Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[canucklehead44]

5 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Maybe it's time to just face the facts that this team has horrible player development, has for years.

 

It's not a coincidence that as soon as they get their hands on these young promising prospects they start to fade.

I'd say development might even be more important than drafting.

 

[Odd.]

1 hour ago, DeNiro said:

 

Lol, I just realized that.

 

Man that team should just trade those picks when they get them. They really haven't worked out for them.

All of their top 5 picks (i've also included 6th overall picks in their because they've had a handful of them). Keep in mind I'm only talking about their high selections. They've got some good players in the later rounds.

 

2014: Micheal Dal Colle (5th overall). Has yet to play an NHL game.

2012: Griffen Reinhart (5th overall). 23 years, hasn't played a full NHL season and has struggled in the A.

2011: Ryan Strome (5th overall). Huge consistency issues, and has regressed.

2010: Nino Neiderreiter (5th overall). Has progressed well after being traded. (x1)

2009: Tavares (1st overall). Successful.

2000: Rick Dipietro (1st overall). Busted.

2000: Raffi Torres (5th overall). Busted.

1999: Tim Connolly (5th overall). Busted.

1997: Roberto Luongo (4th overall). Had success after being traded. (x2).

1996: JP Dumont (3rd overall). Progressed satisfactorily after being traded. (x3)

1995: Wade Redden (5th overall). Didn't even play a single game. Successful pick, but not for them. (x4).

1992: Darius Kasparatius: (2nd overall). Busted.

1991: Scott Lachance: (2nd overall). Busted.

1990: Scott Scissons: (6th overall). Busted.

1989: Dave Chyzowski: (2nd overall). Busted.

1985: Brad Dalgarno: (6th overall). Had a short career and wasn't all that impressive.

1983: Pat Lafontaine: (3rd overall). Succesful.

 

If you go beyond however they've manged to draft Dennis Potvin and Billy Harris with their 1st overall pick. And Clark Gillies with their 4th overall pick. All played a crucial role in their dynasty days.

 

To summarize:

They've had 4 of their 17 top 6 picks traded and have then found some sort of success.

They've had another 4 of their 17 top 6 picks traded but have not found any success.

All 7 of their 5th overall picks have not made a profound impact other than Strome who's regressed mightily for the last 2 seasons.

In the last 10 years started from 2005, the only successful top 10 picks in their franchise have been Tavares and Okposo with the rest being undetermined or have busted.

Out of the 3 2nd overall picks they've selected in their history, all 3 of them have busted.

 

 

 

This is absolutely disgraceful.

 

edit: i've left out other info too but still this is mind boggling. And people say we're bad at drafting/player development...

Edited January 9, 2017 by Odd.

[SuitnTie]

When do we start hitting the panic button? Jake with 1 assisst in last 10 games..

[funkyfresh]

3 minutes ago, SuitnTie said:

When do we start hitting the panic button? Jake with 1 assisst in last 10 games..

 

Go ahead, Press it.

[shazzam]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Ehlers, Pasternak, and Tkatchuk (and Boeser next season) would sure make our forwards a lot younger, a lot more exciting, and a lot better.  JB has stalled his retool/rebuild because he missed the better player on three out of his four first rounders.  

 

Some players are able to make the jump to the NHL quicker, it doesn't automatically make them the better pick. It will take years to see which player will make have the better career and contribute more to teeir organization. It's so easy to look back and say oh we should have drafted so and so. How does drafting Juolevi stall the rebuild? We desperately need D prospects and he is one of the top ranked of his draft class.

[Silky mitts]

44 minutes ago, SuitnTie said:

When do we start hitting the panic button? Jake with 1 assisst in last 10 games..

Terrible absolutely terrible play

[Sedintwinpowersactivate]

What ice time is Jake getting in Utica?  Has his struggles forced Green to drop him down the lineup?  I'm pretty disappointed in his numbers.  Could somebody watching the comets give an update on his play? 

[guntrix]

1 hour ago, shazzam said:

 

Some players are able to make the jump to the NHL quicker, it doesn't automatically make them the better pick. It will take years to see which player will make have the better career and contribute more to teeir organization. It's so easy to look back and say oh we should have drafted so and so. How does drafting Juolevi stall the rebuild? We desperately need D prospects and he is one of the top ranked of his draft class.

I'd argue that acquiring Stecher softened our need for defensive prospects, especially considering our lack of offensive prospects with NHL upside. Don't get me wrong, we still need D prospects but I think our need for F prospects is more pressing. 

 

I was clamouring for the org to stay away from Tkachuk so I can't act hypocritical and say that we should've picked him. I liked Jost though and still think he would've been a nice addition. 

[stonecoldstevebernier]

52 minutes ago, Sedintwinpowersactivate said:

What ice time is Jake getting in Utica?  Has his struggles forced Green to drop him down the lineup?  I'm pretty disappointed in his numbers.  Could somebody watching the comets give an update on his play? 

He's been playing most regularly on the third line, and on the second unit powerplay. Usually he's with Wacey Hamilton and Carter Bancks, which is where he was today as well. He had two scoring chances but neither one resulted in a shot on net. The first he was darting down the right side with quite a bit of room and completely whiffed on the shot. The second chance was exactly where you'd want him to be, parked in the slot for a one-timer, which he got off but had it blocked.

He doesn't look bad in the sense that he's not making dumb plays or costly giveaways. He looks bad because we expect so much out of him. A lot of the time when he's on the ice, he just looks uninvolved in the play, kind of floating around the offensive zone while others do the dirty work to dig the puck out of the corners. His speed and shot are both still very apparent skills but he rarely gets a chance to use them when he's waiting for the game to come to him.

 

When I watch Virtanen, he reminds me of Ronalds Kenins last year. When Kenins first played with the Canucks he was hitting absolutely everything, and always finished his checks no matter what. In his second year he looked like a completely different player. In the few games he played, there were a lot of moments where he'd be forechecking and have an opportunity to hit someone but he'd just peel away at the last second. That's what Virtanen looks like right now. He's not using his size or his physicality to his advantage but what this means, I don't know. Could be a lingering injury; could be a mental thing where he feels a need to play a certain way to succeed; could be disinterest; or it could be that he's being coached to play a certain system. I'm not a coach, or a scout, but I think if Virtanen's struggling to hit the score sheet (which he is) he needs to start doing things like playing aggressively and doing the dirty work in the corners to try to make something happen instead of waiting for something to happen.

 

That said, I wouldn't worry too much about him just yet, or press a panic button. A lot of times players will get on slumps and nothing goes right for them and it takes a while to break out of it because the longer it goes on, the worse it feels. Just look at Eriksson's start to the year. Virtanen is far younger and has a lot to learn, and time to learn it.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Sedintwinpowersactivate said:

What ice time is Jake getting in Utica?  Has his struggles forced Green to drop him down the lineup?  I'm pretty disappointed in his numbers.  Could somebody watching the comets give an update on his play? 

 

The entire team is struggling. What little AHL top 6 talent they have, has largely been pilfered by us. 

 

Virtanen actually had a stretch shortly after he was sent down where he had 7 points in 6 games or something but otherwise like the rest of the team has struggled. 

 

I also very much believe that they're presently in the 'break him down to build him back up' phase. Green has him working on basics, learning to keep his feet moving, push the pace and attack rather than coasting and the associated work in the gym, practice, video etc to do that. 

 

The panic in here is ridiculous and silly IMO. 

[Miles Mayhem]

3 hours ago, MJDDawg said:

 

UTICA COMETS 2016-17 INDIVIDUAL STATS
#	PLAYER	POS	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	PP	SHG	SOG	SH%
28	Alexandre Grenier	RW	32	10	16	26	-6	38	5	0	74	13.5
38	Curtis Valk	C	32	12	10	22	-3	22	0	0	80	15.0
25	Darren Archibald	LW	33	9	12	21	3	16	0	1	71	12.7
7	Jordan Subban	D	30	8	12	20	-7	8	6	0	77	10.4
48	Colby Robak (total)	D	30	2	16	18	5	36	2	0	54	3.7
	STK	D	6	0	5	5	8	6	0	0	5	0.0
	UTI	D	24	2	11	13	-3	30	2	0	49	4.1
26	Michael Chaput (X)	C	10	2	11	13	-1	10	1	1	18	11.1
20	Cody Kunyk	C	21	2	9	11	-6	6	1	0	26	7.7
34	Carter Bancks	LW	29	5	5	10	-8	17	4	0	35	14.3
22	Pascal Pelletier	C	17	3	5	8	-9	8	2	0	30	10.0
16	Joseph LaBate	LW	19	2	6	8	-7	46	1	0	35	5.7
5	David Shields	D	26	0	8	8	-4	4	0	0	23	0.0
18	Jake Virtanen	RW	23	4	3	7	-4	20	3	0	42	9.5
41	Chad Billins	D	30	1	6	7	-4	6	1	0	46	2.2
36	Wacey Hamilton	C	27	4	2	6	-3	44	0	0	28	14.3
24	Derek Hulak	LW	17	4	1	5	2	4	0	0	16	25.0
8	John Negrin	D	20	0	5	5	-2	12	0	0	18	0.0
19	Cole Cassels	RW	26	4	0	4	-2	18	0	1	28	14.3
71	Borna Rendulic	RW	31	2	2	4	-2	10	0	0	29	6.9
11	Marco Roy	C	12	1	3	4	3	4	0	0	17	5.9
37	Andrey Pedan	D	21	2	1	3	2	32	0	0	38	5.3
23	Jayson Megna (X)	RW	4	1	2	3	-1	0	0	0	3	33.3
58	Michael Carcone	LW	26	1	2	3	-5	25	1	0	36	2.8
4	Evan McEneny	D	23	1	1	2	-10	10	1	0	42	2.4
14	Mike Zalewski	C	14	0	2	2	-2	10	0	0	22	0.0
21	Phil DeSimone (X)	C	8	1	0	1	-1	2	0	0	15	6.7
17	Anton Rodin (X)	F	3	0	1	1	-1	0	0	0	3	0.0
2	Troy Stecher (X)	D	4	0	1	1	0	4	0	0	8	0.0
9	Yan-Pavel Laplante	LW	13	0	1	1	-8	9	0	0	7	0.0
6	Ashton Sautner	D	13	0	1	1	-7	12	0	0	5	0.0
3	Alex Biega (X)	D	1	0	0	0	-2	2	0	0	0	0.0
17	Luke Pither (X)	C	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0.0
43	Tom Nilsson	D	7	0	0	0	-2	4	0	0	5	0.0
	BENCH		33	0				10			0
	TOTALS		33	81	140	221	-100	445	28	3	927	8.7

 

Thanks, although the stats don't always answer the question. Pretty low shooting %

[Sedintwinpowersactivate]

20 minutes ago, stonecoldstevebernier said:

He's been playing most regularly on the third line, and on the second unit powerplay. Usually he's with Wacey Hamilton and Carter Bancks, which is where he was today as well. He had two scoring chances but neither one resulted in a shot on net. The first he was darting down the right side with quite a bit of room and completely whiffed on the shot. The second chance was exactly where you'd want him to be, parked in the slot for a one-timer, which he got off but had it blocked.

He doesn't look bad in the sense that he's not making dumb plays or costly giveaways. He looks bad because we expect so much out of him. A lot of the time when he's on the ice, he just looks uninvolved in the play, kind of floating around the offensive zone while others do the dirty work to dig the puck out of the corners. His speed and shot are both still very apparent skills but he rarely gets a chance to use them when he's waiting for the game to come to him.

 

When I watch Virtanen, he reminds me of Ronalds Kenins last year. When Kenins first played with the Canucks he was hitting absolutely everything, and always finished his checks no matter what. In his second year he looked like a completely different player. In the few games he played, there were a lot of moments where he'd be forechecking and have an opportunity to hit someone but he'd just peel away at the last second. That's what Virtanen looks like right now. He's not using his size or his physicality to his advantage but what this means, I don't know. Could be a lingering injury; could be a mental thing where he feels a need to play a certain way to succeed; could be disinterest; or it could be that he's being coached to play a certain system. I'm not a coach, or a scout, but I think if Virtanen's struggling to hit the score sheet (which he is) he needs to start doing things like playing aggressively and doing the dirty work in the corners to try to make something happen instead of waiting for something to happen.

 

That said, I wouldn't worry too much about him just yet, or press a panic button. A lot of times players will get on slumps and nothing goes right for them and it takes a while to break out of it because the longer it goes on, the worse it feels. Just look at Eriksson's start to the year. Virtanen is far younger and has a lot to learn, and time to learn it.

 

13 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

The entire team is struggling. What little AHL top 6 talent they have, has largely been pilfered by us. 

 

Virtanen actually had a stretch shortly after he was sent down where he had 7 points in 6 games or something but otherwise like the rest of the team has struggled. 

 

I also very much believe that they're presently in the 'break him down to build him back up' phase. Green has him working on basics, learning to keep his feet moving, push the pace and attack rather than coasting and the associated work in the gym, practice, video etc to do that. 

 

The panic in here is ridiculous and silly IMO. 

 

Thanks guys for the thoughtful posts.  I'm not panicking.  Virtanen is so young still.  I do hope that things start to click with him soon.  Utica is a great place to reduce the outside noise of playing in his home town and being a top pick in his draft.  It's up to him to work hard and listen to his coaches.  His skating and shot are NHL level.  Is his work ethic NHL level?  We shall see.

 

[Tystick]

6 hours ago, Zhukini said:

Really? If anything this season has shown most of his skills aren't AHL ready, not NHL

I see what you're saying but that's not true, his skills are NHL ready.

We've witnessed him play in the NHL and he has the shot, the acceleration, the balance, the elite body checking, etc.

You would think with all that skill and power he would be lighting up the league.

But he's not there yet, and the only logical thing to take away from our limited viewpoint is he's working on his weaknesses right now.

And IMO, that's the best thing he could be doing for himself down there.

 

Edit: Like I said before his drive is weak and his timing is off as a result of that. 

In other words he's lazy and whiny. Green will take care of it.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Tystick
Extra

[b3.]

I've given up all hope and expectations for Jake this year. I've only watched 3-4 Utica games this year, and he has looked as disinterested as one could be on the ice.

 

I don't know if it has been due to coaching or management. But I'm stuck wondering what happened to the JV that was physical and involved early last season.

[KKnight]

He's a frustrating player to watch. He's supposed to be this intimidating player, size,speed, timely physical play and he just chooses not to use it. Rather do these random shots from awkward angles, instead of battling hard to create better scoring opportunities for himself. 

[aGENT]

26 minutes ago, Tystick said:

I see what you're saying but that's not true, his skills are NHL ready.

We've witnessed him play in the NHL and he has the shot, the acceleration, the balance, the elite body checking, etc.

You would think with all that skill and power he would be lighting up the league.

But he's not there yet, and the only logical thing to take away from our limited viewpoint is he's working on his weaknesses right now.

And IMO, that's the best thing he could be doing for himself down there.

 

Edit: Like I said before his drive is weak and his timing is off as a result of that. 

In other words he's lazy and whiny. Green will take care of it.

 

This. 

 

15 minutes ago, b3. said:

I've given up all hope and expectations for Jake this year. I've only watched 3-4 Utica games this year, and he has looked as disinterested as one could be on the ice.

 

I don't know if it has been due to coaching or management. But I'm stuck wondering what happened to the JV that was physical and involved early last season.

 

Some of it, I think, is simply a lack of confidence. 

 

He struggled at the NHL level because he wasn't NHL ready. On top of the all to common with kids coming out of junior 'coasting' issue. 

 

So he hasn't yet learned to constantly push, hence wasn't able to perform at a level he (or coaches/management) expected and it affected his confidence making it worse.

 

Not just that he's 'lazy and whiny' 

 

Though I do think he has a touch of entitlement/ego that coaching is having to work around as well. 

 

Either he'll learn to listen to them and that he needs to work a lot harder on and off the ice and becomes the player he can be, or he doesn't. It's far too early to conclude he's a lost cause though. 

 

 

[IBacon Strips]

At this point, would anyone hesitate to include him in a big package to get someone like Landeskog? Even if he still has big upside down the road, I'm of the belief that his most value to us will be in the form of being a trade chip. 

[Butters Stoch]

I'm not even mad at Jake. He just doesn't have the hockey sense, whether the work ethic is there or not, he can't do anything about that. But I don't think I can forgive JB for overlooking how much more important skill/talent is for our rebuilding team and chasing that his old big bad Bruins model when the league is progressing to a speed and skill game. Getting some prospects with raw talent should've been his first priority, get those guys in place first then add the support guys with size and toughness later on.

 

We're still a couple good prospects away from becoming a team on the rise and with this botched pick, we're set back by another year of sucking and picking high just to get a good prospect to make up for missing out on one in 2014.

[aGENT]

5 hours ago, Butters Stoch said:

I'm not even mad at Jake. He just doesn't have the hockey sense, whether the work ethic is there or not, he can't do anything about that. But I don't think I can forgive JB for overlooking how much more important skill/talent is for our rebuilding team and chasing that his old big bad Bruins model when the league is progressing to a speed and skill game. Getting some prospects with raw talent should've been his first priority, get those guys in place first then add the support guys with size and toughness later on.

 

We're still a couple good prospects away from becoming a team on the rise and with this botched pick, we're set back by another year of sucking and picking high just to get a good prospect to make up for missing out on one in 2014.

 

It's easier to add the likes of Nylander later actually. 

 

People need to quit acting like we missed out on a future Sedin. Neither Nylander or Ehlers are likely future HOF players. 

 

Jake's going to take time. And that's OK. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by J.R.

[Toews]

54 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

It's easier to add the likes of Nylander later actually. 

 

People need to quit acting like we missed out on a future Sedin. Neither Nylander or Ehlers are likely future HOF players. 

 

Jake's going to take time. And that's OK. 

Arguing with yourself again? No one has said the bolded nor even implied it. People have talked about those guys being replacements, but that's hardly the same thing as claiming that they are HOFers or will win Art Ross trophies. Classic straw man.