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrible.dee Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 (edited) On 12/19/2016 at 10:17 PM, CanucksJay said: Great read. Glad he's down there and giving it his all and learning under Green You guys just believe everything you see in print huh? And in regards to detailed analysis of Jakes diaper rash... WD is the coach of the Vancouver Canucks, not JV's personal autobiographer, why the hell should he spend all his media time picking apart the game of a guy who wasn't even playing like he gave a $&!#. You guys need to be a little more critical when it comes to the media, i have noticed an alarming number of CDC's buying every spin that is put out there even when they are obviously trying to snow you. Don't be idiots people Edited December 31, 2016 by -Vintage Canuck- Please don't bypass word censors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesB Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 On 12/27/2016 at 3:40 PM, J.R. said: I'm hoping he can be a 40+ point guy who can bring an intimidating speed/physicality game on top of being a complimentary scorer, likely on the 2nd line, in his prime. Any more than that is gravy IMO. On 12/27/2016 at 4:21 PM, EternalCanuckFan said: This is what I saw him as from the start. If he can get to that level, I think we can call him a success. Not what one hopes for from a top 6 pick, but those are impact players in one way or another. Hopefully Boeser will be the major point producer. Virtanen can still improve beyond this but I wouldn't be too disappointed. Agree that more than this would be gravy. Given where he is now, if Virtanen can hit this level in a couple of years (draft + 5 year maybe) and hold that peak for 5 or 6 years, that would be success and we would have to be happy. I still think that being a fast, tough 3rd liner scoring maybe 30 points per season is more likely. But even that is not a lock. I agree about Boeser. Like Horvat he seems very mature and very focused already. (And he is a smart player with a high hockey IQ.) 15 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said: Yeah, I don't necessarily feel that Virtanen requires development time because if the type of player he is (power forward). Seems more a case of the type of individual he is (and also to some extent his injury history and development setbacks). A lot of it seems to be Virtanen's personal physical and mental development. His fitness and conditioning has been a work in progress but I have little doubt he can get there eventually. With the right training program, good icetime, and a healthy commitment from the player himself, Virtanen should be able to get his body where it needs to be. On the mental side, it's all about maturity, dedication, confidence, and consistency. Again, I believe he will get there. He's a good kid and he has a lot of positive personality traits. But he's not a Horvat type (who seemed like a 30-year-old veteran at age 19). Jake's just much more of a "kid" mentally (and all that implies). So a year (or even two) in Utica should go a long way towards him finding his "man's game" and becoming a true professional on and off the ice. ... Another good post from Sid. So let's agree to bury the "power forwards take longer" excuse. Sid hits the nail on the head. The issue with Virtanen is not body type, it is the mental game. The point I would make about the mental game is that it is not necessarily easy to make "corrections". We sometimes think the mental game should be easier to improve than the physical game. After all, you can't teach a guy to be big. But I think the mental game is every bit as hard to improve as the physical game. For a lot of guys the mental game is their separating skill, and it is not easy to imitate. After all, the physical gifts of guys like the Sedins are not that impressive. But they have had great careers because of the mental game. Other guys would copy it if they could. Maybe Virtanen will come around, but I don't think the transition will be easy. Normal maturing with age will help a bit but what you need is the unwavering determination that you see from guys like Horvat and Stecher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73 Percent Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 4 hours ago, N4ZZY said: hope jake's play continues the right way. 100% I don't think it was ever a skill levelevel with jake. Just compete level and consistency. Coaching could play a factor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B Cooper Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 3 hours ago, terrible.dee said: You guys just believe everything you see in print huh? And in regards to detailed analysis of Jakes diaper rash... WD is the coach of the Vancouver Canucks, not JV's personal autobiographer, why the hell should he spend all his media time picking apart the game of a guy who wasn't even playing like he gave a sh$t. You guys need to be a little more critical when it comes to the media, i have noticed an alarming number of CDC's buying every spin that is put out there even when they are obviously trying to snow you. Don't be idiots people Of course never trust the media. What the hell is your point D? your negativity is getting out of control these days. Please post less, or take a couple more of the blue pills. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 5 hours ago, JamesB said: Agree that more than this would be gravy. Given where he is now, if Virtanen can hit this level in a couple of years (draft + 5 year maybe) and hold that peak for 5 or 6 years, that would be success and we would have to be happy. I still think that being a fast, tough 3rd liner scoring maybe 30 points per season is more likely. But even that is not a lock. I agree about Boeser. Like Horvat he seems very mature and very focused already. (And he is a smart player with a high hockey IQ.) Another good post from Sid. So let's agree to bury the "power forwards take longer" excuse. Sid hits the nail on the head. The issue with Virtanen is not body type, it is the mental game. The point I would make about the mental game is that it is not necessarily easy to make "corrections". We sometimes think the mental game should be easier to improve than the physical game. After all, you can't teach a guy to be big. But I think the mental game is every bit as hard to improve as the physical game. For a lot of guys the mental game is their separating skill, and it is not easy to imitate. After all, the physical gifts of guys like the Sedins are not that impressive. But they have had great careers because of the mental game. Other guys would copy it if they could. Maybe Virtanen will come around, but I don't think the transition will be easy. Normal maturing with age will help a bit but what you need is the unwavering determination that you see from guys like Horvat and Stecher. IMO getting him to Utica where he is away from the critical Van media and fans will let the kid reground himself. I suspect his biggest challenge is his mental approach to the game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 6 hours ago, JamesB said: The issue with Virtanen is not body type, it is the mental game. The two are not disconnected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohmy Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 2 hours ago, Boudrias said: IMO getting him to Utica where he is away from the critical Van media and fans will let the kid reground himself. I suspect his biggest challenge is his mental approach to the game. I think you are exactly right and having a coach like Green who's been there done that is gonna help him a lot. I hope they keep him there for most if not all of the season. Virtanen situation reminds me a lot of Niederreiter from the Wild. Similar draft year numbers, rushed into the NHL, and couldn't figure out how to utilize the tools he had. He spent a year in the AHL and came back the next year a different player. I believe the same will be the case with Virtanen. If he becomes a bigger version of Nino then I would take that over Nylander, Ehlers, or Larkin all day long. Those players can be found in a draft every year. The player that Virtanen could become can't really. I think another year is in order before we can make a fair judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckledraggin Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 6 hours ago, Gooseberries said: 100% I don't think it was ever a skill levelevel with jake. Just compete level and consistency. Coaching could play a factor. I think coaching is the #1 factor with Jake. Green seems to have already been able to spot the flaws and holes in his game and he has been able to transform his play in a relatively short period of time. It's a difficult thing for Willie D to do without dedicating an unusual amount of time into just coaching Jake. The differences in Jake's game now are: footspeed, positioning and puckhandling and likely conditioning. All of those things are a function of coaching to an extent, because Green plays a different style than the trap game that Willie likes. Green's style is overload and puck pursuit so that a players feet are always moving and it works well with all of the lunchbucket type players that he has in Utica. His puckhandling is the one biggest change that I see though. He is skating with the puck and using his speed for zone entries to back off defenses. I'd like to see him work on his playmaking, because he does throw nice passes, but he's content to use his shot most of the time. He's developing nicely at the AHL level. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73 Percent Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 29 minutes ago, canuckledraggin said: I think coaching is the #1 factor with Jake. Green seems to have already been able to spot the flaws and holes in his game and he has been able to transform his play in a relatively short period of time. It's a difficult thing for Willie D to do without dedicating an unusual amount of time into just coaching Jake. The differences in Jake's game now are: footspeed, positioning and puckhandling and likely conditioning. All of those things are a function of coaching to an extent, because Green plays a different style than the trap game that Willie likes. Green's style is overload and puck pursuit so that a players feet are always moving and it works well with all of the lunchbucket type players that he has in Utica. His puckhandling is the one biggest change that I see though. He is skating with the puck and using his speed for zone entries to back off defenses. I'd like to see him work on his playmaking, because he does throw nice passes, but he's content to use his shot most of the time. He's developing nicely at the AHL level. To be honest I've only watched clips of his play and read about it since he's been in Utica. However I have a hard time believing that he developed these skills in a month. I think it has more to do with coaching. Not that WD is a bad coach. Like you said he is a better coach for virtanens style. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 7 minutes ago, Gooseberries said: To be honest I've only watched clips of his play and read about it since he's been in Utica. However I have a hard time believing that he developed these skills in a month. I think it has more to do with coaching. Not that WD is a bad coach. Like you said he is a better coach for virtanens style. I've watched most of the Utica games since Jake went down, and there has been marked improvement in his puck possession. He carries the puck, showing really good hands while at speed. I didn't realize he had that kind of skill. Maybe freedom to make a mistake has relaxed him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancan2233 Posted December 29, 2016 Share Posted December 29, 2016 14 minutes ago, Alflives said: I've watched most of the Utica games since Jake went down, and there has been marked improvement in his puck possession. He carries the puck, showing really good hands while at speed. I didn't realize he had that kind of skill. Maybe freedom to make a mistake has relaxed him? You showed the same skill with Van when he had the puck, he just did not get the puck enough for people to notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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