Stormriders Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 5 hours ago, canuckledraggin said: Here's a small doom break. It's highlights from probably Jakes best game of the season. He is getting better. Thanks for posting this. First time I have seen so much footage of him in a single game. WOW ! Miles better than I have seen him play in any game lately, maybe since junior. Huge effort, skating miles, and pursuing the play, finally. He certainly raised his game level and can build off it going forward. Very encouraging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 11 minutes ago, Stormriders said: Thanks for posting this. First time I have seen so much footage of him in a single game. WOW ! Miles better than I have seen him play in any game lately, maybe since junior. Huge effort, skating miles, and pursuing the play, finally. He certainly raised his game level and can build off it going forward. Very encouraging. For sure. Now that the coach knows he can play that way he's gonna expect it every game. No more games where he gets zero shots and zero hits. When he's involved he can be a force out there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nergish Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 5 hours ago, canuckledraggin said: Here's a small doom break. It's highlights from probably Jakes best game of the season. He is getting better. I'm still not seeing a ton of "hockey IQ", but that speed is incredible. He's as fast as Mason Raymond but without the lingering fear of breaking in half! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeNiro Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 6 minutes ago, nergish said: I'm still not seeing a ton of "hockey IQ", but that speed is incredible. He's as fast as Mason Raymond but without the lingering fear of breaking in half! I would consider the ability to force turnovers good hockey IQ. I don't think he'll ever be a great playmaker though. He's going to either need to drive to the net himself or have his linemates feed him the puck in the slot. That's how he's going to get points. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Torts Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Poor kid, under so much pressure at his age. Hes trying, and its evident. Utica isn't exactly lighting it up right now but Jake is trying. If Bullvat was also rushing the zone with his speed a lot of those would go in. We tried rushing the kid and now people are calling him a bust. he'll be fine with Bullvat in a few years. Him, Bullvat and Boessniper will light it up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Alflives said: You make some good points. Yes, we are WAY BEHIND teams (like the Leafs) when it comes to our next core. With that I agree. But this creates the larger discussion on the philosophy of retool vs. Rebuild. Yes it does, I agree but what we are seeing on these boards including, with respect, from yourself is a deflection of our predicament unfairly onto a good coach. By that I don't mean what FtG is trying to make out i.e. that Willie and Babcock are under different instructions (they are not, they are both trying to win) but that Willie and JB inherited a prospect cupboard that was low calibre and pretty bare compared to what'd been building up in the Marlies along with some ageing vets who we are not yet in a position to offload. The knock on effect of that was there are players in the team who we might/would want to replace/ trade or demote who we can't, because the prospect replacements are not there YET. Compare that to the Leafs or BJs who virtually replaced most of their team from their own resources. So while JB has to wait for every draft to come round and Canucks fans have to hope he rings the bell almost every time Willie has no such luxury, because he knows the only way to develop and maintain the standards of the young talent he already has in the team is to attempt to keep winning, with the hoped for bonus of a playoff place. By the way that is no different from Babcock's intention because he too knows the best way to develop his young team is to keep winning and attempt to gain the playoffs. Why because the alternative is the Oiler's model. Willie's performance since he took over is as good, maybe better than Babcock's given the injuries he has had to endure. The reason he takes all the flack (apart from the low hockey IQ amongst Canucks bandwagoners ) is because Babcock made a reputation in Detroit where he was spoonfed from a conveyer belt of unbelievable talent while WD is a rookie who has a history of making gold out of coal but even the coal has become scarce here in Vancouver and what there is is pretty low grade at that. Edited January 31, 2017 by alfstonker 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Toews Posted January 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted January 31, 2017 27 minutes ago, alfstonker said: Yes it does, I agree but what we are seeing on these boards including, with respect, from yourself is a deflection of our predicament unfairly onto a good coach. By that I don't mean what FtG is trying to make out i.e. that Willie and Babcock are under different instructions (they are not, they are both trying to win) but that Willie and JB inherited a prospect cupboard that was low calibre and pretty bare compared to what'd been building up in the Marlies along with some ageing vets who we are not yet in a position to offload. The knock on effect of that was there are players in the team who we might/would want to replace/ trade or demote who we can't, because the prospect replacements are not there YET. Compare that to the Leafs or BJs who virtually replaced most of their team from their own resources. So while JB has to wait for every draft to come round and Canucks fans have to hope he rings the bell almost every time Willie has no such luxury, because he knows the only way to develop and maintain the standards of the young talent he already has in the team is to attempt to keep winning, with the hoped for bonus of a playoff place. By the way that is no different from Babcock's intention because he too knows the best way to develop his young team is to keep winning and attempt to gain the playoffs. Why because the alternative is the Oiler's model. Willie's performance since he took over is as good, maybe better than Babcock's given the injuries he has had to endure. The reason he takes all the flack (apart from the low hockey IQ amongst Canucks bandwagoners ) is because Babcock made a reputation in Detroit where he was spoonfed from a conveyer belt of unbelievable talent while WD is a rookie who has a history of making gold out of coal but even the coal has become scarce here in Vancouver and what there is is pretty low grade at that. I agree with you to an extent. Yes Babcock has had a better collection of young talent at his disposal. He has little choice but to play them because the veterans on the payroll like Laich, Greening and Michalek can't even crack the top 6 of their farm team. No doubt he tries to win every single game but he still puts the development of his young players as a higher priority than winning. This is the evident in the way he deploys his players. He even commented on it after the outdoor game against the Wings. The gist of it was that he could have sent out his best defensive center (Kadri) out there when the team was up a goal with just a little over a minute still left to play. The team was in shambles after allowing two successive goals but he sent his rookie line out there and his justification was that you have to put your players in a position to face the pressure of closing out a game. Ultimately they failed but Babcock hasn't stopped throwing them out there regardless because development takes priority over winning. I have voiced my displeasure of WD over his treatment of Jake but after getting all the facts in hand its hard to fault him for it anymore. Like Daniel said Jake isn't a professional yet. Willie has been attempting to get his team to play hard every single night. It doesn't send a good message when you are playing a guy that hasn't bothered to get into shape and doesn't quite work as hard as everyone else on the ice. For many fans including me Willie was a great scapegoat for the uninspiring play of a 6th overall pick and I think some are still not willing to deny that they were wrong about Willie at least in regards to Jake. You cannot deny that he has a done a good job getting the best out of Horvat, Baerstchi, Granlund, Tryamkin etc. which he should get credit for. I am no longer on the fire WD train anymore. I think he is a good coach for what the Canucks are trying to accomplish which is to develop young talent while remaining competitive. I am not averse though to finding a replacement for him when the time comes as I just cannot trust his decision making with the game on the line. In short I don't see him as an elite coach that can take this team to the next level. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 9 minutes ago, Toews said: I agree with you to an extent. Yes Babcock has had a better collection of young talent at his disposal. He has little choice but to play them because the veterans on the payroll like Laich, Greening and Michalek can't even crack the top 6 of their farm team. No doubt he tries to win every single game but he still puts the development of his young players as a higher priority than winning. This is the evident in the way he deploys his players. He even commented on it after the outdoor game against the Wings. The gist of it was that he could have sent out his best defensive center (Kadri) out there when the team was up a goal with just a little over a minute still left to play. The team was in shambles after allowing two successive goals but he sent his rookie line out there and his justification was that you have to put your players in a position to face the pressure of closing out a game. Ultimately they failed but Babcock hasn't stopped throwing them out there regardless because development takes priority over winning. I have voiced my displeasure of WD over his treatment of Jake but after getting all the facts in hand its hard to fault him for it anymore. Like Daniel said Jake isn't a professional yet. Willie has been attempting to get his team to play hard every single night. It doesn't send a good message when you are playing a guy that hasn't bothered to get into shape and doesn't quite work as hard as everyone else on the ice. For many fans including me Willie was a great scapegoat for the uninspiring play of a 6th overall pick and I think some are still not willing to deny that they were wrong about Willie at least in regards to Jake. You cannot deny that he has a done a good job getting the best out of Horvat, Baerstchi, Granlund, Tryamkin etc. which he should get credit for. I am no longer on the fire WD train anymore. I think he is a good coach for what the Canucks are trying to accomplish which is to develop young talent while remaining competitive. I am not averse though to finding a replacement for him when the time comes as I just cannot trust his decision making with the game on the line. In short I don't see him as an elite coach that can take this team to the next level. Good post. The only point I'd make and you made it partially yourself, is that Babcock is in a better position to make these decisions because he has 3 top five players in his rookie line whereas Willie hasn't that luxury and his team is still half in the 2011-15 era and half out. (for the reasons I described in my post) It always comes down to quality in the end and sadly WD hasn't the same calibre of young player available, now that we have scraped the barrel, to complete the rebuild and probably won't have for 2 years, by which time the Leafs will hope to be a playoff team. Don't write him off yet though. There are even now flashes of the kind of team we are striving for, we saw it against the Leafs, Ducks, LA and the Oilers in December. All coaches can get it wrong occasionally when the game is on the line, WD is new to the NHL but he seems to be a fast learner and no one works harder. Who knows we may yet have the makings of an elite coach, after all despite adversity, he has made a pretty solid start. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrible.dee Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, WeneedLumme said: I can hardly wait to see how AwfulD explains how Jake is really garbage and how Green doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. Seems like a lot of the haters here are unaware of how he's playing right now. Am I awful D? Hahaha! I like! Well, I do take requests for my greatest hits, so.... "I like the way he played tonight" = That's good "Real good game" = Even better "best game of the year" = Ever heard of a back-handed compliment?, Loss? no Points? For a top 6 difference maker prospect, this is his best so far? "He's had some games where he hasn't been effective" = Woah! Why so negative all of a sudden? Because green is doing a one-man good cop bad cop, It's coaching 101 he's trying to stroke Virts ego in one sentence and show him how to keep it going on through to a happy ending with the next one. This was about trying to burn into the players mind what the coaches expectations are. If the player in question was rolling along on track the coach wouldn't need to do stuff like this. This is, the kind of stuff coaches do with children. "We talked to him about that" = We...multiple people....talking to jake about what he's doing wrong......need I say more? "He was Physical tonight" "Effective around/with the puck" = All good "If he doesn't do that he won't be effective enough to play in the NHL" = HAHAHA! Are you kidding me? You must be joking if you are telling me you read this and thought it was a coach talking about how great one of his players is? The subtext to this statement and entire series of quotes is as obvious as Trumps hair piece. You do not say this stuff about a player who isn't in serious jeprody of washing out altogether. And this is where it stops being funny, because this quote from Green is about the worst thing we could have heard, it means Jake has not really gotten the message if the coach is poking him through the media with not-so-veiled warnings of what could happen if he doesn't square his S#$%T away ASAP it means Green is pulling out all the stops to convey a message that has yet to sink in, and that consequences could be coming sooner rather than later. Thank you....thank you very much (Awful D has left the building) Edited January 31, 2017 by terrible.dee 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 2 hours ago, alfstonker said: Good post. The only point I'd make and you made it partially yourself, is that Babcock is in a better position to make these decisions because he has 3 top five players in his rookie line whereas Willie hasn't that luxury and his team is still half in the 2011-15 era and half out. (for the reasons I described in my post) It always comes down to quality in the end and sadly WD hasn't the same calibre of young player available, now that we have scraped the barrel, to complete the rebuild and probably won't have for 2 years, by which time the Leafs will hope to be a playoff team. Don't write him off yet though. There are even now flashes of the kind of team we are striving for, we saw it against the Leafs, Ducks, LA and the Oilers in December. All coaches can get it wrong occasionally when the game is on the line, WD is new to the NHL but he seems to be a fast learner and no one works harder. Who knows we may yet have the makings of an elite coach, after all despite adversity, he has made a pretty solid start. I don't know if Willie will get next season, but if he's here then we will see how he does with rookie forwards like Boeser. Will he give Boeser the opportunities given by Babcock to his rookies this season? I like Willie. He seems like a really nice person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alflives said: I don't know if Willie will get next season, but if he's here then we will see how he does with rookie forwards like Boeser. Will he give Boeser the opportunities given by Babcock to his rookies this season? I like Willie. He seems like a really nice person. As with all rookies Alf I think it will be down to the player. Willie is not hard to please. Work your ass off as if your life depended on it and make as few mistakes as possible while learning from those you do make. Oh and turn up in game playing condition. Now as this is a Jake thread I will not be returning to these posts. However I would love to see Jake turn up ready to eat raw meat next season. He has the size we are desperately needing but it has to come with pro level application. There is no "play me first" and then "I'll get fit" it has to be the other way round. Edited January 31, 2017 by alfstonker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 15 hours ago, Alflives said: You make some good points. Yes, we are WAY BEHIND teams (like the Leafs) when it comes to our next core. With that I agree. But this creates the larger discussion on the philosophy of retool vs. Rebuild. There's no debate in the Canucks office, there is no tear down. Stonker doesn't realize that a win for us is a good as a win for the Leaves, no matter how good their AHL team is or how hard our guys have to grind. If our team turns out to be a tough playoff team (i.e. LA) I couldn't care less if they're a lunch bucket team the rest of the year and double flamingo nets 60. Its how hard you are to play against in the playoffs that matters. A lot of fans seem to be really pining over Nylander vs Jake (some revisionist history there, even Bob McKenzie had Jake over flamingo) but he had the benefit of about a season in the AHL as an 18 year old, something Jake was prevented from doing. The decision to keep Jake up last year wasn't a mistake - the choice was the WHL or up with the Canucks. One more WHL season wouldn't have done much for his development. Its only due to the stupid NHL/CHL rules that lets Euro players join the AHL at 18 ( Nylander played with MODO) . So Nylander jumped the cue and got his AHL time in ahead of Jake. Its not Babcocks brilliance that did that. I think if we had been able to put Jake in Uitca last year it he'd be on the big club this year. So sure, Mr. $50 million dollar coach is a peach, but if Nylander had been in the CHL he'd be in the same development boat as Jake. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 9 hours ago, nergish said: I'm still not seeing a ton of "hockey IQ", but that speed is incredible. He's as fast as Mason Raymond but without the lingering fear of breaking in half! maybe not this game but he's entering at will and is getting some decent chances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfstonker Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: There's no debate in the Canucks office, there is no tear down. Stonker doesn't realize that a win for us is a good as a win for the Leaves, no matter how good their AHL team is or how hard our guys have to grind. If our team turns out to be a tough playoff team (i.e. LA) I couldn't care less if they're a lunch bucket team the rest of the year and double flamingo nets 60. Its how hard you are to play against in the playoffs that matters. A lot of fans seem to be really pining over Nylander vs Jake (some revisionist history there, even Bob McKenzie had Jake over flamingo) but he had the benefit of about a season in the AHL as an 18 year old, something Jake was prevented from doing. The decision to keep Jake up last year wasn't a mistake - the choice was the WHL or up with the Canucks. One more WHL season wouldn't have done much for his development. Its only due to the stupid NHL/CHL rules that lets Euro players join the AHL at 18 ( Nylander played with MODO) . So Nylander jumped the cue and got his AHL time in ahead of Jake. Its not Babcocks brilliance that did that. I think if we had been able to put Jake in Uitca last year it he'd be on the big club this year. So sure, Mr. $50 million dollar coach is a peach, but if Nylander had been in the CHL he'd be in the same development boat as Jake. I agree with the part about Jake. However your second para bemuses me. I not only said both coaches were attempting to win but I referred to injuries affecting outcomes because we are poorly backed up at present, hence having to rely on A players. Of course a win is a win irrespective of which team is winning, I never said otherwise because that would be silly. I'm not convinced the decision was a mistake (it may have been) because Jakes play after the WJC was NHL level. He spoiled that progress by turning up out of condition - his doing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 8 minutes ago, alfstonker said: I agree with the part about Jake. However your second para bemuses me. I not only said both coaches were attempting to win but I referred to injuries affecting outcomes because we are poorly backed up at present, hence having to rely on A players. Of course a win is a win irrespective of which team is winning, I never said otherwise because that would be silly. I'm not convinced the decision was a mistake (it may have been) because Jakes play after the WJC was NHL level. He spoiled that progress by turning up out of condition - his doing. Ah ok. It just annoys me the amount of "credit" thrown the leaves way, particularly the abundant Jake - Nylander comparisons, when really it was CHL rules that allowed Nylander to develop faster. Ehlers might be the better comparison re: development, but he was really undersized in 2014 and needed to go back to the Q to bulk up, in the same way JB is treating Olli. OJ has the brains to be in the NHL by all accounts just needs more size and confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derp... Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 "A big-bodied power winger with the ability to physically dominate, making him a prominent forechecking presence every night. Possesses good hands that can be used to make crisp passes or to let loose accurate, NHL-level shots; paired with his strength and skating ability, his skill set allows him to contribute offensively, as well as create space for teammates." "A prototypical power forward with an impressive blend of size, skill and strength. He skates well for a big player and has agile feet. He bulls his way around the ice and has an impressive, erratic shot." "He is an excellent skater with a combination of quickness and agility topped of with great top-end speed. He still lacks consistency and either the will or vision to share the puck more instead of attempting to finish every play himself. He has a very dangerous shot as well as very good playmaking-ability. Thanks to his size, strength and brilliant puckhandling he can power through the defence on his way to the net." "A power forward with good size and strength. He is a very good skater, who uses strong strides to gain decent top-speed. Stands strong on his skates and is hard to knock of the puck. A good forechecker, who will battle along the boards and in front of the net for loose pucks. Reads the play well and has the abilities to intercept passes. Owns a hard shot and has very good scoring touch." Who do these sound similar too? Just saying that the tools Jake has are similar to a lot of other prospects. Some of which have very strange development paths. I wouldn't suggest that we undervalue his game, or overvalue it. It's probable he can become a good forechecking middle 6 winger with second unit PP time. I would love to see him learn how to PK well as his speed and size would be a big plus on the PK. http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=205155 http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=99036 http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=10866 http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=17679 SIDE NOTE: Would anyone be that mad if Jake ended up fitting this description, regardless of production? "A hard-nosed buzzsaw type winger with excellent mobility and a high-end release on his shot. In all three zones, he is assertive, with and without the puck. Whenever he is on the ice, he is either battling for puck possession or creating a buzz offensively. He is an undeniably good finisher, but could stand to be a bit quicker with his passes. Defensively his two-way game shines as he reads the opposition ahead of the play and positions himself well to get in passing and shooting lanes. He proactively transitions to offence quickly and uses his speed to give himself time and space. Exceptional decision making stands out as a big part of what makes him successful in many roles. He is a complete and versatile winger that has the proven capacity to be a positive difference-maker in all three zones." http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=2368 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ReggieBush Posted January 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted January 31, 2017 Can we just let the kid play? He has talent and physical tools that we have not seen around here in a long time. He is young, the production will come in due time. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dekey Pete Posted January 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted January 31, 2017 30 minutes ago, Derp... said: "A big-bodied power winger with the ability to physically dominate, making him a prominent forechecking presence every night. Possesses good hands that can be used to make crisp passes or to let loose accurate, NHL-level shots; paired with his strength and skating ability, his skill set allows him to contribute offensively, as well as create space for teammates." "A prototypical power forward with an impressive blend of size, skill and strength. He skates well for a big player and has agile feet. He bulls his way around the ice and has an impressive, erratic shot." "He is an excellent skater with a combination of quickness and agility topped of with great top-end speed. He still lacks consistency and either the will or vision to share the puck more instead of attempting to finish every play himself. He has a very dangerous shot as well as very good playmaking-ability. Thanks to his size, strength and brilliant puckhandling he can power through the defence on his way to the net." "A power forward with good size and strength. He is a very good skater, who uses strong strides to gain decent top-speed. Stands strong on his skates and is hard to knock of the puck. A good forechecker, who will battle along the boards and in front of the net for loose pucks. Reads the play well and has the abilities to intercept passes. Owns a hard shot and has very good scoring touch." Who do these sound similar too? Just saying that the tools Jake has are similar to a lot of other prospects. Some of which have very strange development paths. I wouldn't suggest that we undervalue his game, or overvalue it. It's probable he can become a good forechecking middle 6 winger with second unit PP time. I would love to see him learn how to PK well as his speed and size would be a big plus on the PK. http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=205155 http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=99036 http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=10866 http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=17679 SIDE NOTE: Would anyone be that mad if Jake ended up fitting this description, regardless of production? "A hard-nosed buzzsaw type winger with excellent mobility and a high-end release on his shot. In all three zones, he is assertive, with and without the puck. Whenever he is on the ice, he is either battling for puck possession or creating a buzz offensively. He is an undeniably good finisher, but could stand to be a bit quicker with his passes. Defensively his two-way game shines as he reads the opposition ahead of the play and positions himself well to get in passing and shooting lanes. He proactively transitions to offence quickly and uses his speed to give himself time and space. Exceptional decision making stands out as a big part of what makes him successful in many roles. He is a complete and versatile winger that has the proven capacity to be a positive difference-maker in all three zones." http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=2368 will you look at Nino's first two seasons on the islander's and how he's turned it around. 1 point in 55 games and a -29? Can you imagine the reaction here if he was one of our prospects? 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post terrible.dee Posted January 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted January 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Alflives said: I don't know if Willie will get next season, but if he's here then we will see how he does with rookie forwards like Boeser. Will he give Boeser the opportunities given by Babcock to his rookies this season? I like Willie. He seems like a really nice person. One thing in Wille's favor is the way this team keeps pulling out of fatal nose dive every time it seems they are ready to crash and burn, we were even in a playoff spot there for as minutes weren't we? That isn't a team who hates their coach, with Torts the team was sooo demoralized, you could see everyone only wanted the season to be OVER so they could all get away from the horrible toxic atmosphere, same thing when Keenan was here, the aura of negativity was so thick. Doesn't seem to be the case with Wille, and these win streaks they keep going on are the mark of a team who wants to keep thier coach. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrible.dee Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 42 minutes ago, ReggieBush said: Can we just let the kid play? He has talent and physical tools that we have not seen around here in a long time. He is young, the production will come in due time. the whole reason for this discussion is that there are signs it will not come, very real ones Nobody had a problem letting Horvat play, most of us wanted him in the minors his first year and to be more patient, same with Jake and Mr. Personallity, Nobody is screaming to get Julevi or Boesser in here this season, this fan base is more patient than we get credit for Jake is a totally different issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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