Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[alfstonker]

2 hours ago, SilentSam said:

.. and how do you back your opinion up.?

 

Vey, got far more ice time than Virtanen ever has with Dejardins..    Green gives complete opinions on Virtanen.. and can give complete opinions on any of his players.  Desjardins can barely hum his way through a press conference.

Im sure JB had something to do with getting Jake ice time after the WJC,. Jake is a bigger investment to him.

While Jake has been in Utica, he has nothing but high praise for TG and the time he spends with his players on all aspects of their game.

Ever hear of Desjardins doing that?.. not even from his players.

Vey worked harder that was easy to see.

 

Who cares what gets said in a press conference. AV hardly said anything about players either. It's what happens behind closed doors that counts.

On JB, I doubt it but even if he did, as I said Desjardins was pumping Jakes tires from the first day back after the WJC that had nothing to do with JB it is what he is like.

 

I don't know what point you are making regarding Jake's "praise" for TG. If he wants to show his appreciation he needs to do it on the ice.

 

I have no doubt WD spends time talking to the rookies. Stecher implied it and I published an interview from one of the Dallas rookies saying how much he had helped him and others in the Texas team. Was it not WD who went out of his way to travel and meet Canucks players at their home when he took the job. You seem to forget the Canucks schedule is a hell of a lot busier than Utica's.

"

Bo Hor­vat likes Des­jardins’ bench de­meanour.

 

“I’d rather have a coach into the game and antsy and want his guys to get out there in­stead of be­ing laid back,” the third-year Canucks cen­tre says. “And I wouldn’t say he gets an­gry.

“He’s not one to yell right at you. He would tell you if you don’t do some­thing, there’s a con­se­quence. I’ve never seen a coach do it where you don’t feel in­tim­i­dated. He can yell at me if he wants. With cer­tain guys, you have to kind of feel it out, and he’s good at read­ing peo­ple.”

 

Here's a clip from his MH days which shows the kind of coach WD is.

"He poured time into moulding his young charges, often as they rode the bus from city to city: “They’d sit there, side-by-side in their seats,” says Shaun Clouston, Desjardins’s assistant in Medicine Hat. Half an hour would go by, then an hour—literally, two hours might go by and they’re still talking.”

 

"CEDAR PARK, TX – The Texas Stars, proud American Hockey League affiliate of the Dallas Stars, announced today that head coach Willie Desjardins has been named the winner of the Louis A.R. Pieri Memorial Award as the AHL’s outstanding coach for the 2012-13 season, as voted by fellow coaches and members of the media in each of the league’s 30 cities."

 

 

[SilentSam]

12 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

Vey worked harder that was easy to see.

 

Who cares what gets said in a press conference. AV hardly said anything about players either. It's what happens behind closed doors that counts.

On JB, I doubt it but even if he did, as I said Desjardins was pumping Jakes tires from the first day back after the WJC that had nothing to do with JB it is what he is like.

 

I don't know what point you are making regarding Jake's "praise" for TG. If he wants to show his appreciation he needs to do it on the ice.

 

I have no doubt WD spends time talking to the rookies. Stecher implied it and I published an interview from one of the Dallas rookies saying how much he had helped him and others in the Texas team. Was it not WD who went out of his way to travel and meet Canucks players at their home when he took the job. You seem to forget the Canucks schedule is a hell of a lot busier than Utica's.

"

Bo Hor­vat likes Des­jardins’ bench de­meanour.

 

“I’d rather have a coach into the game and antsy and want his guys to get out there in­stead of be­ing laid back,” the third-year Canucks cen­tre says. “And I wouldn’t say he gets an­gry.

“He’s not one to yell right at you. He would tell you if you don’t do some­thing, there’s a con­se­quence. I’ve never seen a coach do it where you don’t feel in­tim­i­dated. He can yell at me if he wants. With cer­tain guys, you have to kind of feel it out, and he’s good at read­ing peo­ple.”

 

Here's a clip from his MH days which shows the kind of coach WD is.

"He poured time into moulding his young charges, often as they rode the bus from city to city: “They’d sit there, side-by-side in their seats,” says Shaun Clouston, Desjardins’s assistant in Medicine Hat. Half an hour would go by, then an hour—literally, two hours might go by and they’re still talking.”

 

"CEDAR PARK, TX – The Texas Stars, proud American Hockey League affiliate of the Dallas Stars, announced today that head coach Willie Desjardins has been named the winner of the Louis A.R. Pieri Memorial Award as the AHL’s outstanding coach for the 2012-13 season, as voted by fellow coaches and members of the media in each of the league’s 30 cities."

 

 

we have opposite opinions AStonker..  Desjardins will go the way of Eakins..  A Coach will replace him who has and earns the respect of players, that only compounds 10 fold in return.

If Babcock can play prospects through their weaknesses and into their strengths, without the fear of losing a game, and understanding what development is, . Then WD could have as well.

Babcock isn't just respected because he is Coach, he earns it with players, and they return it 10 fold.

 

 

[WeneedLumme]

28 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

we have opposite opinions AStonker..  Desjardins will go the way of Eakins..  A Coach will replace him who has and earns the respect of players, that only compounds 10 fold in return.

If Babcock can play prospects through their weaknesses and into their strengths, without the fear of losing a game, and understanding what development is, . Then WD could have as well.

Babcock isn't just respected because he is Coach, he earns it with players, and they return it 10 fold.

 

 

You are implying that WD doesn't have the respect of his players. Do you have some actual Information that shows this?

[alfstonker]

29 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

we have opposite opinions AStonker..  Desjardins will go the way of Eakins..  A Coach will replace him who has and earns the respect of players, that only compounds 10 fold in return.

If Babcock can play prospects through their weaknesses and into their strengths, without the fear of losing a game, and understanding what development is, . Then WD could have as well.

Babcock isn't just respected because he is Coach, he earns it with players, and they return it 10 fold.

 

 

Firstly go read the article I posted on the Willie thread

Secondly Babcock's prospects are not the same as WHO (are you talking about) LaBate, Cassels, Subban Grenier? Don't make me laugh, you can't even make a reasonable comparison between these prospects and what Babcock has at his disposal. You don't seem to be dealing with a full deck.

[Butters Stoch]

1 hour ago, SilentSam said:

we have opposite opinions AStonker..  Desjardins will go the way of Eakins..  A Coach will replace him who has and earns the respect of players, that only compounds 10 fold in return.

If Babcock can play prospects through their weaknesses and into their strengths, without the fear of losing a game, and understanding what development is, . Then WD could have as well.

Babcock isn't just respected because he is Coach, he earns it with players, and they return it 10 fold.

 

 

Shanahan and co. have basically given Babcock the green light to prioritize young player development over going all out for a win for the team vets. Meanwhile JB thinks that we have a playoff team so WD's main job is to squeeze out every win we can instead of using ice time to develop unproven young guys like Jake for the future. Blame upper management before thinking the coach is the problem. Why would WD want to risk losing his current job for the sake of this team's future that he might not even be a part of?

[SilentSam]

@alfstonker @WeneedLumme @Butters Stoch

My Mistake.

Thought this was the Virtanen Thread..   Not the "Keep Willie Forever" Thread,. Which maybe you guys should start?

 

Virtanen will be fine, he is with the right Coach.. now.   That will prove to be obvious.

 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

@alfstonker @WeneedLumme @Butters Stoch

My Mistake.

Thought this was the Virtanen Thread..   Not the "Keep Willie Forever" Thread,. Which maybe you guys should start?

 

Virtanen will be fine, he is with the right Coach.. now.   That will prove to be obvious.

 

I agree Willie was obviously not the best coach for Jake.  

[WeneedLumme]

1 hour ago, SilentSam said:

@alfstonker @WeneedLumme @Butters Stoch

My Mistake.

Thought this was the Virtanen Thread..   Not the "Keep Willie Forever" Thread,. Which maybe you guys should start?

 

Virtanen will be fine, he is with the right Coach.. now.   That will prove to be obvious.

 

It's true that I shouldn't have responded to your post which had nothing to do with Virtanen, and was just one more "I hate Willie" post, which apparently are ok to post in any thread.

[SilentSam]

1 hour ago, WeneedLumme said:

It's true that I shouldn't have responded to your post which had nothing to do with Virtanen, and was just one more "I hate Willie" post, which apparently are ok to post in any thread.

I just don't see WD as the kind of Coach I was expecting in a rebuilding or retooling phase.

He has given too much time with certain players, and less or none to others.. it's never seemed like he has had a program for development, other than to use as replacements when injuries occur.

In the case of Jake,. I think you will agree he is better off in Utica, with a Coach who seems to have great player relationships.

Jake has noted this himself.

Whereas Virtanen noted his own confusion with Desjardins while he was here.

[WeneedLumme]

48 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

I just don't see WD as the kind of Coach I was expecting in a rebuilding or retooling phase.

He has given too much time with certain players, and less or none to others.. it's never seemed like he has had a program for development, other than to use as replacements when injuries occur.

In the case of Jake,. I think you will agree he is better off in Utica, with a Coach who seems to have great player relationships.

Jake has noted this himself.

Whereas Virtanen noted his own confusion with Desjardins while he was here.

I agree that Utica has been the best place for Jake this year. But I believe that it is the situation there that is more suitable for his development, rather than the coach. It would be the same even if the coaches were switched. Development of young players is a much bigger part of the farm team's coaches job than it is of the NHL coaches.

 

When that was WD's job, he did great. That's why NHL teams wanted to hire him. But now he is an NHL coach, who needs to win a decent number of games or he has no job. The same does not apply to the farm team coach, whose job security is based more on his ability to develop prospects than on his win/loss record.

Edited January 30, 2017 by WeneedLumme

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

I agree that Utica has been the best place for Jake this year. But I believe that it is the situation there that is more suitable for his development, rather than the coach. It would be the same even if the coaches were switched. Development of young players is a much bigger part of the farm team's coaches job than it is of the NHL coaches.

 

When that was WD's job, he did great. That's why NHL teams wanted to hire him. But now he is an NHL coach, who needs to win a decent number of games or he has no job. The same does not apply to the farm team coach, whose job is secure, win or lose, as long as he does a good job of developing prospects.

Like Babcock?  How come he doesn't have the same pressure to win now, and has more freedom to develop younger players?  

[SilentSam]

34 minutes ago, WeneedLumme said:

I agree that Utica has been the best place for Jake this year. But I believe that it is the situation there that is more suitable for his development, rather than the coach. It would be the same even if the coaches were switched. Development of young players is a much bigger part of the farm team's coaches job than it is of the NHL coaches.

 

When that was WD's job, he did great. That's why NHL teams wanted to hire him. But now he is an NHL coach, who needs to win a decent number of games or he has no job. The same does not apply to the farm team coach, whose job is secure, win or lose, as long as he does a good job of developing prospects.

 

25 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Like Babcock?  How come he doesn't have the same pressure to win now, and has more freedom to develop younger players?  

I agree with Alf, as I brought Babcock up as well.

The only pressure on winning in the development phase, will come from a Coach that wishes to apply that pressure.

I think the emphasis on winning has been wasted at the expense of development.

Have never heard a word of a  "win" campaign  from management. Desjardins was brought in to develop, as this was his strength apparently.

This now leaves us waiting for the arrival of others,. Boeser Demko Joulevi.

 LaBate, Pedan, Subban, Mceneney, Zaleweski, Grenier.. should have been given fair rotation this year, and last year when possible.

I hope we see Jake again if we get a playoff appearance.

[alfstonker]

11 hours ago, Alflives said:

I agree Willie was obviously not the best coach for Jake.  

Don't be silly.

The right coach for Jake would have been his Dad, who could have put an end to the high life and seen to it that he turned up in the same condition he left at the end of last season - instead we got a lardy ass out of condition boy who could barely do an after game interview because he was still sucking air through his backside.

[alfstonker]

7 hours ago, Alflives said:

Like Babcock?  How come he doesn't have the same pressure to win now, and has more freedom to develop younger players?  

Honestly are you serious?

Firstly Babcock has a much higher grade of prospect and most have even spent time in the AHL or equivalent. Are you comparing these players with the likes of Subban, LaBate, Cassels, Grenier?

Secondly the last time I looked we were developing young players. We have seen Horvat, Baertschi, Granlund, Stecher, Hutton, Tryamkin, Gaunce and we might have had McCann if he hadn't been traded because unlike Jake he turned up ready to play in Florida.

 

Instead of posting ludicrous ill thought out statements perhaps you can tell the rest of us who these Babcock players are, where they were drafted and how long they have spent in the A or another foreign or college league?

[alfstonker]

7 hours ago, SilentSam said:

 

I agree with Alf, as I brought Babcock up as well.

The only pressure on winning in the development phase, will come from a Coach that wishes to apply that pressure.

I think the emphasis on winning has been wasted at the expense of development.

Have never heard a word of a  "win" campaign  from management. Desjardins was brought in to develop, as this was his strength apparently.

This now leaves us waiting for the arrival of others,. Boeser Demko Joulevi.

 LaBate, Pedan, Subban, Mceneney, Zaleweski, Grenier.. should have been given fair rotation this year, and last year when possible.

I hope we see Jake again if we get a playoff appearance.

 

I can't make up my mind if it's just that you are ignorant of what has actually happened in Toronto or you are just deciding to ignore the differences to suit your ill thought out argument.

Leaving that aside, do you really think in the same circumstances Green would be accepting nightly losses just to develop AHL calibre players like Subban, LaBate, Zalewski, Pedan and Cassels?

Comparing them to Reilly, Marner, Matthews, Nylander, Brown, Carrick and Hyman makes you look like a fool.

[Bissurnette]

1 hour ago, alfstonker said:

 

I can't make up my mind if it's just that you are ignorant of what has actually happened in Toronto or you are just deciding to ignore the differences to suit your ill thought out argument.

Leaving that aside, do you really think in the same circumstances Green would be accepting nightly losses just to develop AHL calibre players like Subban, LaBate, Zalewski, Pedan and Cassels?

Comparing them to Reilly, Marner, Matthews, Nylander, Brown, Carrick and Hyman makes you look like a fool.

You are only the second person I have ever minused, and that is not because of your opinions. You are entitled to those. It is because you consistently choose to express your opinions by resorting to pathetic personal attacks on fellow posters. There's no need for that garbage.

[alfstonker]

1 hour ago, meh_wassup said:

You are only the second person I have ever minused, and that is not because of your opinions. You are entitled to those. It is because you consistently choose to express your opinions by resorting to pathetic personal attacks on fellow posters. There's no need for that garbage.

Whatever gets you through the day.  I don't think I'll lose any sleep, thanks for coming out.

[Bissurnette]

7 hours ago, alfstonker said:

Whatever gets you through the day.  I don't think I'll lose any sleep, thanks for coming out.

Really could not care less whether you lose sleep or not, I wanted to explain my minus in the hopes that you will lay off the personal insults.

Edited January 30, 2017 by meh_wassup

[ForsbergTheGreat]

11 hours ago, SilentSam said:

 

I agree with Alf, as I brought Babcock up as well.

The only pressure on winning in the development phase, will come from a Coach that wishes to apply that pressure.

I think the emphasis on winning has been wasted at the expense of development.

Have never heard a word of a  "win" campaign  from management. Desjardins was brought in to develop, as this was his strength apparently.

This now leaves us waiting for the arrival of others,. Boeser Demko Joulevi.

 LaBate, Pedan, Subban, Mceneney, Zaleweski, Grenier.. should have been given fair rotation this year, and last year when possible.

I hope we see Jake again if we get a playoff appearance.

Yeah TL has never said it's playoffs or bust.  He's always said focus on the future while attempting to make playoffs but playoffs don't take priority over youth

 

April 2015

Quote

“We’re trying to win. We’re trying to make the playoffs,” said Trevor Linden, the president of hockey operations. “We’re going to do everything we can to do that. Having said that, we have a firm eye on the future. We’ve got to do the right things. We’re going to continue to integrate young players into our lineup.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/canucks-look-to-retool-not-rebuild-after-elimination-from-playoffs/article24178879/

May 2016

Quote

Canucks president of hockey operations Trevor Linden, who held a less formal press conference after Desjardins and Benning met the media, said: “We’ve always said we want to make the playoffs, want to be competitive. But we’ve never taken our eye off the future. We’ve never mortgaged the future to make the playoffs and we’re not going to do that now.

“We knew we were going to have to go down this path and the risk we were going to run was exactly what we saw this year. That was always the scary part of it — you’ve got an older group, you know you’ve got to get younger, you know you’ve got to plan and develop the next core. And how that meshes together is the challenge. We were hoping for the best, and it didn’t work out this year.”

http://vancouversun.com/sports/hockey/nhl/vancouver-canucks/canucks-wont-sacrifice-future-to-make-playoffs-next-year-linden

 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

4 hours ago, alfstonker said:

Honestly are you serious?

Firstly Babcock has a much higher grade of prospect and most have even spent time in the AHL or equivalent. Are you comparing these players with the likes of Subban, LaBate, Cassels, Grenier?

Secondly the last time I looked we were developing young players. We have seen Horvat, Baertschi, Granlund, Stecher, Hutton, Tryamkin, Gaunce and we might have had McCann if he hadn't been traded because unlike Jake he turned up ready to play in Florida.

 

Instead of posting ludicrous ill thought out statements perhaps you can tell the rest of us who these Babcock players are, where they were drafted and how long they have spent in the A or another foreign or college league?

WD has openly admitted that this year he’s less focussed on development and more on winning.  He’s admitted that development vs winning doesn’t exactly run parallel paths. He’s admitted that last year, apparently the goal was more focussed on development of young players, (this focus likely started and changed when this team was hit with injuries, prior to those injuries development didn’t appear to be the main goal).  And finally, WD has admitted that sometimes having less focus on winning can benefit a team and gives young players a chance to develop more, as opposed to a purely winning focussed team.  He’s admitted that without injuries and a change in team goals, a player like Sven Baertschi likely isn’t on this team in 2017, because he wouldn’t have had the opportunity to develop him.

 

Quote

“The stage our team is in … it’s a touchy subject. Whenever you get into that discussion between development and winning, those are such polarizing subjects for everybody. I think the key to winning is having a vision and having a straight line. Knowing exactly where you want to go, it’s much easier to get there for everybody. It’s when (the line) goes back and forth, that’s where you can lose your way a little bit.”

“Last year, there were times people wondered: Why is this line starting in the offensive zone?” Desjardins said. “Maybe some guys are going: ‘This guy hasn’t won a draw and you’re putting him out there again?’ But you have to develop. We had to go through that year where we made development (a priority).

“If you look at a guy like Sven Baertschi, if our total focus is just on (winning) and he’s struggling, he probably doesn’t get to play and we lose him. We lose him. I truthfully think, in a strange sense, we had a good year for getting where we need to be. The ice time Tryamkin got at the end of the year, Horvat having to go against all the big guys, Baertschi getting to play, Hutton making the team, Jake (Virtanen) staying with the team, Markstrom getting to play down the stretch. There’s no part of me that thinks losing is good, but we got some things done that we needed to last year.

“This year, it’s a different story. Our road is way straighter, way straighter. Our vision now is in a line and all the players, all of us, are accountable to that vision. As much as people thought last year was a wasted year, there were a lot of good things that came out of that. Now we have put those good things in place this year.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/nhl/vancouver-canucks-coach-willie-desjardins-new-road-map-leads-straight-ahead-playoffs-or-bust

 

 

I think it’s pretty obvious to see that, WD believes the when the objective is to win he doesn’t have a the freedom to develop younger players, it becomes less of a focus of his and winning takes priority over developing.  Now the question is where is that direction coming from?  Is TL just blowing smoke with the quotes I provided in the post above? 

Edited January 30, 2017 by ForsbergTheGreat