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Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW


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14 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

Yup. Even if he doesn't rack up a lot of points, if he's throwing his trademark devastating hits without getting caught out of position, and drawing more penalties than he's taking, he's worth having in the lineup.

Sure...but that's a consolation prize. Fact is this guy was chosen 6th overall! At that position we need something more than "worth having in the lineup"...especially considering the great talents from that draft that we didn't pick.

 

It may be safe to say he will be an NHL player...it also seems safe to say he is a bust for a 6th overall pick.

 

This team can't afford to miss in first round picks.

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8 minutes ago, CupIsComing said:

Sure...but that's a consolation prize. Fact is this guy was chosen 6th overall! At that position we need something more than "worth having in the lineup"...especially considering the great talents from that draft that we didn't pick.

 

It may be safe to say he will be an NHL player...it also seems safe to say he is a bust for a 6th overall pick.

 

This team can't afford to miss in first round picks.

If he keeps moving along his current track, I have no worries that he's going to be a very effective player

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13 minutes ago, stawns said:

Don't be so sure.  Nylander was able to go to the AHL in his draft+1, while Jake stayed in Jr.  He then played again the next year, in a much bigger role, while Jake had to stay parked in Van.  It's a huge advantage.

I think some of you guys are putting to much importance in this. Yeah it would be nice to have a guy develop in the AHL but Patrick would probably be our 4th line centre anyways. Patrick has had injuries but he's got Getzlaf type upside. You don't pass on that if he's fully recovered. Hischier is an exciting player but I have my doubts he will even end up a centre at the NHL level. 

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9 minutes ago, CupIsComing said:

Sure...but that's a consolation prize. Fact is this guy was chosen 6th overall! At that position we need something more than "worth having in the lineup"...especially considering the great talents from that draft that we didn't pick.

 

It may be safe to say he will be an NHL player...it also seems safe to say he is a bust for a 6th overall pick.

 

This team can't afford to miss in first round picks.

I posted this in another thread.

 

it's worth reading again when people keep using the word bust on our first honest top 10 pick in almost 20 years

 

""Over the last decade If I recall, almost a full 40% of players drafted in the top ten have either busted, flamed out or become less productive than their draft positions dictate they should

 

Keeping in mind over the last decade again If I recall correctly, the teams choosing in the top 10 have remained fairly consistent.  So while people may flame question or decry the Virtanen pick, how do you think teams that have picked consistently in the top 10 over the last 10 years feel knowing that at least 3 to 4 of their picks have not produced to their draft numbers.  At least by CDC's measure""

 

The reason this is important is that while people keep endlessly using the word bust.  he isn't.  Yet.  But he has a long road to go.  Are you aware that a large percentage of top 10 picks struggle to even become productive middle top 6 players?  The majority of them instead become middle to bottom 6 by the numbers.

 

After a decade and more of strong teams and shoddy drafting/development.  I don't care where a player is picked or the type of player they become so long as they become a bonafide NHL player period.

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1 minute ago, messier's_elbow said:

I think some of you guys are putting to much importance in this. Yeah it would be nice to have a guy develop in the AHL but Patrick would probably be our 4th line centre anyways. Patrick has had injuries but he's got Getzlaf type upside. You don't pass on that if he's fully recovered. Hischier is an exciting player but I have my doubts he will even end up a centre at the NHL level. 

I disagree, completely.  Its a huge advantage for European kids to start their pro players, playing against men up to two years earlier than kids from the CHL.  Where would make be if Green was able to start working with him at 18 or 19?

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2 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I posted this in another thread.

 

it's worth reading again when people keep using the word bust on our first honest top 10 pick in almost 20 years

 

""Over the last decade If I recall, almost a full 40% of players drafted in the top ten have either busted, flamed out or become less productive than their draft positions dictate they should

 

Keeping in mind over the last decade again If I recall correctly, the teams choosing in the top 10 have remained fairly consistent.  So while people may flame question or decry the Virtanen pick, how do you think teams that have picked consistently in the top 10 over the last 10 years feel knowing that at least 3 to 4 of their picks have not produced to their draft numbers.  At least by CDC's measure""

 

The reason this is important is that while people keep endlessly using the word bust.  he isn't.  Yet.  But he has a long road to go.  Are you aware that a large percentage of top 10 picks struggle to even become productive middle top 6 players?  The majority of them instead become middle to bottom 6 by the numbers.

 

After a decade and more of strong teams and shoddy drafting/development.  I don't care where a player is picked or the type of player they become so long as they become a bonafide NHL player period.

Yet another reason to have a 19, or even 20 year old draft.  I don't understand why the NHL drafts kids like that.

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10 hours ago, bp79 said:

When did I say that that jake would push out Sutter for A job. If you would actually read what I said all this is based on us landing one of the top 2 centres in the draft Who will both be in the Nhl next year. Especially here where we need to sell tickets.

 

Not once did I say Granny was A better at centre. you have no idea tf if Dahlen will be ready. Just like you have no idea if Jake will be on the team as do I  You have clearly decided that you are right I am wrong. so be it If we land Nolan or Nico who are both who are centres Where are they gonna play?

 

I am the one that said from the start my theory was based on us picking top 2 and the fact JB said he is going to improve our top 6 this year. 

You are a typical tanker who wants to ice a $&!# lineup quoting things I never said. 

JB has clearly said, he is going to improve the top 6.

He also said any young guy will have room made for him.

I have no shiny new car syndrome. I'm the one who sticks up for Sutter and Edler go read some of my prior posts.

I am simply saying if JB lands a top 6 centre and we happen to draft one that would leave Sutter the odd man out as much as I like him. Even tho most people think he is terrible I don't. 

Please, don;t assume things about me not once have I resorted to pettiness you could at least show the same respect.

 

Do you have his quote?

All I heard is that they were going to try and bring in complementary pieces.  It sounded very different from last year where now the focus seems to be about development.  Linden told Willis that Boeser is expected to spend time in Utica next year - they want to develop players there and they will only make the team if they are ready.  

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9 minutes ago, stawns said:

Yet another reason to have a 19, or even 20 year old draft.  I don't understand why the NHL drafts kids like that.

Many years ago a junior player(Ken Linseman?) and his agent took the league to court and it was decided either by the court or by the league and NHLPA to lower the age of the draft . The  previous older age draft had a conflict with labour law.

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43 minutes ago, CupIsComing said:

Sure...but that's a consolation prize. Fact is this guy was chosen 6th overall! At that position we need something more than "worth having in the lineup"...especially considering the great talents from that draft that we didn't pick.

 

It may be safe to say he will be an NHL player...it also seems safe to say he is a bust for a 6th overall pick.

 

This team can't afford to miss in first round picks.

Actually it's NOT safe to say he's a bust. Many players take longer to develop. Have you noticed how Kassian is playing lately? Forget McJesus, where do you think the Oilers would be without Kass? Try down 3 games to none. 

 

Or maybe check to see what the only 2 players to ever win Art Ross trophies in Canucks uniforms were doing when they were In their early 20's. Many short sighted people were calling the twins busts when they were years older than Jake is right now. 

 

The "worth having in the lineup" was referring to the way he is playing right now. A few years from now I expect Jake to be extremely valuable.

Edited by WeneedLumme
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1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

I posted this in another thread.

 

it's worth reading again when people keep using the word bust on our first honest top 10 pick in almost 20 years

 

""Over the last decade If I recall, almost a full 40% of players drafted in the top ten have either busted, flamed out or become less productive than their draft positions dictate they should

 

Keeping in mind over the last decade again If I recall correctly, the teams choosing in the top 10 have remained fairly consistent.  So while people may flame question or decry the Virtanen pick, how do you think teams that have picked consistently in the top 10 over the last 10 years feel knowing that at least 3 to 4 of their picks have not produced to their draft numbers.  At least by CDC's measure""

 

The reason this is important is that while people keep endlessly using the word bust.  he isn't.  Yet.  But he has a long road to go.  Are you aware that a large percentage of top 10 picks struggle to even become productive middle top 6 players?  The majority of them instead become middle to bottom 6 by the numbers.

 

After a decade and more of strong teams and shoddy drafting/development.  I don't care where a player is picked or the type of player they become so long as they become a bonafide NHL player period.

Agreed many first rounders never become regular NHL players, but there are clearly some in every first round that do. Even more important with our limited first round picks that we pick in the 30-40% that you mentioned. According to you if JV doesn't make it it is to be expected (60-70% chance)...so my disappointment in his progression is to be expected.

 

Good for you that you are satisfied as long as a first round player contributes to the team eventually. I expect more from our management group and our players. Do I expect every chioice will be a winner...no. But relative to what ws available...I have no problem declaring (even this early) that JV is a first round bust.

 

Lastly, regardless if JV becomes a regular NHL player or not,  the sole fact that his NHL career will be 200 or so games less than his first round draft cohorts means relatively less value for his team. Again..in hindsight sure...but I consider JV a first round bust.

 

 

 

 

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Just now, WeneedLumme said:

Actually it's NOT safe to say he's a bust. Many players take longer to develop. Have you noticed how Kassian is playing lately? Forget McJesus, where do you think the Oilers would be without Kass? Try down 3 games to none. Or maybe check to see what the only 2 players to ever win Art Ross trophies in Canucks uniforms were doing when they were In their early 20's.

 

Many short sighted people were calling the twins busts when they were years older than Jake is right now. The "worth having in the lineup" was referring to the way he is playing right now. A few years from now I expect Jake to be extremely valuable.

I think your wrong on the bolded....I expect next year to be a real growth year for Jake and 1.5 years from now he will be coming on like gangbusters!  It seems he is starting to get it and once the lights start coming on things start progressing faster...hopefully exponentially faster.

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19 minutes ago, stawns said:

I disagree, completely.  Its a huge advantage for European kids to start their pro players, playing against men up to two years earlier than kids from the CHL.  Where would make be if Green was able to start working with him at 18 or 19?

Jake should have been in junior last year developing his offensive game and recovering from shoulder surgery, but I digress. 

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1 minute ago, messier's_elbow said:

Jake should have been in junior last year developing his offensive game and recovering from shoulder surgery, but I digress. 

There was, obviously, something of issue with The Hitmen and Can.  They wouldn't have kept him in the NHL otherwise, imo.

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31 minutes ago, stawns said:

I disagree, completely.  Its a huge advantage for European kids to start their pro players, playing against men up to two years earlier than kids from the CHL.  Where would make be if Green was able to start working with him at 18 or 19?

Probably the same place as Gaunce, Shinkauk, Cassels, Mallet,Jensen all of whom were pretty high picks who seemed to be destined to be solid NHLes who have not been able to translate into much nhl success at alI  I really dont get this Green is such a great developer of our young players, Horvat, Hutton, Tryamkin, Boeser, Stecher played almost none at Utica. Green had Virtanen for a full year and while i do think he has improved he should be to the point where he should be ready to contribute to the canucks and that seems like a lofty expectation any time soon for Jake.

Who has played a significant amount of time in utica and became a solid player for us? Gaunce and his 1 goal and 5 assists in 77 games?

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14 minutes ago, stawns said:

There was, obviously, something of issue with The Hitmen and Can.  They wouldn't have kept him in the NHL otherwise, imo.

Yeah they obviously had bad coaching and management. It's too bad Jake wasn't on London or another good development team. Could have baked him properly. Oh well he seems to be on the right path now.

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17 minutes ago, Get real canuck fans said:

Probably the same place as Gaunce, Shinkauk, Cassels, Mallet,Jensen all of whom were pretty high picks who seemed to be destined to be solid NHLes who have not been able to translate into much nhl success at alI  I really dont get this Green is such a great developer of our young players, Horvat, Hutton, Tryamkin, Boeser, Stecher played almost none at Utica. Green had Virtanen for a full year and while i do think he has improved he should be to the point where he should be ready to contribute to the canucks and that seems like a lofty expectation any time soon for Jake.

Who has played a significant amount of time in utica and became a solid player for us? Gaunce and his 1 goal and 5 assists in 77 games?

 
 
 

I think it's a little unfair to put all the responsibility for the inability of those players to translate on Green. While the optics don't look great you have to consider Utica's talent level and how that is correlated with the Canuck's success and injuries the last 2 seasons. The last two years we've finished 29th and 28th place and have had extensive man games lost to injury and that directly affects the Comets as we draw their most responsible, highest scoring veterans to plug into the Canucks lineup. When the Comets had O'Reilly, Markstrom, Sanguinetti and co. 2 years ago, we saw some pretty good insulation for Shinkaruk and Gaunce but at that point, we had no real prospects in the system as Shinkaruk and Gaunce were in their rookie seasons. 

 

But I do agree with you that his track record hasn't been solid and that there are signs that he isn't a great "development" coach, in the sense that I've watched a lot of Comets games and he relies very heavily on his Veterans, often not trusting the young players to make the mistakes they need to make to have offensive confidence to be creative and score. Doesn't that kind of remind you of a certain ex-Canucks coach?

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18 minutes ago, Get real canuck fans said:

Probably the same place as Gaunce, Shinkauk, Cassels, Mallet,Jensen all of whom were pretty high picks who seemed to be destined to be solid NHLes who have not been able to translate into much nhl success at alI  I really dont get this Green is such a great developer of our young players, Horvat, Hutton, Tryamkin, Boeser, Stecher played almost none at Utica. Green had Virtanen for a full year and while i do think he has improved he should be to the point where he should be ready to contribute to the canucks and that seems like a lofty expectation any time soon for Jake.

Who has played a significant amount of time in utica and became a solid player for us? Gaunce and his 1 goal and 5 assists in 77 games?

Green had a bunch of plugs this year. It's a miracle they almost made the playoffs. Demko was a big reason for that but Green got what he could from a weak line up. 

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I just dont get the whole look what Green has done with our young players argument.  Talent in Utica has not been great and we havent had much success either but they do go together somewhat. Some of the players we sent there should at least be doing something in the NHL but none are ever really top flight AHL players. 

Just think Green being rewarded with one of a select few NHL head coaching position on his AHL work seems like a bad idea. 

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31 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Like who? Other than Markstrom and now Demko, what blue chip players has he even had a chance to develop that were in Utica long term?

 

They've all gone right to the NHL or are still in junior, college or Europe. 

People don't seem to see that.  Jb and TL had a development plan for all these young guys, but with injuries and their solid play, management had no choice but to keep them in Van.

 

Utica would have looked a lot better with Stetcher, Try, Hutton and Gaunce.

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