Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[JamesB]

On 5/5/2017 at 9:59 AM, mll said:

Bob McKenzie this mid-March on Virtanen.  At about 45:45.

https://soundcloud.com/tsn-hockey-bobcast/the-tsn-hockey-bobcast-episode-12#t=45:48

 

Great podcast. Thanks for posting it. And it captures almost everything that has been said about Virtanen's game in Bob McKenzie's usual understated way. He has a lot of credibility. And that was about as critical as McKenzie ever gets. He indicated the problem with picking Virtanen at #6 overall, the problem with playing him in the NHL as a 19 year old, and the problem with game. He was reasonably optimistic that Virtanen could become a decent NHL 3rd liner or, "worst case scenario" a 4th liner in the NHL. At this stage, either outcome would be fine with me.

 

2 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said:

I know. I wonder if they can build it up to protect it because if he can't hit he has to change his game. Like Hansen adjusted to it.

If JV could make his game more like Hansen, that would be great. He has the speed. The other thing he would need is consistent intensity -- go hard every shift, no mental lapses, always stay on the right side of the puck, etc. He will need to continue to improve his conditioning and not build too much upper body muscle (as guys with a lot of upper body muscle of course get tired faster given their higher weight to leg strength ratio). But other guys have made this kind of transition. Maybe he can too.

[Nigerian]

What really gets me about this pick is everyone talks about the the two forwards taken after Virtanen. What about the two forwards taken before in 18 yr old Sam Bennett and Dal Colle? Colle hasn't cracked the NHL and Bennett hasn't put up 40 pts in the NHL in 2, almost full, seasons. Both those players, imo, don't possess the skill of either Nylander or Ehlers. Also, both those players don't possess the physicality or speed of Virtanen. Are they busts? If Virtanen was gifted the minutes and linemates that Bennett was I guarantee he could've put up similar points to Bennett this year (26). 

[aGENT]

9 minutes ago, Nigerian said:

What really gets me about this pick is everyone talks about the the two forwards taken after Virtanen. What about the two forwards taken before in 18 yr old Sam Bennett and Dal Colle? Colle hasn't cracked the NHL and Bennett hasn't put up 40 pts in the NHL in 2, almost full, seasons. Both those players, imo, don't possess the skill of either Nylander or Ehlers. Also, both those players don't possess the physicality or speed of Virtanen. Are they busts? If Virtanen was gifted the minutes and linemates that Bennett was I guarantee he could've put up similar points to Bennett this year (26). 

Sorry, only Vancouver picked the wrong player. Just a terrible team all around. 

[Harvey Spector]

40 minutes ago, Nigerian said:

What really gets me about this pick is everyone talks about the the two forwards taken after Virtanen. What about the two forwards taken before in 18 yr old Sam Bennett and Dal Colle? Colle hasn't cracked the NHL and Bennett hasn't put up 40 pts in the NHL in 2, almost full, seasons. Both those players, imo, don't possess the skill of either Nylander or Ehlers. Also, both those players don't possess the physicality or speed of Virtanen. Are they busts? If Virtanen was gifted the minutes and linemates that Bennett was I guarantee he could've put up similar points to Bennett this year (26). 

Excellent points.  Burke should have been fired by now for picking 18 year old Sam Bennett over a stud like Ehlers.  What was he thinking?  And how does Snow keep his job after drafting a bust like Dal Colle over a stud like Nylander?  Virtanen actually has a higher ceiling than either of those two busts picked ahead of him.  So Benning at the very least should be able to keep his job for now.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Harvey Spector

[RakuRaku]

On Wed May 03 2017 at 6:48 PM, fanfor42 said:

Virtanen Will make the Canucks opening roster. His biggest detractor was Willy. Benning and Green and the fanbase want to see him play. 

Up to him if he can stay up. I'm betting yes with Green coaching him. 

Me too!! My boy Jake is gonna prove doubters wrong! I see him on the 3rd line with Sutter and Granlund, proving speed and grit!

[Get real canuck fans]

1 hour ago, Nigerian said:

What really gets me about this pick is everyone talks about the the two forwards taken after Virtanen. What about the two forwards taken before in 18 yr old Sam Bennett and Dal Colle? Colle hasn't cracked the NHL and Bennett hasn't put up 40 pts in the NHL in 2, almost full, seasons. Both those players, imo, don't possess the skill of either Nylander or Ehlers. Also, both those players don't possess the physicality or speed of Virtanen. Are they busts? If Virtanen was gifted the minutes and linemates that Bennett was I guarantee he could've put up similar points to Bennett this year (26). 

Bennett has 31 goals and 31 assists in 156 nhl games  and missed almost an entire year before that.  Jake has 7 goals and 7 assists in 65 nhl games. Michael Dal Colle had 15 goals and 26 assists in 75 ahl games this season and jake had 9 goals and 10 assists in 65 ahl games this season. Pretty sure if the draft was done again jake would be picked after all the players you mentioned. 

[messier's_elbow]

On 2017-05-04 at 7:55 PM, Butters Stoch said:

Yea he really tore it up in the AHL without Willy dragging him down eh. Let's just let him figure out the AHL first before rushing him in again.

Yeah partly cause Management played hot potato with his confidence. They are handling it well now,  but up until last season, Virtanen was developed poorly. By Calgary and the Canucks. 

[Butters Stoch]

2 hours ago, Nigerian said:

What really gets me about this pick is everyone talks about the the two forwards taken after Virtanen. What about the two forwards taken before in 18 yr old Sam Bennett and Dal Colle? Colle hasn't cracked the NHL and Bennett hasn't put up 40 pts in the NHL in 2, almost full, seasons. Both those players, imo, don't possess the skill of either Nylander or Ehlers. Also, both those players don't possess the physicality or speed of Virtanen. Are they busts? If Virtanen was gifted the minutes and linemates that Bennett was I guarantee he could've put up similar points to Bennett this year (26). 

Probably because we were in a more likely position to really draft Nylander and Ehlers than NY and CAL despite picking after them. If you followed the draft that year, the top 5 prospects were considered a tier above all the others and any GM picking someone besides those top 5 would've been considered insane at the time. In a way, we were blessed by not getting 5th pick or JB would've taken Dal Colle for sure and no one would blame him. Unfortunately, we didn't make the best choice out of the the "2nd tier" of prospects we could've picked from. I'm hoping that our crappy lottery luck this year is another blessing to help us avoid the top two consensus picks who might not pan out(I know it's unlikely but we gotta cope with it somehow), much like Yakupov and Murray, but we take an impact player this time.

[TimberWolf]

On 5/4/2017 at 8:22 PM, Dannydog said:

I seem to read a lot in CDC that Jake possess no or low hockey IQ. Has this ever been mentioned by his former coaches, team members, notable or distinguished journalists(if there is such a thing)?

 

 

It was a knock against him in his initial scouting reports. 

[Rob_Zepp]

On 5/7/2017 at 8:32 PM, Get real canuck fans said:

Bennett has 31 goals and 31 assists in 156 nhl games  and missed almost an entire year before that.  Jake has 7 goals and 7 assists in 65 nhl games. Michael Dal Colle had 15 goals and 26 assists in 75 ahl games this season and jake had 9 goals and 10 assists in 65 ahl games this season. Pretty sure if the draft was done again jake would be picked after all the players you mentioned. 

Yes, because points are all that matters and no one, ever, developed after they turned 19 or 20 and grew into their potential.  No one.  Ever.

 

Thanks for clearing up all the discussion on this prospect.   Clearly he should simply walk away from the game as any chance of improving and learning how to use his explosive speed, strong shot and strong torso at the professional level is clearly beyond all possibility.   No player EVER got better with time/teaching.   No player ever had unreal raw talent but had never learned to harness it and was then made to learn the defensive side of the rink for a year or two and then blossom.  Never happened before and so let's stop this discussion on this player as it now has all been said.

 

Gawd this board is painful to read sometimes!

[canucklehead44]

1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Yes, because points are all that matters and no one, ever, developed after they turned 19 or 20 and grew into their potential.  No one.  Ever.

 

Thanks for clearing up all the discussion on this prospect.   Clearly he should simply walk away from the game as any chance of improving and learning how to use his explosive speed, strong shot and strong torso at the professional level is clearly beyond all possibility.   No player EVER got better with time/teaching.   No player ever had unreal raw talent but had never learned to harness it and was then made to learn the defensive side of the rink for a year or two and then blossom.  Never happened before and so let's stop this discussion on this player as it now has all been said.

 

Gawd this board is painful to read sometimes!

I don't think the issue is Jake's NHL rookie point totals. The issue is the points he put up in the AHL this year.

Even if he put up Dal Colle numbers I wouldn't be so concerned, but right now it looks like his offensive upside is limited. I still think he can turn into a pretty good bottom 6 energy guy.

[N4ZZY]

no news on Jake. should that be a concern or not? lol. 

 

[73 Percent]

4 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

no news on Jake. should that be a concern or not? lol. 

 

No news is good news. I assume he's training hard at home. If he was in the tabloids I'd be concerned.

[Rob_Zepp]

33 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

I don't think the issue is Jake's NHL rookie point totals. The issue is the points he put up in the AHL this year.

Even if he put up Dal Colle numbers I wouldn't be so concerned, but right now it looks like his offensive upside is limited. I still think he can turn into a pretty good bottom 6 energy guy.

Points are points.   He wasn't sent to AHL to score - he was sent to learn how to play professional hockey.   He is not a "bottom six energy guy".   His "offensive upside" isn't limited it wasn't the focus of the assignment.   He is a raw talent who was a men among boys for too long as a junior and needs to learn how to play it a professional level but his innate speed, hands and other instincts that will allow him to score and create opportunities will not vanish.

 

The fixation on points here is amazing.  He could easily score 20 goals at NHL level next year - in fact it was arguable with better line options and playing time he might have had near that in his first  year at NHL level - but his overall game wasn't ready.   He went to AHL to learn how to play responsibly and the offense will not vanish from a guy who has those wheels and those hands.

 

Amazing lack of patience.   Give him a few years.   He is an unique talent and if he learns as much as he did this last year each of the next two, he will make the pick look brilliant.  

[saucypass]

12 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Points are points.   He wasn't sent to AHL to score - he was sent to learn how to play professional hockey.   He is not a "bottom six energy guy".   His "offensive upside" isn't limited it wasn't the focus of the assignment.   He is a raw talent who was a men among boys for too long as a junior and needs to learn how to play it a professional level but his innate speed, hands and other instincts that will allow him to score and create opportunities will not vanish.

 

The fixation on points here is amazing.  He could easily score 20 goals at NHL level next year - in fact it was arguable with better line options and playing time he might have had near that in his first  year at NHL level - but his overall game wasn't ready.   He went to AHL to learn how to play responsibly and the offense will not vanish from a guy who has those wheels and those hands.

 

Amazing lack of patience.   Give him a few years.   He is an unique talent and if he learns as much as he did this last year each of the next two, he will make the pick look brilliant.  

The point people are trying to make is that top 6 forwards who don't produce points are not top 6 forwards. If he can't score at lower levels, how can we expect him to score in the NHL? 

 

I think he needs time and that's okay. But it's not unreasonable to say he hasn't met reasonable expectations. 

[dpn1]

I am sure I heard something at some point that during the summer the players are not allowed to have the training staff tell them what  to do.  Or something along those lines.  Does anyone know anything about this? 

[theminister]

9 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Points are points.   He wasn't sent to AHL to score - he was sent to learn how to play professional hockey.   He is not a "bottom six energy guy".   His "offensive upside" isn't limited it wasn't the focus of the assignment.   He is a raw talent who was a men among boys for too long as a junior and needs to learn how to play it a professional level but his innate speed, hands and other instincts that will allow him to score and create opportunities will not vanish.

 

The fixation on points here is amazing.  He could easily score 20 goals at NHL level next year - in fact it was arguable with better line options and playing time he might have had near that in his first  year at NHL level - but his overall game wasn't ready.   He went to AHL to learn how to play responsibly and the offense will not vanish from a guy who has those wheels and those hands.

 

Amazing lack of patience.   Give him a few years.   He is an unique talent and if he learns as much as he did this last year each of the next two, he will make the pick look brilliant.  

There is also the truth that some players, counterintuitively, perform and produce better in the NHL than AHL.

 

This is usually because of the drop in level in talent, linemates out of position, and poor reads. This causes a lot of broken plays and scrambled sequences. 

 

Will Virts be one of those guys? We don't know but it's certainly possible. Especially so if he was being coached to cover his D assignment as a first priority when a play broke, so he could firm up that aspect of his game. A jump to the NHL talent may result in mire and higher quality scoring chances, albeit for and against.

 

I certainly wouldn't rule out 15 goals in 60 games next year.

 

[Rob_Zepp]

Just now, suitup said:

The point people are trying to make is that top 6 forwards who don't produce points are not top 6 forwards. If he can't score at lower levels, how can we expect him to score in the NHL? 

 

I think he needs time and that's okay. But it's not unreasonable to say he hasn't met reasonable expectations. 

Wow.   He DID SCORE AT LOWER levels.   Junior...right?   He also scored at NHL level given minutes and linemates was at a reasonable clip for an 18 year old.   He was NOT sent to AHL to score.   There were no offensive expectations on him in AHL.   He was not given that role nor given that to focus on.   Why is that so hard to understand?   There are a lot of lifer-AHLers who can put up a lot of points at that level but refuse to learn the game to allow them to take a next step.  All accounts were that Jake did was asked and was making great strides.  His shot count was decent and he was snake bit a few times but, again, he wasn't there to focus on scoring.

 

Until you see him put in a position that is meant for him to provide opportunities and goals, a spot that may come as early as this next season at NHL level, hold the pessimism.  

[saucypass]

44 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

no news on Jake. should that be a concern or not? lol. 

 

Actually quite happy to hear there are no news. Less to talk about means less media distractions. I am sure he's woring hard. Excited to see what he can do. 

[Rob_Zepp]

2 minutes ago, theminister said:

There is also the truth that some players, counterintuitively, perform and produce better in the NHL than AHL.

 

This is usually because of the drop in level in talent, linemates out of position, and poor reads. This causes a lot of broken plays and scrambled sequences. 

 

Will Virts be one of those guys? We don't know but it's certainly possible. Especially so if he was being coached to cover his D assignment as a first priority when a play broke, so he could firm up that aspect of his game. A jump to the NHL talent may result in mire and higher quality scoring chances, albeit for and against.

 

I certainly wouldn't rule out 15 goals in 60 games next year.

 

Good post and very accurate.